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is currennt ssjb goku on par with ssjb vegeta again
Topic Started: Dec 27 2017, 11:24 PM (15,822 Views)
Dagon
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superperfectnerd
Jan 4 2018, 01:32 AM
I don't understand why Zamasu would be a weak part of the fusion as he's way stronger than base Goku and Vegeta.

Look at it this way.

Base Goku = 1
Base Vegeta = 2
Base Vegetto = 3
Ssjb Vegetto = 300

Base Black = 2
Zamasu = 50
Merged Zamasu = 52
Ssjr Merged Zamasu = 5200

I know those multipliers aren't accurate, I'm just making a point. Zamasu is above the base saiyans, meaning on their fusion a base being far stronger than a base saiyan inherits the super saiyan rose transformation he didn't have before. Logically Merged Zamasu should be far beyond Vegetto.
Actually, Zamasu was on par with SSJ2 Goku. Base Goku Black began at SSJ2 Goku's level, but in the first battle in the future, just before unveiling SSJRose, base black took a beating from Blue Vegeta and laughed it off. He then went on to get a few Zenkais and get stronger. So in reality base black was way beyond Zamasu by the time they fused.
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Saiyan36
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Dagon
Jan 4 2018, 04:09 AM
superperfectnerd
Jan 4 2018, 01:32 AM
I don't understand why Zamasu would be a weak part of the fusion as he's way stronger than base Goku and Vegeta.

Look at it this way.

Base Goku = 1
Base Vegeta = 2
Base Vegetto = 3
Ssjb Vegetto = 300

Base Black = 2
Zamasu = 50
Merged Zamasu = 52
Ssjr Merged Zamasu = 5200

I know those multipliers aren't accurate, I'm just making a point. Zamasu is above the base saiyans, meaning on their fusion a base being far stronger than a base saiyan inherits the super saiyan rose transformation he didn't have before. Logically Merged Zamasu should be far beyond Vegetto.
Actually, Zamasu was on par with SSJ2 Goku. Base Goku Black began at SSJ2 Goku's level, but in the first battle in the future, just before unveiling SSJRose, base black took a beating from Blue Vegeta and laughed it off. He then went on to get a few Zenkais and get stronger. So in reality base black was way beyond Zamasu by the time they fused.
That was Black activating his God-Ki before he went Super Saiyan Rosé.

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Dagon
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Saiyan36
Jan 4 2018, 02:09 PM
That was Black activating his God-Ki before he went Super Saiyan Rosé.

False. Black does not have two pools of ki. Two base theory is false and disproven. Get off of it.
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Saiyan36
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Dagon
Jan 4 2018, 02:50 PM
Saiyan36
Jan 4 2018, 02:09 PM
That was Black activating his God-Ki before he went Super Saiyan Rosé.

False. Black does not have two pools of ki. Two base theory is false and disproven. Get off of it.
Vegeta and Goku don't use real God-Ki in the anime. Black however does. During his first battle with Goku he wasn't using his true God-powers, like Goku was holding back his true power as well.

I think it's debatable the power difference was due to Zenkai-boosts from fights alone. The difference in power that's used is massive. I mean, he is clearing Blue Vegeta in base over there. Before he actually goes Rosé.

True divine beings you don't show it off visually how much of their true power they are using, unless Black changes to Super Saiyan Rosé you can't see it.
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Saiyan36
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I don't want to make this a semantic discussion. God-Ki allows to mask true level of strength, just like perfect Ki-control.

Activating God-Ki, i didn't actually meant the existence of two bases, i was more referring to the awakening of the true realm, estate of his power.

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superperfectnerd
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Dagon
Jan 4 2018, 04:09 AM
superperfectnerd
Jan 4 2018, 01:32 AM
I don't understand why Zamasu would be a weak part of the fusion as he's way stronger than base Goku and Vegeta.

Look at it this way.

Base Goku = 1
Base Vegeta = 2
Base Vegetto = 3
Ssjb Vegetto = 300

Base Black = 2
Zamasu = 50
Merged Zamasu = 52
Ssjr Merged Zamasu = 5200

I know those multipliers aren't accurate, I'm just making a point. Zamasu is above the base saiyans, meaning on their fusion a base being far stronger than a base saiyan inherits the super saiyan rose transformation he didn't have before. Logically Merged Zamasu should be far beyond Vegetto.
Actually, Zamasu was on par with SSJ2 Goku. Base Goku Black began at SSJ2 Goku's level, but in the first battle in the future, just before unveiling SSJRose, base black took a beating from Blue Vegeta and laughed it off. He then went on to get a few Zenkais and get stronger. So in reality base black was way beyond Zamasu by the time they fused.
You're quite right but my point was that two weakling (relatively speaking) base saiyans fusing and then getting the multiplier of blue to make them relevant <<< a fusion involving a being hundreds of times stronger than those base saiyans and then getting the multiplier of ssjr.

Base Black being anywhere near blue Vegeta is surely evidence for two base forms? Ssjr is the equivalent of ssjb, Black can't be getting that multiplier on top of a base form already stronger than ssjb. Goku and Vegeta could not catch up to that or do any damage whatsoever to Black if that was the case. It really doesn't make any sense whatsoever unless you have two base forms. Saying it hasn't been overtly stated doesn't make it make sense. If the writers aren't thinking about it then who cares? Why be adamant there is one base if the writers aren't thinking about it? The feats they are writing/animating MAKE that the case whether they acknowledge it or not.

Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 4 2018, 08:20 PM.
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Saiyan36
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superperfectnerd
Jan 4 2018, 08:18 PM
Dagon
Jan 4 2018, 04:09 AM
superperfectnerd
Jan 4 2018, 01:32 AM
I don't understand why Zamasu would be a weak part of the fusion as he's way stronger than base Goku and Vegeta.

Look at it this way.

Base Goku = 1
Base Vegeta = 2
Base Vegetto = 3
Ssjb Vegetto = 300

Base Black = 2
Zamasu = 50
Merged Zamasu = 52
Ssjr Merged Zamasu = 5200

I know those multipliers aren't accurate, I'm just making a point. Zamasu is above the base saiyans, meaning on their fusion a base being far stronger than a base saiyan inherits the super saiyan rose transformation he didn't have before. Logically Merged Zamasu should be far beyond Vegetto.
Actually, Zamasu was on par with SSJ2 Goku. Base Goku Black began at SSJ2 Goku's level, but in the first battle in the future, just before unveiling SSJRose, base black took a beating from Blue Vegeta and laughed it off. He then went on to get a few Zenkais and get stronger. So in reality base black was way beyond Zamasu by the time they fused.
You're quite right but my point was that two weakling (relatively speaking) base saiyans fusing and then getting the multiplier of blue to make them relevant <<< a fusion involving a being hundreds of times stronger than those base saiyans and then getting the multiplier of ssjr.

Base Black being anywhere near blue Vegeta is surely evidence for two base forms? Ssjr is the equivalent of ssjb, Black can't be getting that multiplier on top of a base form already stronger than ssjb. Goku and Vegeta could not catch up to that or do any damage whatsoever to Black if that was the case. It really doesn't make any sense whatsoever unless you have two base forms. Saying it hasn't been overtly stated doesn't make it make sense. If the writers aren't thinking about it then who cares? Why be adamant there is one base if the writers aren't thinking about it? The feats they are writing/animating MAKE that the case whether they acknowledge it or not.



If Black was not using his God-power in base whilst clearing Blue Vegeta first round, that would basically mean Blue Vegeta would have returned like thousands and thousands of times stronger from the ROSAT for manhandling Black during round two.

God-Ki allows the user to mask his true power. Beerus or Whis don't need different baseforms as well to control their power to a massive extend. One can also see Black not using his full strength as using his God-Ki. It's a form of superior Ki-control all divine beings have. In doing so, he would not actually be using two baseforms. That would mean he only restricted his power during his first encounter with Goku. You could also see it as two baseforms because of the massive power-differential involved. It's just how you prefer to call it or look at it.
Edited by Saiyan36, Jan 4 2018, 09:47 PM.
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Dagon
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superperfectnerd
Jan 4 2018, 08:18 PM
You're quite right but my point was that two weakling (relatively speaking) base saiyans fusing and then getting the multiplier of blue to make them relevant <<< a fusion involving a being hundreds of times stronger than those base saiyans and then getting the multiplier of ssjr.

Base Black being anywhere near blue Vegeta is surely evidence for two base forms? Ssjr is the equivalent of ssjb, Black can't be getting that multiplier on top of a base form already stronger than ssjb. Goku and Vegeta could not catch up to that or do any damage whatsoever to Black if that was the case. It really doesn't make any sense whatsoever unless you have two base forms. Saying it hasn't been overtly stated doesn't make it make sense. If the writers aren't thinking about it then who cares? Why be adamant there is one base if the writers aren't thinking about it? The feats they are writing/animating MAKE that the case whether they acknowledge it or not.

It's not evidence of two base forms. Simply means that in between base Black fighting SSJ2 Goku and later fighting Blue Vegeta, he just got that much stronger. Base black has the same ki signature as Zamasu. It's how Beerus and Whis were able to suspect Zamasu of being involved. If base Goku Black does not have a god ki signature, then his ki wouldn't feel like Zamasu, who is a Kai(i.e. god) in training and later a full god. So Zamasu inherently has god ki and kept it when he transferred to Goku's body.

Think about it:

Zamasu = SSJ2 Goku

1st Round Base Goku Black = SSJ2 Goku

Coincidence?

Zamasu just kept his same power level and ki when he swapped bodies with Goku and took advantage of saiyan biology to continually improve his strength. In this way base Goku Black is more akin to SSJG Goku in a way, since he has god ki all the time from originally being Zamasu.

Personally I have the "stacked SSJG" form as 10x SSJ3, and Blue is 50x SSJG, so I'd put it in a scale that looks like this:

Goku Black Arc

The Present(Round 1):

Goku:
~Base: 1
~SSJ: 50
~SSJ2: 100
~SSJ3: 400
~SSJG: 4,000
~SSJB: 200,000

Goku Black:
~Base: 100

The Future(Round 2):

Vegeta:
~Base: 1
~SSJB: 200,000

Goku Black:
~Base: 200,000
~SSJR: 10,000,000
~+Multiple Zenkais: 15,000,000

Vegeta(Round 3):
~Base: 150
~SSJB: 30,000,000

Edited by Dagon, Jan 5 2018, 04:03 AM.
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superperfectnerd
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So Vegeta is 150 times Goku by the end of the Black arc?

And what about the manga with ssj 2 Trunks <= ssj3 Goku < base Black < ssj Black < ssj2 Vegeta (before ROSAT)
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Dagon
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superperfectnerd
Jan 5 2018, 03:12 PM
So Vegeta is 150 times Goku by the end of the Black arc?

And what about the manga with ssj 2 Trunks <= ssj3 Goku < base Black < ssj Black < ssj2 Vegeta (before ROSAT)
Manga is the manga. Haven't read it, don't power scale it.
Vegeta is 150x-ish stronger than Goku started in the black arc. By the time the black arc is over, Goku got a couple zenkais and rage boosts, so the gap was closed somewhat.

But in the manga, well maybe vegeta is 100x stronger than Goku before they even go to the future lol.
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superperfectnerd
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You were saying?
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Dagon
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superperfectnerd
Jan 7 2018, 03:22 AM
You were saying?
Trying to be cheeky because of the new episode? I never said that CURRENT Vegeta is 150x stronger than CURRENT Goku. The Goku Black arc is what has the large gap. It is lessened due to Goku's zenkais and and whatnot, but Vegeta did have a lead over Goku for a time in that arc.

The gap between them in the ToP is still unclear, but it is of course not gigantic. Vegeta may have some kind of lead in power over Goku because he did dismiss Goku's taunt about surpassing him in the recruiting phase.

superperfectnerd
 
So Vegeta is 150 times Goku by the end of the Black arc?

I missed that you said "end of the Black arc." No, Vegeta's not 150x Goku by the END of the Goku black arc, he gets that strong after his RoSaT trip, and the gap later closes. I never meant to propose the idea that Vegeta has maintained a 150x gap over Goku ever since.
Edited by Dagon, Jan 7 2018, 04:21 AM.
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superperfectnerd
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It was in response to people saying that the preview indicated nothing, those saying "Goku pushed Jiren through some rocks in blue so that punch and kick landed by Vegeta mean nothing", when the episode implied those hits were a very big deal, Belmod and Toppo were even concerned about Jiren being pushed back. The Final Flash also turned out to be an even more credible threat than the Spirit Bomb.

It was a little cheeky, yeah but we didn't know how it would go down until now.

I already know what's coming though "Vegeta said Jiren was faster and stronger against Goku". Yeah, Ultra Instinct Goku.
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Kblo247
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Vegeta did trump the Spirit Bomb ... Belmod asked if that was the true power of the saiyans?
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Dagon
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superperfectnerd
Jan 7 2018, 04:34 AM
It was in response to people saying that the preview indicated nothing, those saying "Goku pushed Jiren through some rocks in blue so that punch and kick landed by Vegeta mean nothing", when the episode implied those hits were a very big deal, Belmod and Toppo were even concerned about Jiren being pushed back. The Final Flash also turned out to be an even more credible threat than the Spirit Bomb.

It was a little cheeky, yeah but we didn't know how it would go down until now.

I already know what's coming though "Vegeta said Jiren was faster and stronger against Goku". Yeah, Ultra Instinct Goku.
My newest scaling calculations may suggest that by the time of the Goku Black Arc, Vegeta may be somewhere around 2-3x stronger than Goku in equal forms.
So base Goku black starts stronger than Blue Vegeta. Vegeta was surprised that Black could get close to him. Then Black turns Rose, so that's >50x Vegeta.
Goku gets a rage boost at the story of Black killing Chi Chi and Goten. This boost puts him above then current Rose Black by a small degree until Black gets stronger once again.
Whether or not the rage boost was permanent is unclear. For argument's sake we can say it's permanent.
Then Vegeta gets much stronger than Black because of the RoSaT. Might as well say roundabout 2x difference.
Based on those calculations, if Vegeta is a 1, Goku Black starts >1, becomes >50, then gets moderately stronger after the first round, say 60-ish Goku becomes, say a 70-ish, then Black becomes, say 80-ish, then Vegeta becomes 160-ish.

Goku then had to have gotten somewhere around 2x stronger after breaking his limits against Jiren and Kefla, and he and Vegeta had similar showings against Jiren in episode 122, though Vegeta appeared to have a slight edge in being able to see through Jiren's attack pattern. So Vegeta would appear to have a slight advantage over Goku but probably not more than 2-3x at the moment. This would mean at the start of the tournament Vegeta could have as high as a 5x gap or so over Goku, until Goku broke his limits.
Edited by Dagon, Jan 7 2018, 07:47 AM.
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