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Filler in Super
Topic Started: Jan 9 2018, 04:05 PM (5,685 Views)
superperfectnerd
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Some of the most head-scratching parts of Super's illogical power scale come from parts of the series which feel like filler but arguments against this are "Super has no filler, it is what it is". We have Tagoma being above base Gohan and base Gohan (who is supposed to be weakened) above Piccolo? First form Freeza punching holes in ssj Gohan when in the movie he just one shots base Gohan. They have sensed greater power from an opponent in their lower forms before and known that this isn't their full strength, first form Freeza doesn't have to be above ssj Gohan or Gotenks for them to feel screwed if they can sense hints of his golden form power. But whatever ROF is a mess because of movie to tv show copy and paste with no thought of how the scaling is going to go when Toriyama actually makes new stuff and decides to ignore ssjg < base saiyans from then on. Then you have ssj3 Gotenks getting no sold by a version of base Vegeta in what feels like a filler arc. Goku matching Hit in regular blue implying he's ten times stronger and then suddenly it seems like Goku hasn't seen Hit since their first fight in the next arc, plus Vegeta isn't with Whis and Goku has gotten 'rusty' despite his challenge to Hit previously. You've got Fit Boo in two hours of training and then straight back to Fat Boo like one hour later when he's asleep and unable to compete.

However doesn't the ROF arc disprove the no filler?

Kid Boo destroyed the Earth and everyone on it and when every life form was wished back, only the 'good' guys were revived, hence the reveal that Vegeta was 'good' because he was returned to life. How can frog Ginyu still be on Earth then? If he's still evil enough to immediately join Freeza upon his return and attempt to kill Gohan and Piccolo, then how was he wished back? Also, everyone thought Ginyu would somehow be able to communicate with the frog like alien in Sorbet's crew and transfer into his body but nope, all Ginyu needed to do was write 'change' on the ground and get some Tagoma to read it and bam, he's back in a humanoid body. Why didn't he do this to some random human in the 15 years since Freeza died? And how does he just so happen to be hopping around in the exact place Freeza decides to land his ship?

Ginyu disproves the 'canon' of Super to me and I actually think the movie could be considered more canon to the anime than the arc.
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StrenuousSpider
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superperfectnerd
Jan 9 2018, 04:05 PM
Some of the most head-scratching parts of Super's illogical power scale come from parts of the series which feel like filler but arguments against this are "Super has no filler, it is what it is". We have Tagoma being above base Gohan and base Gohan (who is supposed to be weakened) above Piccolo? First form Freeza punching holes in ssj Gohan when in the movie he just one shots base Gohan. They have sensed greater power from an opponent in their lower forms before and known that this isn't their full strength, first form Freeza doesn't have to be above ssj Gohan or Gotenks for them to feel screwed if they can sense hints of his golden form power. But whatever ROF is a mess because of movie to tv show copy and paste with no thought of how the scaling is going to go when Toriyama actually makes new stuff and decides to ignore ssjg < base saiyans from then on. Then you have ssj3 Gotenks getting no sold by a version of base Vegeta in what feels like a filler arc. Goku matching Hit in regular blue implying he's ten times stronger and then suddenly it seems like Goku hasn't seen Hit since their first fight in the next arc, plus Vegeta isn't with Whis and Goku has gotten 'rusty' despite his challenge to Hit previously. You've got Fit Boo in two hours of training and then straight back to Fat Boo like one hour later when he's asleep and unable to compete.

However doesn't the ROF arc disprove the no filler?

Kid Boo destroyed the Earth and everyone on it and when every life form was wished back, only the 'good' guys were revived, hence the reveal that Vegeta was 'good' because he was returned to life. How can frog Ginyu still be on Earth then? If he's still evil enough to immediately join Freeza upon his return and attempt to kill Gohan and Piccolo, then how was he wished back? Also, everyone thought Ginyu would somehow be able to communicate with the frog like alien in Sorbet's crew and transfer into his body but nope, all Ginyu needed to do was write 'change' on the ground and get some Tagoma to read it and bam, he's back in a humanoid body. Why didn't he do this to some random human in the 15 years since Freeza died? And how does he just so happen to be hopping around in the exact place Freeza decides to land his ship?

Ginyu disproves the 'canon' of Super to me and I actually think the movie could be considered more canon to the anime than the arc.
I always felt that there should have been a 5 episode thing between buu saga and BoG movie and 5 episodes Between BoG and RoF and 5 episodes then super starts. Because the movies where better in nearly every way.

I feel like buus skinny form is some kind of transformation because it makes no sense that he would get fat again unless its a transformation and he cant stay in it while asleep.
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I think the ginyu thing is just a plot hole. Idk how else to explain it. Minor plot holes don't make something non canon though. It's just...toei lol

There is no filler. The entire thing is an original anime, not an adaptation. So we can't pick and choose what is and what isn't filler.
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Topographic Oceans
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Super is really bad and an inconsistent mess but the original manga also has massive plot holes--does that mean it has filler as well? Goku goes on a journey to find the four-star Dragon Ball, even tough it hasn't been an year since the latest wish and all of the Dragon Balls should be inactive. Does that mean that the entire Red Ribbon Army arc is filler and that Movie 3 - A Great Mystical Adventure (which is sort of a retelling of the Red Ribbon/22nd Budokai arcs) is the canon version?
Edited by Topographic Oceans, Jan 10 2018, 03:15 AM.
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superperfectnerd
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In this instance we have a version without plot holes though, we have the movie and the movie came first.

The arc is an adaption of the movie, so doesn't that make the movie the original canon in the same way that Dragon Ball and Z are adaptions of the Dragon Ball manga which came first? Why is the anime which came second considered canon over the two movies?

BOG movie to ROF movie and then leading into the series has less plot holes. Also, if we really want to go back to basics, Toriyama's story points which the anime and manga build on are the 'canon' events and I doubt he was involved at all in an arc in between the main ones, like the Copy Vegeta arc, that'd be all Toei with no input from the original writer, so couldn't an argument be made for that being a filler arc in between the ones which Toriyama actually wants to move events forward?

I have a friend who is watching the dub and is skipping the Copy Vegeta arc for instance because he deems it as filler between arcs.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 9 2018, 06:20 PM.
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Kblo247
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Was Ginyu really bad enough to leave dead? I mean in context of the others. He isn't a genocidal prince who killed millions or sold himself for a rematch. He isn't a demon king reborn. He isn't a mercenary with a psychic partner who cheats. He isn't a bandit who robbed people and left them to die in the desert. 17 and 18 are created and modified to be evil. So Ginyu who has lived at peace for 10 years and didn't try anything may be seen as being good enough.

The Gotenks stuff is no big deal to me as it fits the narrative. Goku is shown in his own head beating Buu as a ssj. Goku is the strongest. Vegeta surpasses his ssj3 with ssj2. Then Goku goes God and absorbs it. Vegeta trains with Whis and Goku soon follows. Then Beerus cheats the processby sending them in Whis staff to boost them. They then train 3 more years together. Gotenks has never won a fight outside a movie, so he isn't impressive to begin with track record wise, and he lost to Vegeta who is much improved.

We fast forward to the Krillin and Gohan stuff. Gohan you can say got back to his Z sword power and that works during the saiyaman stuff and working out with Piccolo. Goku questioned if he could fight Buu at that level so it all fits. If he's Z sword Gohan, he is comparable to Buu once again. He is inferior to Buu at RoF which works with KRillin being worried Buu isn't there to carry them. Him being comparable at the exhibitions with his Z sword self allows for him to fight Lavender how he did which was with slight more difficulty than Buu had with Basil. Him regaining his Ultimate form and then training it higher with Piccolo works with the narrative of his potential.

Krillin parts all fits together. Krillin at RoF is rusty and scared but he is never touched by the goons. He is the strongest human and it shows because he naturally protects himself. In fact he drops the most bodies and is the only human who does not take a senzu. He goes in the forest and surpasses his own limits in it. Krillin is said to keep training off screen with Goku and knows about kaioken x 20 blue. He knows Goku can't make a spirit bomb while super saiyan. HE also has improved to he can push Goku into transforming ssj out of necessity and not for kicks. That all fits together

18 works in constant continuity. She says at Frieza that she is stronger than you guys and can fight, which actually lines up with this whole tournament and her being a final 6. She is shown to keep working with her husband and keeping up with her gear. Marron says they fight all the time as does her neighbors. Everything lines up with her being superior to the others here from Krillin to the ssj boys to Piccolo. Even in Kai, when Goten and Trunks attack her together, neither can touch her outside the costume. 18 can sense ki, she has infinite stamina, and states herself to be her husband and the guys superior and kinda holds that place to the end. She even later powers up in tournament off her own love despite her telling 17 that she doesn't like those overly sappy human things when she saves him.

Vegeta and Goku line up like they always have.

Roshi keeps up with what we know. He has been training off screen. In the RoF saga he trains and can use his buff form to fight. In the forest stuff he's been training and has a suit Goku calls heavy. Then he eats the weeds. Then he keeps training and we have him not holding back and beating Tien, who last we saw when trained the same way as Yamcha and Krillin for example was making the lowest percentage gains of the three in the saiyan arc anyhow. Then we have Roshi fine tuning himself with Korrin and Yajirobe. You may say well Yajirobe isn't impressive but he was asked to fight vs 19/20 after Goku says good thing you left Chaiotzu behind. He also survived a point blast twice from 19 and 20 in his jets, so he is stronger than he gets credit for despite being a coward. Roshi being stronger works here. In fact he tells U4 that I am not as strong as my friends but it is my job to take you tricksters out because my friends have gotten to the point they only rely on power. HE also shows incredible determiantion to break his own limits while using Goku and Krillin as motivation.

I really see no problems with everyons path lining up. Even Piccolo works. He is weaker than base Gohan in RoF which lines up with being spit on in the Buu arc with a Gohan who is weaker than his cell games self. He then trains Gohan some and gets stronger. HE keeps training off panel because he knows about the exhibition possibly coming. HE goes in Piccolo fashion from below base saiyans to ssj2 tier, like how he went from below base Goku to ssj tier for the androids. Then he improves his most haxed attack.

Where does the logical lack of progression come for the main characters?
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superperfectnerd
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Ginyu stole people's bodies... he's a body snatcher and joined Freeza immediately upon his return and then relished in attempting to kill the people of Earth. He's worse than most of what you listed.

I'm sorry but Krillin and Roshi being above ssj3 Gotenks never 'fits together'.

Plus this nugget - enhanced beyond his limits Basil < Good Boo (same as he was in the Boo saga) <<<<<<<<<<<< base Goku (absorbed god ki into his base and then got much stronger on top)

And yet Basil can pressure Goku and is a credible threat to him along with Lavender?

Heck that bug in universe 4 can hurt Goku? Really? Really?

This is just classic Toriyama, he upped the stakes to unimaginable heights in a one off movie before he knew it would continue or what direction it would go in and then couldn't undo it. Base Goku in TOP certainly isn't at ssjg universal destruction level and way beyond like he was in the BOG arc, that'd be mental. He'd exhale and destroy everyone who's got some novelty power and then it'd be just him, Vegeta, Toppo, Freeza and Jiren left.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 10 2018, 05:09 AM.
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StrenuousSpider
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superperfectnerd
Jan 10 2018, 05:03 AM
I'm sorry but Krillin and Roshi being above ssj3 Gotenks never 'fits together'.

Plus this nugget - enhanced beyond his limits Basil < Good Boo (same as he was in the Boo saga) <<<<<<<<<<<< base Goku (absorbed god ki into his base and then got much stronger on top)

And yet Basil can pressure Goku and is a credible threat to him along with Lavender?

Heck that bug in universe 4 can hurt Goku? Really? Really?
Well as we know image training is just as good as fighting the real thing. And goku went to fight kid buu as a ssj. And base goku at EoZ was ssj3 buu saga teir and this showed that he was closing that gap by time BoG came around. So that and base goku and vegeta > ssj3 gotenks and buu was able to fight base goku proves without a doubt buu has gotten stronger since buu saga.

Also i know people hate it but two base would fix all of this. And it goes perfectly with what ssj blue is and what i imagine ssj god is to.
Edited by StrenuousSpider, Jan 10 2018, 05:15 AM.
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superperfectnerd
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Boo trains for two hours and gets slim, so he can't have trained before then and be stronger than he was in the Boo saga and still be fat.

Goku also holds back initially in fights, so even by the logic that Goku has to image train against an opponent in the correct form (which I don't believe, I think ssj is just his most iconic form and he was using it because it's cool to see Goku mentally spar his most famous foes in his most iconic form) who's to say he wasn't just testing the water first as a ssj against Kid Boo?

UUb isn't at Kid Boo level in his first fight with Goku, if he was then he wouldn't need training.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 10 2018, 05:37 AM.
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StrenuousSpider
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superperfectnerd
Jan 10 2018, 05:37 AM
Boo trains for two hours and gets slim, so he can't have trained before then and be stronger than he was in the Boo saga and still be fat.

Goku also holds back initially in fights, so even by the logic that Goku has to image train against an opponent in the correct form (which I don't believe, I think ssj is just his most iconic form and he was using it because it's cool to see Goku mentally spar his most famous foes in his most iconic form) who's to say he wasn't just testing the water first as a ssj against Kid Boo?

UUb isn't at Kid Boo level in his first fight with Goku, if he was then he wouldn't need training.
When he got angry is when most say he was kid buu level which goku fought fine.

I think i said it in another topic i think buus skinny state is some kind of form. But even if its not whats to say he has not trained like that in the past and over night got fat like he did there. And like i said its not only the image training that proves buu got stronger. But none the less i find it weird that people accept that goku and vegeta get these weird unexplained power ups but if anyone else is scaled to there level with no explanation its automatically false and not true.
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superperfectnerd
Jan 10 2018, 05:37 AM
Boo trains for two hours and gets slim, so he can't have trained before then and be stronger than he was in the Boo saga and still be fat.

Goku also holds back initially in fights, so even by the logic that Goku has to image train against an opponent in the correct form (which I don't believe, I think ssj is just his most iconic form and he was using it because it's cool to see Goku mentally spar his most famous foes in his most iconic form) who's to say he wasn't just testing the water first as a ssj against Kid Boo? Now he trains to become skinny because he wants to have another good fight nd he doesn't want Satan to get hurt again; his training is logical. I mean Buu literally goes, you're stronger but I'm stronger, and you'll pay for hurting Satan. Him being the third strongest guy on the planet lines up with Goku picking him first after himself and Vegeta in both arcs where he forms a team as well as Krillin wanting him to fight Frieza

UUb isn't at Kid Boo level in his first fight with Goku, if he was then he wouldn't need training.
I didn't say Buu was stronger than he was. I would just argue he is Fat Buu tier naturally. I mean he lasts longer vs Beerus than anyone by a mile in Super and keeps coming back. Gohan got knocked away like a bug. I think we essentially have Gohan at 3 stages in super. His weak budokai self, then his z sword self, and then his super buu self which he improved on. I think Mr Buu is just fat buu tier and can beat GOhan and Gotenks which will always line up with the movie and RoF saga of Krillin saying where is Buu?


Goku tells Goten the importance of training and staying ready so it makes no sense to be holding back at all if he is trying to stay and be ready for the next threat. In Goku's mind his ssj can handle those threats.


I think Uub got closer especially when we saw his eyes glow in the manga to ref Kid Buu.


As for Krillin and Roshi, I have no problem with the idea of Krillin beating Gotenks or Roshi giving him hell. He has never won a fight before. Krillin trains with Goku and 18, which is a statement backed by 18, Goku, and Marron. Goten and Trunks are said to be too weak to fight on their own by Vegeta. They also do not train at all and are called unskilled. In fact in the anime we run into the fact Krillin is picked before the buys are even thought of by Gohan and thats a retired one lol
Edited by Kblo247, Jan 10 2018, 06:31 AM.
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superperfectnerd
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Boo training was implied to be a completely new thing by Mr Satan. He'd not seen Boo so excited and dedicated to getting strong like that and in 2 hours he'd gotten skinny, then fat again a couple of episodes later. Well was he motivated or not? Seems like filler.

You still haven't explained how Basil can be below Good Boo but put pressure on a base Goku far beyond ssjg from the BOG arc.

Gotenks has never won true... he only ever fought Boo and Beerus. He has lost a staggering one ttwo out of two fights before Copy Vegeta but in the manga he lost to the strongest beings in the universe, one with hax regen.

The show didn't imply Krillin or Roshi were stronger than Gotenks, it went out of it's way to imply that their skills and experience make them candidates whereas Goten and Trunks are reckless and playful. Gotenks wasn't even mentioned but it is illogical to think that the skill of the humans trumps the raw power of ssj3 Gotenks but that's what the show implies, it doesn't imply Krillin or Roshi are stronger than the boys. The very statement that Goku/Vegeta have to mention the boys' recklessness and the humans as an alternative mean that the boys are stronger than the humans individually, let alone Gotenks, otherwise they'd just say the humans are stronger instead of banging on about their skill and experience. So that throws another wrench in the works because Krillin is below ssj Goten and yet Goku feels the need to go ssj against him? No base god form anymore, it's impossible.

Also remember ssj kid Trunks putting his future counterpart on his arse? Trunks is basically even with base Goku, I don't think he could be god tier if his kid version can do anything to him.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 10 2018, 03:40 PM.
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"Filler" depends on how you define it. It absolutely has filler if you define filler as parts of an episode used to mostly take up time (often to slow down the anime so that the manga author can catch up/get ahead, which is why filler got turned into what it is now). Copy-Vegeta for example, it also uses content from Filler in Z (such as Ginyu taking Bulma's body at one point, this is directly referenced).

To be honest filler seems to mostly be used as "anime-exclusive" rather than well... Filler. Which leads to weird moments like this where people disagree in what's filler or not.
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superperfectnerd
Jan 10 2018, 03:33 PM
Boo training was implied to be a completely new thing by Mr Satan. He'd not seen Boo so excited and dedicated to getting strong like that and in 2 hours he'd gotten skinny, then fat again a couple of episodes later. Well was he motivated or not? Seems like filler.

You still haven't explained how Basil can be below Good Boo but put pressure on a base Goku far beyond ssjg from the BOG arc.

Gotenks has never won true... he only ever fought Boo and Beerus. He has lost a staggering one ttwo out of two fights before Copy Vegeta but in the manga he lost to the strongest beings in the universe, one with hax regen.

The show didn't imply Krillin or Roshi were stronger than Gotenks, it went out of it's way to imply that their skills and experience make them candidates whereas Goten and Trunks are reckless and playful. Gotenks wasn't even mentioned but it is illogical to think that the skill of the humans trumps the raw power of ssj3 Gotenks but that's what the show implies, it doesn't imply Krillin or Roshi are stronger than the boys. The very statement that Goku/Vegeta have to mention the boys' recklessness and the humans as an alternative mean that the boys are stronger than the humans individually, let alone Gotenks, otherwise they'd just say the humans are stronger instead of banging on about their skill and experience. So that throws another wrench in the works because Krillin is below ssj Goten and yet Goku feels the need to go ssj against him? No base god form anymore, it's impossible.

Also remember ssj kid Trunks putting his future counterpart on his arse? Trunks is basically even with base Goku, I don't think he could be god tier if his kid version can do anything to him.
Well Buu went to sleep again and was fat. I took Slim Buu as being a form like Giant Piccolo or Buff Roshi. I think fat is his natural state and he was going to go skinny in the tourney on a whim especially since the ending and start had Fat Buu marching with the others. I didn't take it as a permanent state like Kid or Super.

Basil putting pressure on Goku is explained by Beerus. Beerus says individually the three of them were total weaklings while watching them surround Goku in their triangle and would be easy to beat one on one. Goku couldn't break their formation or sense them until Vegeta came in and asked why was he dragging his feet so much. Vegeta said let him take them all out implying he had some plan for the three of them, but Goku said no fair as it appears he had only planned out how to avoid the poison and making Bergamo grow so far. They never say Basil or Lavender is that strong that they push them back. They instead say that the guys are weak, Goku is trying to not over use his stamina, and the formation the brothers use by their own admission is how they beat people stronger than them since they are in perfect sync and can't be sensed.

Vegeta back in the Champa arc tells Goten and Trunks they are weak and can't fight on their own. They over rely on fusing into Gotenks. They have never won a battle and they proceed a short while after of being one shotted and tanked by Copy Vegeta at Gotenks best and highest level. In fact Vegeta saves them from goons for gods sake before being infected by the water. Then we have Goten not trying to train with Goku when he is looking for a partner as he is the one who volunteers Piccolo and Krillin to Goku to lead to the forest episodes. Trunks did knock his future self down but is shown minutes later worn out as a super saiyan while the other hasn't transformed at all; that also isn't the Trunks who went ssj rage either as that is the Trunks post his first of three power ups. And in the anime Krillin's power is never brought into question by Goku or Gohan, nor is his skill in his selection over them, he's an automatic selection over Goten and Trunks; Roshi is the one who gets an explanation, not Krillin, whereas Tien is never even brought up besides to make numbers work.
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I am not sure if we are seriously humoring goten and trunks being weaker than krillin.
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