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Yakon vs Android #17
Topic Started: Jan 22 2018, 03:39 PM (725 Views)
ahill1
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Who has got this, you guys?

#17 from the original manga made by Akira Toriyama, not this f***ed up version from Super, of course.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I'm going to have Piccolo weaker than the Base Saiyans, and definitely weaker than Vegeta. So by and far definitely weaker than Goku.

Which then puts Piccolo well above the likes of No. 17 at this point.

I have Yakon around Base Goku, and at the very least Base Gohan. Even if I had him weaker, that still leaves enough room for me to have him decently above No. 17 so, No. 17 better pull out out some of that BS DBS power out his butt, otherwise Yakon's going to eat him.
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ahill1
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EMIYA
Jan 22 2018, 04:01 PM
I'm going to have Piccolo weaker than the Base Saiyans, and definitely weaker than Vegeta. So by and far definitely weaker than Goku.

Which then puts Piccolo well above the likes of No. 17 at this point.

I have Yakon around Base Goku, and at the very least Base Gohan. Even if I had him weaker, that still leaves enough room for me to have him decently above No. 17 so, No. 17 better pull out out some of that BS DBS power out his butt, otherwise Yakon's going to eat him.
How strong do you have Piccolo in the Cell Games again? Also, are you going with a 50x SSJ multiplier?
Edited by ahill1, Jan 22 2018, 04:45 PM.
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+ Son-Goku
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孫悟空

I have Yakon around Goku's base level, so #17 should stomp.
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Dragon Ball Super: The Super Human
Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

ahill1
Jan 22 2018, 04:45 PM
EMIYA
Jan 22 2018, 04:01 PM
I'm going to have Piccolo weaker than the Base Saiyans, and definitely weaker than Vegeta. So by and far definitely weaker than Goku.

Which then puts Piccolo well above the likes of No. 17 at this point.

I have Yakon around Base Goku, and at the very least Base Gohan. Even if I had him weaker, that still leaves enough room for me to have him decently above No. 17 so, No. 17 better pull out out some of that BS DBS power out his butt, otherwise Yakon's going to eat him.
How strong do you have Piccolo in the Cell Games again? Also, are you going with a 50x SSJ multiplier?
I have Piccolo at his best, significantly weaker than Warm Up Goku who initially fought Cell.

I usually don't use a 50x amp for anything Boo Arc related but at the same time, I could and not much would change. The only real is difference is how much of a gap I have between CG Goku and CG Gohan. If I use a 50x amp, it just means I have to have a larger gap between the characters, which is certainly implied. If I use a lower amplification such a 10x, then I can lower that difference in gap.
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ahill1
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EMIYA
Jan 22 2018, 04:56 PM
ahill1
Jan 22 2018, 04:45 PM
EMIYA
Jan 22 2018, 04:01 PM
I'm going to have Piccolo weaker than the Base Saiyans, and definitely weaker than Vegeta. So by and far definitely weaker than Goku.

Which then puts Piccolo well above the likes of No. 17 at this point.

I have Yakon around Base Goku, and at the very least Base Gohan. Even if I had him weaker, that still leaves enough room for me to have him decently above No. 17 so, No. 17 better pull out out some of that BS DBS power out his butt, otherwise Yakon's going to eat him.
How strong do you have Piccolo in the Cell Games again? Also, are you going with a 50x SSJ multiplier?
I have Piccolo at his best, significantly weaker than Warm Up Goku who initially fought Cell.

I usually don't use a 50x amp for anything Boo Arc related but at the same time, I could and not much would change. The only real is difference is how much of a gap I have between CG Goku and CG Gohan. If I use a 50x amp, it just means I have to have a larger gap between the characters, which is certainly implied. If I use a lower amplification such a 10x, then I can lower that difference in gap.
But, if you use a 50x multiplier, wouldn't you have Piccolo 50x weaker than the Boo saga Super Saiyajins and that way have to 'lowball' Piccolo to astounding levels? If no, could you show me how having Gohan in the Cell Games really strong would prevent such?

Also, going with the base Saiyajins in the Boo saga > Piccolo and a 50x multiplier, wouldn't that make Cell Games Piccolo closer to CG base Vegeta than to SSJ Vegeta? I don't think that works very well.

I am not saying base > Piccolo doesn't have evidence behind it, it does, but executing such becomes a problem, unless one wanna have a 1.5x SSJ multiplier or low ball CGs Piccolo to below Semi Cell, the former which is more of a problem than the first one, which would also find problems considering the Kaioken technique that Goku has and yet became obsolete.
Edited by ahill1, Jan 22 2018, 06:17 PM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

All you got to is just have Gohan significantly stronger than everyone else in the Cell Games. People like Goku and Vegeta will ultimately come to close that gap later on in the Boo Arc while Piccolo remains relatively stagnant. If that means Gohan needs to be 50x stronger than Goku or something so be it. As long as gaps remain relatively uncertain, the possibility are endless.

And as I think the amplification for SSJ decrease significantly during the Boo Arc, I don't even technically need Gohan to be all that more powerful.
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GreatSaiyaman123
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Yakon eats him alive. Shin is leagues above Piccolo, but wanted no piece of Yakon without the Saiyans' help.
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Thiln
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Yakon appeared to be within the realm of giving a good opposable challenge to Base Goku. If we're discounting Super then the presumptive standards of DBZ original should apply here. My own estimates has Base Teen Gohan at this time being comparable with #17. Goku would be closer to #16 than the twins and Yakon was keeping him on his toes. So in conclusion I would say that Yakon takes this in a similar manner to Imperfect Cell easily crippling #17.
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ahill1
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EMIYA
Jan 22 2018, 06:29 PM
If that means Gohan needs to be 50x stronger than Goku or something so be it.
No offense, but I laughed at this.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Give me one quote that says Gohan can't be.

There are several statements saying that Piccolo is both weaker than Kaioshin (who likewise is shocked at the Base Saiyans) and the Base Saiyans themselves. It was Piccolo who was called trash and turned to stone while Goku, Gohan and Vegeta were expressed to have marvelous energy. Piccolo from the moment he stepped out of the ROSAT was essentially treated as trash and the inferior being even before the Boo Arc came around.

The absolute best he could have been at the time is weaker than Warm Up Goku because we can be nearly certain he wasn't going to be stronger than that. We don't even need him to be stronger than Initial Perfect cell or anything. We can put him on Semi-Cell, or even Imperfect Cell. That's because the only thing we know about his fight with the Juniors in the manga is that he's doing better than Goku and the humans.

Which isn't saying much, especially when we never see Piccolo's fight in the manga. I can just as easily put him anywhere and have several gaps between him and everyone else. Gaps that people like Goku and Vegeta will ultimately close in the later Arc.
Edited by EMIYA, Jan 22 2018, 11:22 PM.
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ahill1
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Ok, but the 50x tibit was just a hyperbole, right?
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I think there's indirect evidence that the amplification for Super Saiyan is not as large as it was in the Freeza Arc. It may have even been smaller even before the Boo Arc came around. We know it's 50x during Freeza because it numerically has to be but once numbers stopped being a thing, anything goes. However as long as the gaps between Piccolo, the Saiyans, Gohan and all that remain as relatively vague as they do, that 50x still works, even if it seems outlandish in size.

I mean 100% Freeza being nearly 50x stronger than Base Goku is outlandish but that's clearly the case. So even if I don't necessarily use a 50x amp myself, until proper indication is given either with numbers or quotes, I can't deny it, no matter how outlandish it seems in terms of numbers or size. There's a lot of aspects, notably in the manga that leaves, once again, several things vague.

Piccolo is one of them. Many people want him to be near the Cell Juniors. Frankly, there's nothing wrong with that when there's indication that the SSJ amp later on got smaller. But since Piccolo's interaction in the manga is practically null, one can't say much either. Vague points lead for a lot of room to work around.

I think there are easier ways to place everyone without having to resort to massive amplifications.
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superperfectnerd
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How would Gohan not realise he's fifty times stronger than his father after sparring with him constantly for a year? That makes no sense to me, I only have Gohan 10% stronger than his daddy come The Cell Games, That boy is clever, gotta be low enough that Goku (the superior technical fighter) can match him during their final sparring sessions.

Gohan then goes backwards and Piccolo cant's close that gap? And is 50 times weaker at The Cell Games than base Gohan? It is easier by reducing 50 times but even 10 time makes Gohan a moron for not knowing he was ten times stronger than his dad. Plus it would mean Goku would be stronger using kaioken times 20 than he is as a ssj.


17 stomps, I have Yakon weaker than Freeza. His nifty light eating could make him dangerous and Kaioshin doesn't necessarily know how strong Yakon is or how improved he is by Bobbidi's magic.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 23 2018, 01:04 AM.
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ahill1
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EMIYA
Jan 23 2018, 12:14 AM
I think there's indirect evidence that the amplification for Super Saiyan is not as large as it was in the Freeza Arc. It may have even been smaller even before the Boo Arc came around. We know it's 50x during Freeza because it numerically has to be but once numbers stopped being a thing, anything goes. However as long as the gaps between Piccolo, the Saiyans, Gohan and all that remain as relatively vague as they do, that 50x still works, even if it seems outlandish in size.

Well, if you assume that as soon as Goku transformed into a SSJ to lighten up the lace in his fight against Yakon he was at full power, then that can 'maybe' serve as evidence that the SSJ multiplier for the Boo saga shrunk down to around 4x (since Goku ssj was read as 3,000 where Yakon had 800 kiri)...

But then probably not, since you are in the SSJ camp, and if you assume Goku was at full power there then it'd work as a direct evidence for Dabura being way stronger than Goku SSJ, considering he did read such power in the Kiri meter and yet was fully confident that he'd defeat not only Goku, but everyone else, when they could potentially be as strong as Goku...


To say nothing of 50x, Gohan in the Cell Games being many times stronger than his father is really, really overblown, considering that upon fighting Cell, whose suppressed power was described as just "one or two steps above him", Goku was still apparently counting on Gohan's enraged powers as the key to defeat Perfect Cell, when he himself wasn't even sure whether Cell displayed all of his power in their bout:


Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”


So, that'd mean Gohan isn't considerably stronger than the Cell who Goku fought, let alone many times stronger, otherwise there'd make no sense for Goku to rely on Gohan's dormant/enraged powers to deal with Cell... his normal, SSJ power would be already enough for such.
Edited by ahill1, Jan 23 2018, 10:28 PM.
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