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Filler in Super
Topic Started: Jan 9 2018, 04:05 PM (5,739 Views)
Kblo247
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Pyrus
Jan 11 2018, 12:17 AM
I am not sure if we are seriously humoring goten and trunks being weaker than krillin.
I'm just saying that in Super, we have



- Krillin is an automatic selection by Gohan before its brought up he retired, not because of his strategy skills which they specifically mention like with Roshi. They even in Gohan's image training session imagine Krillin who hasn't trained and is retired fighting Basil head up, he lost, but they imagined it, and then Goku says it's all good Krillin has been training again secretly to Gohan (they mention they train off screen together with Krillin telling of kaioken x20 and the spirit bomb) and say he will be fine once again not because of strategy.

Roshi is literally the only one the Super anime mentions strategy when it comes too out of the group. Tien isn't even mentioned or thought of. He just gets asked because he makes 10 people while Goku searches for Roshi to join. Roshi's power shocks Goku, when he isn't holding back, but again Roshi was recruited for strategy. And Roshi himself tells U4 its his job to beat the tricksters because his stronger friends rely on power too much now.

Krillin is literally lumped into the selection process of we have Goku, Goha, Buu, Piccolo, Vegeta, and Krillin as the first 6 automatics by Gohan himself. There is no way around that in the anime. He only gets questioned when Satan says but he retired from all fighting. They don't clarify his selection with skill set at all in the anime when his name is brought up before Roshi and the boys. You can go back and watch that lol

When we get into the later stuff like him taking a punch from a Gohan who is stronger than the boys with no damage and laughing seconds later, him pushing Goku back, and him shown fighting 18 in the yeard which the neighbors say occurs a lot and we get him beind at least comparable if not better than the anime boys. We also have the warrior making 18 grimace with a strike and krillin fighting him head up without her for what it is worth, so while 18 is stronger than him and the boys, he can at least defend himself versus her
Edited by Kblo247, Jan 11 2018, 12:32 AM.
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superperfectnerd
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You're telling me what happens in the Copy Vegeta arc which I'm saying is nonsense, based on what I'm implying, that filler arc does not make Krillin stronger than ssj3 Gotenks. Nobody seems as strong in the TOP arc as a base Vegeta tanking ssj3 Gotenks.
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Kblo247
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superperfectnerd
Jan 11 2018, 12:30 AM
You're telling me what happens in the Copy Vegeta arc which I'm saying is nonsense, based on what I'm implying, that filler arc does not make Krillin stronger than ssj3 Gotenks. Nobody seems as strong in the TOP arc as a base Vegeta tanking ssj3 Gotenks.
Goku defending himself in base and tired versus SSJ2 Caulifula come to mind?

Or Vegeta beating Brianne in his base when 17 was shown serious versus her to the point she ran away?

Or Vegeta tanking punches for space cop with 300x power mode turned on in his base after he shocked 18 before?

Or Final Form Frieza knocking around the Yardrat he says Gohan should have used ssj on to win?

We also see Base Goku tank Piccolos explosive wave after hes trained some more from being able to choke out ssj2 Gohan who if he is z sword level is comparable to Buu.

I would say Goku, Vegeta, and Final Form Frieza having comparable powers lines up with the early stuff actually still. I mean base Gohan isn't superior to them and hasn't been presented as such.
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Kblo247
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I personally line them all up like this for argument sake if we are using past bench marks

17
18
Base Vegeta
Base Goku
Final Form Frieza
Base Gohan
Piccolo
Krillin
Roshi
Tien

Vegeta uses SSJ where Goku uses God to test people and fight. Gohan was doing comparable to Piccolo versus the NAmeks and U10 but then takes over when he goes Mystic. Roshi got battered around by Frost but pushed back for a second by buffing out. Krillin fought with 18 and he took on an opponent that made her grimace.

I mean its find to say Vegeta is tank Gotenks level, Goku is below that and Frieza comparable. It still lines up with Gohan being below Frieza as the Yardrat fight shows off. 17 and 18 being over the base saiyans work too as 18 lifts Tuper off Goku and finishes off a stronger Brianne while 17 keeps showing more and more
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superperfectnerd
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I think you're taking random design and art choices and animators not being bothered to draw auras or change colours too literally as feats.

I think this is what I mean by kind of taking in context and nuance of feats to realise which ones count and which ones don't.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 11 2018, 01:00 AM.
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Dagon
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I don't feel that any of this discredits Super. 1st form Freeza is above Buuhan or at the very least Super Buu. That much is made abundantly clear with multiple statements.

Tagoma calling base Gohan stronger than Piccolo? Well, guess it is what it is. Or maybe Piccolo was tired. I see no problems with it.

Ginyu frog is an oversight really but you can make the excuse that ginyu frog counts as an animal and therefore would be revived.
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superperfectnerd
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Trunks in a later arc senses less power in Gohan than he had in the Cell Games, so for base Gohan to be above Piccolo then it'd be,

Piccolo < base Gohan (ROF arc) < base Gohan (Goku Black arc) < base Gohan Cell Games

And yet Piccolo can hold his own against a Cell jr that takes ssjs stronger than he is in base to fight?

The scaling is all over the place, so I see no reason to believe any of this confirms first form Freeza above Boohan.

Or Krillin... Krillin for Christ's sake, above ssj3 Gotenks.

You may disagree but feats rule and nonsensical character statements can go in the trash along with feats from clear filler arcs, or movie arcs that have clearly been retconned ever since Krillin made Goku go ssj.

Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 11 2018, 03:46 AM.
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+ Pyrus
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Gohan wasn't in Base at the Cell Games except for the very end when he was exhausted (which Trunks was dead for), and then at the Lookout.
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Dagon
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superperfectnerd
Jan 11 2018, 03:36 AM
Trunks in a later arc senses less power in Gohan than he had in the Cell Games, so for base Gohan to be above Piccolo then it'd be,
Trunks says "I can't detect any of that overflowing power." Piccolo said Gohan stepped away from martial arts, so Gohan's just relaxed and not amping his ki.
But maybe Piccolo is still SSJ tier and Tagoma just considered Gohan more "dangerous." Maybe Piccolo was tired. Or maybe Piccolo really was weaker than weakened Gohan.

But disregarding statements because they feel "filler-ish" is incorrect because all of it is approved by Toei and by comparison, Super has far less "filler" per se than DBZ did. Literally more than half of DBZ was filler but DBS has far, far fewer "filler-ish" moments.
Edited by Dagon, Jan 11 2018, 05:40 AM.
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Kblo247
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superperfectnerd
Jan 11 2018, 03:36 AM
Trunks in a later arc senses less power in Gohan than he had in the Cell Games, so for base Gohan to be above Piccolo then it'd be,

Piccolo < base Gohan (ROF arc) < base Gohan (Goku Black arc) < base Gohan Cell Games

And yet Piccolo can hold his own against a Cell jr that takes ssjs stronger than he is in base to fight?

The scaling is all over the place, so I see no reason to believe any of this confirms first form Freeza above Boohan.

Or Krillin... Krillin for Christ's sake, above ssj3 Gotenks.

You may disagree but feats rule and nonsensical character statements can go in the trash along with feats from clear filler arcs, or movie arcs that have clearly been retconned ever since Krillin made Goku go ssj.

Would make it feel better if we said Krillin wasn’t above but was rivaling Gotenks? Nothing is stated that Goku and Vegeta are base equals at all. Even when shown sparring Goku is shown out of breath on the ground with Vegeta still standing.

Whis also says Goku uses God not because it’s more powerful than SSJ but because it’s faster in the Dyspo episodes. He then later says Blue is much more powerful but stamina draining than God. Vegeta uses ssj for a speed boost va space cop and in his words to test Analaza.

I swear watching the two of Goku and Vegeta, they are using movie rules for Vegeta. Vegeta has the power of the god in his super saiyan. Vegeta doesn’t use his other super saiyan forms like ssj2 because Toriyama post movie said they were inefficient and ssj could be focused on. Vegeta only uses his base which he trains in, ssj, and blue. Goku is the one dividing up power between ssj2 and God, as he uses ssj2 as his default now all the time in the anime before blue.

Vegeta can be at a level where he can tank Gotenks in his base. Goku doesn’t have to be exactly equal, he can be pretty close but less powerful in base from using all those forms over focusing on one. Then Krillin can push him because he’s comparable to Gotenks, doesn’t have to be stronger just comparable, which still allows for 18 and Piccolo to beat that level.

I think an anime guidebook with levels would probably piss people off but would sell well
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Saiyan36
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Kblo247
Jan 11 2018, 05:49 AM
superperfectnerd
Jan 11 2018, 03:36 AM
Trunks in a later arc senses less power in Gohan than he had in the Cell Games, so for base Gohan to be above Piccolo then it'd be,

Piccolo < base Gohan (ROF arc) < base Gohan (Goku Black arc) < base Gohan Cell Games

And yet Piccolo can hold his own against a Cell jr that takes ssjs stronger than he is in base to fight?

The scaling is all over the place, so I see no reason to believe any of this confirms first form Freeza above Boohan.

Or Krillin... Krillin for Christ's sake, above ssj3 Gotenks.

You may disagree but feats rule and nonsensical character statements can go in the trash along with feats from clear filler arcs, or movie arcs that have clearly been retconned ever since Krillin made Goku go ssj.

Would make it feel better if we said Krillin wasn’t above but was rivaling Gotenks? Nothing is stated that Goku and Vegeta are base equals at all. Even when shown sparring Goku is shown out of breath on the ground with Vegeta still standing.

Whis also says Goku uses God not because it’s more powerful than SSJ but because it’s faster in the Dyspo episodes. He then later says Blue is much more powerful but stamina draining than God. Vegeta uses ssj for a speed boost va space cop and in his words to test Analaza.

I swear watching the two of Goku and Vegeta, they are using movie rules for Vegeta. Vegeta has the power of the god in his super saiyan. Vegeta doesn’t use his other super saiyan forms like ssj2 because Toriyama post movie said they were inefficient and ssj could be focused on. Vegeta only uses his base which he trains in, ssj, and blue. Goku is the one dividing up power between ssj2 and God, as he uses ssj2 as his default now all the time in the anime before blue.

Vegeta can be at a level where he can tank Gotenks in his base. Goku doesn’t have to be exactly equal, he can be pretty close but less powerful in base from using all those forms over focusing on one. Then Krillin can push him because he’s comparable to Gotenks, doesn’t have to be stronger just comparable, which still allows for 18 and Piccolo to beat that level.

I think an anime guidebook with levels would probably piss people off but would sell well
Katopesla's Final Mission was strong enough to hold off Super Saiyan Vegeta's Final Flash for a while.
If Vegeta is able to use God-power in his ssj1-form, that basically makes Katopesla God-tier.

If Vegeta could use God-power in ssj1, why couldn't he in base, if his part of the story was not retconned but only Goku's anyway? If he is able to use God-power in base, why would he have to shift to ssj1 in the first place? That simply would not be needed.

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superperfectnerd
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Saiyan36
Jan 11 2018, 01:30 PM
Kblo247
Jan 11 2018, 05:49 AM
superperfectnerd
Jan 11 2018, 03:36 AM
Trunks in a later arc senses less power in Gohan than he had in the Cell Games, so for base Gohan to be above Piccolo then it'd be,

Piccolo < base Gohan (ROF arc) < base Gohan (Goku Black arc) < base Gohan Cell Games

And yet Piccolo can hold his own against a Cell jr that takes ssjs stronger than he is in base to fight?

The scaling is all over the place, so I see no reason to believe any of this confirms first form Freeza above Boohan.

Or Krillin... Krillin for Christ's sake, above ssj3 Gotenks.

You may disagree but feats rule and nonsensical character statements can go in the trash along with feats from clear filler arcs, or movie arcs that have clearly been retconned ever since Krillin made Goku go ssj.

Would make it feel better if we said Krillin wasn’t above but was rivaling Gotenks? Nothing is stated that Goku and Vegeta are base equals at all. Even when shown sparring Goku is shown out of breath on the ground with Vegeta still standing.

Whis also says Goku uses God not because it’s more powerful than SSJ but because it’s faster in the Dyspo episodes. He then later says Blue is much more powerful but stamina draining than God. Vegeta uses ssj for a speed boost va space cop and in his words to test Analaza.

I swear watching the two of Goku and Vegeta, they are using movie rules for Vegeta. Vegeta has the power of the god in his super saiyan. Vegeta doesn’t use his other super saiyan forms like ssj2 because Toriyama post movie said they were inefficient and ssj could be focused on. Vegeta only uses his base which he trains in, ssj, and blue. Goku is the one dividing up power between ssj2 and God, as he uses ssj2 as his default now all the time in the anime before blue.

Vegeta can be at a level where he can tank Gotenks in his base. Goku doesn’t have to be exactly equal, he can be pretty close but less powerful in base from using all those forms over focusing on one. Then Krillin can push him because he’s comparable to Gotenks, doesn’t have to be stronger just comparable, which still allows for 18 and Piccolo to beat that level.

I think an anime guidebook with levels would probably piss people off but would sell well
Katopesla's Final Mission was strong enough to hold off Super Saiyan Vegeta's Final Flash for a while.
If Vegeta is able to use God-power in his ssj1-form, that basically makes Katopesla God-tier.

If Vegeta could use God-power in ssj1, why couldn't he in base, if his part of the story was not retconned but only Goku's anyway? If he is able to use God-power in base, why would he have to shift to ssj1 in the first place? That simply would not be needed.

Exactly, this is why I'm saying base and even ssj Vegeta is no longer god tier because some shmuck from another universe with some suit cannot be above a legendary god version of Goku after everything he went through in Z TIMES 50 and beyond. That's mental and idiotic undermining of Z, which had universe conquering villains. The feats from that little bug guy (hurting Goku in base) would put even him above Super Vegetto. It's illogical to think random mortals who are sneaky and not top tier for their universe are somehow casually above Boohan. The scaling has changed, that's it. Retcons of BOG and ROF power scaling are confirmed by feats like that.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 11 2018, 07:20 PM.
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Kblo247
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Saiyan36
Jan 11 2018, 01:30 PM
Kblo247
Jan 11 2018, 05:49 AM
superperfectnerd
Jan 11 2018, 03:36 AM
Trunks in a later arc senses less power in Gohan than he had in the Cell Games, so for base Gohan to be above Piccolo then it'd be,

Piccolo < base Gohan (ROF arc) < base Gohan (Goku Black arc) < base Gohan Cell Games

And yet Piccolo can hold his own against a Cell jr that takes ssjs stronger than he is in base to fight?

The scaling is all over the place, so I see no reason to believe any of this confirms first form Freeza above Boohan.

Or Krillin... Krillin for Christ's sake, above ssj3 Gotenks.

You may disagree but feats rule and nonsensical character statements can go in the trash along with feats from clear filler arcs, or movie arcs that have clearly been retconned ever since Krillin made Goku go ssj.

Would make it feel better if we said Krillin wasn’t above but was rivaling Gotenks? Nothing is stated that Goku and Vegeta are base equals at all. Even when shown sparring Goku is shown out of breath on the ground with Vegeta still standing.

Whis also says Goku uses God not because it’s more powerful than SSJ but because it’s faster in the Dyspo episodes. He then later says Blue is much more powerful but stamina draining than God. Vegeta uses ssj for a speed boost va space cop and in his words to test Analaza.

I swear watching the two of Goku and Vegeta, they are using movie rules for Vegeta. Vegeta has the power of the god in his super saiyan. Vegeta doesn’t use his other super saiyan forms like ssj2 because Toriyama post movie said they were inefficient and ssj could be focused on. Vegeta only uses his base which he trains in, ssj, and blue. Goku is the one dividing up power between ssj2 and God, as he uses ssj2 as his default now all the time in the anime before blue.

Vegeta can be at a level where he can tank Gotenks in his base. Goku doesn’t have to be exactly equal, he can be pretty close but less powerful in base from using all those forms over focusing on one. Then Krillin can push him because he’s comparable to Gotenks, doesn’t have to be stronger just comparable, which still allows for 18 and Piccolo to beat that level.

I think an anime guidebook with levels would probably piss people off but would sell well
Katopesla's Final Mission was strong enough to hold off Super Saiyan Vegeta's Final Flash for a while.
If Vegeta is able to use God-power in his ssj1-form, that basically makes Katopesla God-tier.

If Vegeta could use God-power in ssj1, why couldn't he in base, if his part of the story was not retconned but only Goku's anyway? If he is able to use God-power in base, why would he have to shift to ssj1 in the first place? That simply would not be needed.

What’s your ssj multiplier?

We know the guy boosted his speed and strength both 300x over for Vegeta to go ssj. Vegeta tanked the 300x power mode in his base. It’s the speed boost to go with the power boost at the same time that he transformed to handle. 18 was blitzed by the 300x speed boost, but Vegeta faces 300x power and didn’t defend himself in his base, he just took the hits to he got mad and beat the guy up. He compensated for his speed, which isnt crazy at all when you remember Vegeta body is under 10x gravity out here too in the ToP at all times.

Whis even remarked that Goku only used god because it was faster than ssj. He didn’t say it was stronger, it’s just faster and less stamina draining than blue when dealing with speed demons like Dyspo. He then remarked that Goku used blue to attack for more power
Edited by Kblo247, Jan 11 2018, 11:04 PM.
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Dagon
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superperfectnerd
Jan 11 2018, 07:17 PM
Exactly, this is why I'm saying base and even ssj Vegeta is no longer god tier because some shmuck from another universe with some suit cannot be above a legendary god version of Goku after everything he went through in Z TIMES 50 and beyond. That's mental and idiotic undermining of Z, which had universe conquering villains. The feats from that little bug guy (hurting Goku in base) would put even him above Super Vegetto. It's illogical to think random mortals who are sneaky and not top tier for their universe are somehow casually above Boohan. The scaling has changed, that's it. Retcons of BOG and ROF power scaling are confirmed by feats like that.
You are using a lot of headcanon here. "They can't be casually above Buuhan because it offends my conseptions about the Z sagas." Too bad. It is what it is. Universe 7 is SECOND TO LAST in terms of mortal level. I see no problem with the scaling.
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Joseph Gomes
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Filler has two definitions. One is stuff made to stretch the show. The other is non-canon filler made by anime if it gets too close to what it's adapted from (ie the manga)

Super has fillers according to definition 1

Super has no fillers according to definition 2, as it is not an adaptation. Super anime is 100% original work with from Toriyama's manuscripts.

You could say it has canon fillers, but that sounds contradictory.

All in all, Super has unnecessary episodes but everything is canon in the show, even the 'fillers'.
Edited by Joseph Gomes, Jan 12 2018, 09:36 AM.
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