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Two School Shooting today's
Topic Started: Feb 15 2018, 01:39 AM (5,122 Views)
Tinny
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Is there an issue with working on both issues? You're not gonna reform the police at gun point at any rate, the militarization and training of the police to be fearful and treat the lands they patrol and protect as enemy territory is arguably a bigger issue than if you can defend yourself from the police.

As for school shootings, I've accepted Americans prefer an outdated amendment interpreted specifically to take away the state's abilities to defend themselves over protecting the lives of children, perhaps next generation will be better, and with hope continuous effort will change the culture in America to something more civilized.
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Mc Esse
Feb 28 2018, 10:55 PM
Alright so we can agree that there’s some corruption in the government. Yet you’re willing to submit to their protection.
See my topic for why that sort of paranoia is pointless http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/10021956/1/?x=30#new

You are already in their pocket in every way that matters, guns change nothing there.


And what protecting are these guns doing for all these children getting murdered? That's not the governments fault they don't plan hits on a new school every week, the toxic nature of your gun culture does that job on its own.
If you think gun control couldn't work you have to answer why it already does everywhere else.

There hasn't been a school shooting in the UK in over 20 years because last time we immediately changed the rules, now it's only gang members and the occasional thug that ever shoot anyone and criminal or not they're never so low as to go murder defenceless children.
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Mc Esse
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See now he’s putting words in my mouth to make himself look bright. First I asked him if we the people don’t have the right to defend ourself. Who is going to defend us. He says the cops. Then he says the cops are corrupt.

Mass shootings are on the decline. The US does not actually have the worlds most mass shootings. No kidding there’s more basket cases and gun crimes in the US than in England The USA have 4 times the population if not 5. Criminals can’t legally purchase a gun. States in the USA with stricter gun control laws have not statistically reduced crime. Gun control measures at large have proven to be not effective in reducing violent crime. The US btw does not have the highest rate of violent crime in the developed world. Most of the gun deaths you actually read about include suicides. Guns by the way. Save millions more lives than they take according to the FBI. Anywhere from 200000 to 3 million. Plus none of this matters because the 2nd amendment ensures your right to self preservation including firearms and yes that extends beyond muskets, including any high capacity or automatic guns that we’re around before the constitution existed like the belton flint lock. The pepper box revolver. The puckle gun.
Edited by Mc Esse, Mar 1 2018, 03:12 AM.
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See now he’s putting words in my mouth to make himself look bright. First I asked him if we the people don’t have the right to defend ourself. Who is going to defend us. He says the cops. Then he says the cops are corrupt.


I missed the part where I said they're all corrupt?

What is even your point? Who is going to protect us?

The people that DO? Who ends all these motherf***ers that shoot up schools? It is almost always the police because that is their job?

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Mass shootings are on the decline.


Has there not been like 20 this year already?

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The US btw does not have the highest rate of violent crime in the developed world. Most of the gun deaths you actually read about include suicides. Guns by the way. Save millions more lives than they take according to the FBI. Anywhere from 200000 to 3 million.


The important thing here to note is that it's not just "guns" saving people, most of those are probably the police, that's extremely vague.

Guns don't save people, people save people :lol:

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Plus none of this matters because the 2nd amendment ensures your right to self preservation including firearms and yes that extends beyond muskets, including any high capacity or automatic guns that we’re around before the constitution existed like the belton flint lock. The pepper box revolver. The puckle gun.


Which were all very uncommon and it was most definitely s***ty flintlocks that were largely used.
Please tell me why a single person who isn't law enforcement or military "needs" a weapon that can shoot this fast:



They're not technically automatic weapons but it barely makes a difference, it's a stupid technicality.
Pistols and bolt action rifles are all that should be available, and shotguns I guess.
There is absolutely no need for anything else unless your house gets ransacked by gang members every night or a legion of coyotes terrorises you. It's just ridiculous.
Give me a single reason why anyone "needs" one of those and no "Because they're cool as f***" doesn't count, that's a want not a need.


Also not seeing any citations there and we're literally just in the third month of the year, it's a bit early to say there's a decline. There was nearly one for every day of the year in 2016.

Explain it away with population counts and whatnot all you want but you're still justifying the murder of children over the right to own silly dangerous toys.
Edited by Steve, Mar 1 2018, 09:56 AM.
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Mc Esse
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What bothers me is the political grand standing. The virtue of the left. When their very position is evil. It’s evil. It’s evil to disarm law abiding citizens. Who do you think you are. Because someone did something bad. They think they have the right to strip me of my God given right to self defense. That’s. The problem with countries like Europe that’s the problem with countries that don’t recognize your rights coming from somewhere other than the government. You get the angry skeptic atheist angry at me now. guess what. The constitution recognizes that our rights were bestowed to us by God not by government. But these people don’t believe that. They think they gave you the right. And that’s why they think they can take it away. They think they can tell you you can’t defend yourself because someone did something bad in a school. It’s terrible. It’s sucks. The left always talks about coming together. How about they come together by shutting up and letting the bodies be buried before they start politiscing a crap legislation that they know won’t change anything anyways.


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Guns don't save people, people save people :lol:
. Thank you. Say that again
Edited by Mc Esse, Mar 1 2018, 10:17 PM.
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Mc Esse
Mar 1 2018, 10:13 PM
What bothers me is the political grand standing. The virtue of the left. When their very position is evil. It’s evil. It’s evil to disarm law abiding citizens. Who do you think you are. Because someone did something bad. They think they have the right to strip me of my God given right to self defense. That’s. The problem with countries like Europe that’s the problem with countries that don’t recognize your rights coming from somewhere other than the government. You get the angry skeptic atheist angry at me now. guess what. The constitution recognizes that our rights were bestowed to us by God not by government. But these people don’t believe that. They think they gave you the right. And that’s why they think they can take it away. They think they can tell you you can’t defend yourself because someone did something bad in a school. It’s terrible. It’s sucks.
God made guns now?

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The left always talks about coming together. How about they come together by shutting up and letting the bodies be buried before they start politiscing a crap legislation that they know won’t change anything anyways.


No.

I needs to be politicised NOW because the bodies are always God damn warm since this happens every few days or at least once a week, it's cocking ridiculous and nothing gets done about it.

"We shouldn't politicise this" solves absolutely nothing.

Also you can't really say that but go on and on about how it's your right to do this and that, your political right?
You don't get to wave a "You're not allowed to talk about this" banner and have everything go your way, there is blatantly a problem and if you can't agree with or even see that I'm not sure what to tell you.

Also you brought up the left, you politicised it plenty.


Why are you justifying children being murdered in defence of some vague threat you pretend exists?
Have you ever had to defend yourself with a gun? Really had to?


Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Guns don't save people, people save people :lol:
. Thank you. Say that again


I think what just happened there says enough.
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Mc Esse
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Quote:
 
Which were all very uncommon and it was most definitely s***ty flintlocks that were largely used.
:


What’s your point? Not to mention canons. Yes people had canons in their homes or wherever they called “home” so no the 2nd amendment doesn’t count for only muskets. Oh and by the way handguns are technically semi-autos. Revolvers to can be referred to as a semi - auto but that’s a stretch.

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God made guns now?
i said that? Seriously guys. Where did I say that I don’t think I implied it either
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Why are you justifying children being murdered in defence of some vague threat you pretend exists?
Have you ever had to defend yourself with a gun? Really had to?

I never justified it. I said it was terrible senseless act and it sucks. You can stage a bigger massacre by plowing your car or a truck into a crowd of people. Should we ban cars and trucks as well

Quote:
 
Guns don't save people, people save people :lol:
. Thank you. Say that again


I think what just happened there says enough
.
People kill people. I admire your double standards.
Edited by Mc Esse, Mar 2 2018, 02:30 AM.
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Daniel
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No, because cars serve an integral role in modern society and are used by the majority of the American population as a means of transportation. No one rides their AR15 to work. Additionally, the government has taken measures to deter or at least mitigate vehicular attacks, concrete barriers, diversion of traffic in heavy pedestrian areas, etc. How come when it comes to guns, we just have to sit around with our dicks in our hands? Because of your "God Given Right?". I very rarely post but honestly the entitlement and arrogance you've illustrated through your posts has left me dumbfounded.
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Mc Esse
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Daniel
Mar 2 2018, 05:58 AM
No, because cars serve an integral role in modern society and are used by the majority of the American population as a means of transportation. No one rides their AR15 to work. Additionally, the government has taken measures to deter or at least mitigate vehicular attacks, concrete barriers, diversion of traffic in heavy pedestrian areas, etc. How come when it comes to guns, we just have to sit around with our dicks in our hands? Because of your "God Given Right?". I very rarely post but honestly the entitlement and arrogance you've illustrated through your posts has left me dumbfounded.
That’s not true you can take the bus. You can walk.

Btw.. me being arrogant? I actually listened to your guys side of the argument. In case you didn’t notice.
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What’s your point? Not to mention canons. Yes people had canons in their homes or wherever they called “home” so no the 2nd amendment doesn’t count for only muskets. Oh and by the way handguns are technically semi-autos. Revolvers to can be referred to as a semi - auto but that’s a stretch.


Was there ever a school shooting where someone used a cannon and killed like 15 children?

The 2nd Amendment is outdated and being like 200 years old there's no way it fits in with modern society.
And handguns are still dangerous but they're in the realms of being okay considering they don't typically have much ammo in them and there's plenty that aren't ridiculously powerful.
You won't find someone performing a repeat of the Vegas shooting with a crappy .45 will you?

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i said that? Seriously guys. Where did I say that I don’t think I implied it either


God didn't make guns, God doesn't regulate guns either, that's our job. It didn't give people the right to snap and then easily go murder tens of people because their country values that right more than the people themselves.

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I never justified it. I said it was terrible senseless act and it sucks. You can stage a bigger massacre by plowing your car or a truck into a crowd of people. Should we ban cars and trucks as well


As above, cars actually have a point in existence, the whole infrastructure of a country depends on them, particularly trucks carrying around supplies. They are irreplaceable.
You certainly can mow down many people with them but it's a LOT harder to do, if you crash your car in to a wall it's f***ed you can't just keep going, with a gun all you need is another magazine and a good eye and that's another 30 people dead or injured.
Hardly the same.

And for the record right after that truck attack in Nice France immediately started setting up more barriers and whatnot to deter anyone who would try that again.
That also only happened what a couple of times, whereas mass shootings happen almost daily. The body count is way higher and far more tragic considering it's largely children getting killed.

Also that semi-recent car attack in New York only killed like 8 people, still awful of course but it's not like they could wipe out a whole building full of people in a big heavy vehicle that breaks quite easily.


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People kill people. I admire your double standards.


Ah explaining the joke ruins it but okay.
The joke was that you never blame guns for any problems so I turned that around and said guns don't fix any problems, people do.

If guns don't kill people they also don't save people.
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Mc Esse
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The problem with your argument is that after the attack in Nice. There were copy cat offenses. Any mad man can plow in a group of people anywhere. Anytime. On any street. There’s people litterally everywhere No infrastructure or barrier is gonna save them. So stop blaming the guns. We have the right to defend ourselves. Whether god said so or not. The second amendment albeit being old was written taking technology into consideration. That’s why the founding fathers were brilliant.

No kidding no one used a canaon to massacre a school. Were schools even around back then ? Real schools Besides the university of oxford :lol:


More massacres are committed with hand guns. Just to let you know
Edited by Mc Esse, Mar 2 2018, 10:42 AM.
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The problem with your argument is that after the attack in Nice. There were copy cat offenses. Any mad man can plow in a group of people anywhere. Anytime. On any street. There’s people litterally everywhere No infrastructure or barrier is gonna save them.


"can" but they don't? There's mass shootings almost every day, truck attacks like that are exceedingly rare and no you're completely wrong, barriers do a fine job.
Who can save you from a random gunman walking in to a movie theatre? There are no magic bullet shields and people with guns are easily mowed down before the safety comes off.

You make it sound like truck attacks are easy, they're not. You need a nice straight line, a bunch of people and time to build up momentum. Now that people know about them it's not hard to think "Hey that truck is going really fast what is it doing?"

Whereas any a***** with a backpack can just whip out an AR and destroy tons of lives.

They're not the same at all and clearly they're not the problem or they'd be happening every day too. If it's so easy to do that and the problem isn't related to guns, why are truck attacks not an every day occurrence...?

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More massacres are committed with hand guns. Just to let you know


Yeah and they should still be regulated more, every weapon should.


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So stop blaming the guns. We have the right to defend ourselves.


Defend yourself from what?? You act like everyone is constantly under attack over there. What is this invisible threat that only exists in America?

Children have the right to go to school without worrying that they're going to get shot, that's a bit more important than something that will likely never happen and again, you have no defence against someone who already has a gun pointed at you anyway.
Home defence is literally the only reasonable excuse to own a gun, the fact that people can open carry is ridiculous.
Edited by Steve, Mar 2 2018, 02:00 PM.
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Steve
Mar 2 2018, 01:17 PM
What is this invisible threat that only exists in America?
The funny thing is that it's guns. The pro-gun people are right that they need to protect themselves, but the way of doing it is not to bring more of the thing they need to protect themselves from into the fold, it's to limit the availability of them so it's no longer something that poses a danger (or at least, severely limits the amount of danger they pose).
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https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/02/us/central-michigan-university-shots-fired/index.html

Another one
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Mc Esse
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You make it sound like truck attacks are easy, they're not. You need a nice straight line, a bunch of people and time to build up momentum. Now that people know about them it's not hard to think "Hey that truck is going really fast what is it doing?"
what is that? Rocket science. A drunk can kill people driving a car. Come on mate. Everyone knows how to drive. Well.. don’t put emphasis on the word “everyone”

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Whereas any a***** with a backpack can just whip out an AR and destroy tons of lives.
you keep mentioning AR15s.. what’s your point exactly ? First of all guns are killing tools. So if you’re gonna ban one because you think they’re effective at killing. It’s not about the AR15. Its because you want to ban guns.


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They're not the same at all and clearly they're not the problem or they'd be happening every day too. If it's so easy to do that and the problem isn't related to guns, why are truck attacks not an every day occurrence...?

Way to go to keep score. Like I said. It’s because you want to ban guns.

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Defend yourself from what?? You act like everyone is constantly under attack over there. What is this invisible threat that only exists in America?


I don’t know. It could be anything. A burglar. A terrorist. A tyrannical government. Or you can use your gun help those who can’t protect themselves (that’s actually a quote from game of thrones season 7. But it’s incredibly true. In any case. Are those legitimate reasons? Or am just some country bee bop?

You clearly say home défense is a legit reason to own a gun be it not any gun. Why shouldn’t you be allowed to conceal carry and protect yourself and others outside ?

Edited by Mc Esse, Mar 2 2018, 10:57 PM.
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