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| is currennt ssjb goku on par with ssjb vegeta again | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 27 2017, 11:24 PM (15,820 Views) | |
| SuperSaiyanGodGogeta | Jan 7 2018, 09:57 PM Post #106 |
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no i didnt claim anything comparable to that. thats a strawman. i said that the only story given reason for vegetas performance is that he analyzed jirens movements, so claiming anything more than that is an assumption. And vegeta stated that jiren was stronger and faster against goku, so again you dont have a point. Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Jan 7 2018, 09:58 PM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 7 2018, 10:01 PM Post #107 |
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Izanagi!
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That's the reason that he was able to dodge Jiren's hits, yeah, but implicit in that is that he was able to dodge them due to his speed and power. Unless Super's gone so far down the drain that 'looking at somebody's moves and analysing them' is classified as some kind of mystical, special ability at this point. Which Goku? It has to be Kaioken or Ultra Instinct. Edited by Yu Narukami, Jan 7 2018, 10:01 PM.
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| SuperSaiyanGodGogeta | Jan 7 2018, 10:09 PM Post #108 |
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And so that's the end of this point if you agree. The only reason given is that he analyzed Jiren's movements from the outside while Jiren was fighting Goku. Absolutely nothing was stated or implied in the story about him being stronger than Goku. When Jiren fought Goku, he was faster and stronger than he was against Vegeta. I don't see why you're interpreting it as "either this or this" when that isn't what's stated. He used more strength and speed against Goku in general. |
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 7 2018, 10:13 PM Post #109 |
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Izanagi!
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No, you're taking that ''he analysed his moves and dodged'' as the only reason he was able to dodge. He was able to dodge because of his own speed and power. That's how reactions and movement works. Consider the context. Jiren was fighting Goku until Vegeta rushed in. Did Jiren suppress down to Vegeta's level in the split moment between fighting Goku and then fighting Vegeta? He was the same level throughout that switch, and Vegeta still says that he's weaker than when he fought Goku, so he must be saying that he's weaker than when he fought either Kaioken Goku or Ultra Instinct Goku. Jiren (vs. UI/Kaioken) > Jiren (Vs. Vegeta) > SSB Vegeta > SSB Goku That's what we're shown. 'Analysis' didn't help him after his initial dodge, that was all him, and given the context, we know that he was fighting an opponent who's > SSB Goku. |
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| SuperSaiyanGodGogeta | Jan 7 2018, 10:47 PM Post #110 |
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And I'm saying that you're assuming that there was another reason, so your argument doesn't hold regardless of how illogical you think it is. Nothing in that scene portrayed Vegeta as Goku's superior and the sole reason why Vegeta dodged Jiren's hits is chalked up in the story as analysis. Prior to analyzing Jiren's movements Vegeta was being thrashed in an identical fashion to Goku. I don't know why you're going on about "after the initial dodge". Vegeta didn't do anything. The characters entertain the idea of Jiren being pushed but Khai says that such a thing wasn't happening at all. Then Jiren puts Vegeta down in seconds. All Vegeta said is that Jiren used more power against Goku, so whenever he was fighting Goku he used more power. No ifs ands or buts. Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Jan 7 2018, 10:50 PM.
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| superperfectnerd | Jan 8 2018, 02:04 AM Post #111 |
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Cherry picking works both ways, that initial scuffle between Goku and Jiren wasn't a fight, it was a chat. Jiren was asking Goku a question, Goku couldn't answer if Jiren asked and then punched his head off. Goku lands and says "lets begin round two". Round one being his first fight with Jiren when he used kaioken and UI. So the fight was beginning when Goku said that and suddenly Goku isn't casually parrying Jiren's punches anymore because they're actually fighting, not chatting about why one wants to be strong. Goku was literally smiling, do you honestly believe we're supposed to think Jiren is using the power he used before against UI Goku in that moment? Of course not, Jiren is asking a question and just like in this instance where we're shown blue Goku doing better against a casual Jiren than he did when he used UI, Vegeta is rferring to the maximum strength he's seen Jiren output, i.e when he fought UI Goku. Not the prior few seconds where he and Kakarotto where both fighting Jiren at the same time, Jiren's not raising and lowering his power to fight oneor the other when they're both right there trading blows. That makes no sense. "When you fought Kakarotto", he's not fighting Kakarotto this time, he's fighting Kakarotto and Vegeta. Vegeta is referring to the only time Jiren has had a one on one fight with Goku. Not this current two on one brawl. Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 8 2018, 02:06 AM.
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| Dagon | Jan 8 2018, 03:24 AM Post #112 |
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In episode 22 Goku vs Vegeta's SSJB power without any extra amps is up in the air. It's kind of unclear, but to me it doesn't look like a gap of over 10 or 20x. The point was brought up that Vegeta was "thrashed in an identical fashion to Goku." Now remember, if Vegeta's showing vs Jiren(before reading Jiren's movments) is identical to Goku's, that means he would be close to Goku's current power, which is greater than when the tournament started. Vegeta hasn't gotten any weird power ups, so when the tournament started, he DID have a lead over Goku. That lead has probably lessened with Goku's limit break. Jiren was not knocked down by the spirit bomb, but was knocked down by the "prideful final flash." Now, yes, Jiren was using less power in this rematch, but he said the force of it was not half bad, whereas he confidently took on the spirit bomb. Vegeta's final flash forced Jiren to brace himself whereas Jiren took on the Spirit Bomb with one hand and finished it off with his glare. Additionally, everyone in the audience was cheering or sweating over Vegeta's final flash, as if it's a legitimate threat. This tells me the final flash was greater than the spirit bomb. |
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| Saiyan36 | Jan 8 2018, 07:19 PM Post #113 |
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When you tell someone the sun turns around the earth and not the other way around, i think you have to come up with some hard proof to claim your throne. I never acclaimed anything here. I only outed some scepticism towards Blue Vegeta being 40 times stronger than Blue Goku at the start of this Tournament. At a certain moment in the fight, Vegeta stated Jiren used more power against Goku first round. But what is he exactly referring too? If Jiren is not using the same amount of power, how can this hardly be seen as evidence of a stronger Vegeta? This rather suggests this fight is going on a lower level than against Blue Goku Kaioken. That fits very well with Blue Vegeta being weaker as well. The reason is simple. Jiren doesn't consider Vegeta as much of a challenge than Goku, not yet, and uses less power because of that. Jiren even did some effort to dodge Goku's KMH or push away his Spirit-Bomb. But this? He basically took the full load without a scratch. Walking through energy-attacks of opponents is a sign of massive power differential. It almost reminded me of SSJG Goku, you know, the one with the low multiplier, who flew through SSJ2 Kefla's and Caulifla's blasts. Why couldn't Jiren have left his guard down a little bit and/or Vegeta just reading his movements? Just to give the Vegeta-fans their moment of glory. The show is a lot more important for the writers than power levels. So why don't give Vegeta his moment of glory? There is any concrete proof in my opinion whatsoever Vegeta's Blue at the start of the Tournament was 30 times stronger than Goku's Blue, just by doing some ROSAT-training. If there is a logical explaination: we are just seeing the awakening of a new power, that's all. During his first attacks, he was wiped away like a fly. I would say he was even weaker than Blue Goku first round there. Right after that he was observing . His eye looked weird and it was reflecting Jiren and Goku fighting. It was like he had seen some holy light. After that happened, he was stronger. The authors could be telling us something there. Something was awakening inside him in that case. It's too soon to call it UI, it could be another power as well Blue Goku has not. Or an unusual strong form of Blue, like the Strengthened SSJ2 Trunks was for SSJ2. We aren't going to compare Trunks strengthened SSJ2, which was God-tier, with normal SSJ2 as well, are we? Or compare Goku's UI with Blue Vegeta? At the end he was just flabbergasted and bullied by Jiren, just like Blue Goku Kaioken x20 was. So where is the real proof, apart from Vegeta stating Jiren was less strong than against Blue Goku first round, which is basically no proof at all? At the end of the day, Mister Copernicus, i still am waiting for some real tight hardcore evidence. Edited by Saiyan36, Jan 8 2018, 09:41 PM.
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| superperfectnerd | Jan 8 2018, 09:57 PM Post #114 |
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Goku amped up through all forms and played with Jiren in his first fight, even though he knew he'd need more power. Vegeta has shown confidence to fight Jiren this whole time, just because Vegeta is fighting in blue straight away here doesn't mean he wasn't testing the water at first and holding back like Goku did. Initially neither Goku nor Vegeta could move Jiren and then Vegeta looks at some punches, reads it and lands a blow but Jiren stood still earlier tanking Vegeta's punches, so who cares if he can now dodge? Piccolo says "he breached Jiren's energy" and Vegeta smirks. That smirk to me says "this is my full power, now take me seriously". I don't think Vegeta got stronger from observing a technique or attack? That's not how that works. Vegeta ssjb =< Goku ssjb < Vegeta ssjb (s*** eating grin) Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 8 2018, 09:59 PM.
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| SuperSaiyanGodGogeta | Jan 9 2018, 01:41 AM Post #115 |
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Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Jiren was using less power than what he used against Goku and Goku punched him through some mountains, so Vegeta touching Jiren through his energy means nothing. I don't know how many times I have to say this. Vegeta hitting Jiren was only attributed to him analyzing the attack. It wasn't stated that he was stronger than Goku, so that's an assumption that people are going to have to substantiate, but can't because the story doesn't put Vegeta over Goku. There is nothing in the story stating that Vegeta needs to be stronger than Goku to do what he did. This is beyond ridiculous. The story gave a reason, but here fans are claiming that it was another reason entirely that Vegeta did what he did because they already have preconceived notions that Vegeta is stronger than Goku. Not to mention Toei's statement is being ignored for no reason at all. That statement alone closes this discussion entirely since it states that Goku and Frieza are the strongest, so Vegeta isn't stronger than them. |
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| superperfectnerd | Jan 9 2018, 04:12 AM Post #116 |
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But Vegeta already hit Jiren in his first attack and Jiren just took his punches, then Vegeta analyses an attack and can now hurt Jiren? That's not how power works. Vegeta must have simply not been showing his full power before. Goku didn't push Jiren through rocks now did he? Be honest. Gou had just gone max power at the start of a fight and Jiren had allowed himself to move with Goku's 'pushing'. Nobody remarked on Goku's power, nobody in Jiren's corner was concerned and moments later Jiren stmped ssjbkkx20 Goku with a glare. There's no feat there. That pushing means nothing. The blow to Jiren's body by Vegeta left Jiren with a stunned face and concern from his universe's god of destruction. You honestly believe Goku 'pushing' (moving with Jiren through some rocks whilst fighting) is the same as this feat by ssjb Vegeta? Goku, Piccolo, Beerus and Krillin all flabbergasted by Vegeta's performance as well. Ssjb Goku < ssjb Vegeta Before the Final Flash. I'm tired of saying it. Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 9 2018, 04:15 AM.
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| Kblo247 | Jan 9 2018, 10:01 AM Post #117 |
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They also note that Vegeta breaks through Jirena energy which had not been done unless if Jiren let them, same way no rocks or blasts from Kefla or Analiza touch him when he has that barrier up. They say Vegeta breaches it which Goku couldn’t, so yeah his blue is stronger, analysis or not |
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| Saiyan36 | Jan 9 2018, 03:37 PM Post #118 |
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UI equaling a massive power boost and even a transformation coming along with it, is also not how it works. We we get it shoved on our plates anyway. Have i stated anywhere Blue Vegeta radically could not have surpassed Blue Goku first round somehwere during the fight? I don't think so. I have only stated i have some doubts him being stronger than 20 times Kaioken Blue, let alone rivaling the Spirit Bomb, just by training in the ROSAT. |
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| superperfectnerd | Jan 9 2018, 06:21 PM Post #119 |
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Oh I doubt he's that strong too, I'm really only arguing with gogeta. I'm saying Vegeta is stronger than Goku's basic blue before he uses the Final Flash. Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 9 2018, 06:22 PM.
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| SuperSaiyanGodGogeta | Jan 9 2018, 06:49 PM Post #120 |
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Yes, Goku sent a stronger Jiren flying through rocks. Don't know how anyone can claim that he didn't. I don't see why the characters would have to make a remark on that. I don't know why you're bringing up the other characters because they only prove my point. Piccolo explained how Vegeta did what he did and you're claiming it's something else. So no, that isn't even worth a response. If you don't want to follow the story, that's your problem, not mine. |
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