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is currennt ssjb goku on par with ssjb vegeta again
Topic Started: Dec 27 2017, 11:24 PM (15,823 Views)
SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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It's obviously still relevant because your basis for toei somehow being wrong is that they contradicted the show. You adamantly believed this to be true despite having no evidence whatsoever. Though I'm not getting into another "debate" over this. You simply posted nothing that would quantify as evidence.
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zombie2599
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Jan 2 2018, 03:50 AM
It's obviously still relevant because your basis for toei somehow being wrong is that they contradicted the show. You adamantly believed this to be true despite having no evidence whatsoever. Though I'm not getting into another "debate" over this. You simply posted nothing that would quantify as evidence.
supersaiyangodgogeta

i am curious too as to your stand on gokus potential

do u think he kept at least some of the power he unlocked from breaking his shell or do u think its all contained in ultra instinct

im asking this regardless of your opinion on gokus power compared to vegetas
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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He isn't implied to have gotten stronger, so him breaking through his shell is something ultra instinct specific.

I don't see why he would have gotten stronger in his lower forms.
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StrenuousSpider
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Jan 2 2018, 03:50 AM
It's obviously still relevant because your basis for toei somehow being wrong is that they contradicted the show. You adamantly believed this to be true despite having no evidence whatsoever. Though I'm not getting into another "debate" over this. You simply posted nothing that would quantify as evidence.
I could say the same to you but we had stopped talking about that and moved on to toei in general about how toei dose something then another. They did it in the movies they did it in Z filler they did it in GT and now super. So sorry i dont take toeis word for much going off there past over the franchise in general. I agree no need to go into the whole black arc stuff as to me we clearly moved on from that topic so i dont see why you feel you need to bring it up again. So ill just leave it at that as i see no reason to continue that debate.
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zombie2599
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Jan 2 2018, 04:04 AM
He isn't implied to have gotten stronger, so him breaking through his shell is something ultra instinct specific.

I don't see why he would have gotten stronger in his lower forms.
i see sides for both who is stronger,

i mainly see vegeta as a regular ssjb as stronger, though not huge like the others have,

i have him 2x goku which is alot by db standards, however i base this off the toppo goku fight as they were even, but once toppo started to get serious goku thought he should use kaioken, which i think was the basic of doubling his power

vegeta later fights toppo and he seems to be fighting pretty decently against a guy goku was doubling his power for

though i can see the side for goku being stronger
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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Goku used kaioken against gohan, it doesn't mean that gohan was stronger than blue. Goku used kaioken against a foe that he wasn't sure he could beat with blue. It could've gone either way. and this doesn't take into account the bit of training that the saiyans did before the TOP.
Toppo is roughly the same strength as ssb goku and vegeta.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Jan 2 2018, 04:57 AM.
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Saiyan36
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@ Strenous Spider
Merged Zamasu being arrogant and only using a fraction of his true power, never was a real big argument for me. And for you neither. We think the same about that as not being a logical argument. I've spread my arguments throughout the latest pages of this thread why i think Vegeta wasn't 10 times stronger than Goku during the Goku Black arc. Especially for you, as a newyear's gift, i've put them together and made a resume, with a nice pom-pom attached.

Arguments
I don't expect you to follow me (at all) on this one. It's just in order to give you an insight how i came to this conclusion and reasoning. I have somehow throught about it, before giving you this indication. It does not come out of nowhere.

1. Blue Goku did not use any Kaioken against Black and Zamasu
Considering the situation, it would indeed be rather logical Blue Goku used his full power. But: if the writers really intended that, why didn't they give him Kaioken in that specific sequence? We all know he could boost his Blue-level till at least 10 times by then. Wy didn't he use it? Well, if you would consider he didn't use Kaioken at that point, that's enough reason to at least suspect he didn't show his true Blue power there at that fight.
When he does use Kaioken in the show, it's always clearly shown. Against Merged Zamasu he used it only after he used his full Blue-power, which makes perfect sense. When he would have used full Blue or Kaioken against non-fused Zamasu and Black, that rage sequence would have become quite 'unbelievable' at the ending of the arc, knowing what he used against Merged Zamasu.

During TOP he used it in episode 117 as well against U3 to blast through the black hole. Because the situation intended he really needed it at that point. With his rage-attack against Black and Zamasu, one could suggest he needed it, but one could also suggest he did not and still spared up something for later on.

Maybe that sounds weird. Considering the situation how enraged he was because of the loss of his family. But on the other hand: storyboard-writers of fiction use that trick quite a lot. They don't show what's actually going on behind the scenes, in order to give a surprise-act/effect later on this show. It isn't the first time they used this in Dragon Ball. It's actually a classic. So why would they not have dared to use it on this one?

2. Vegeta did not withstand the attack of Merged Zamasu, Goku did
Correct me if I’m wrong. But if the writers intended Vegeta to be indeed a lot stronger (let’s say 5 to 10 times) than Goku, why Goku basically withstood that first big energy attack (Blades of Judgement) from Merged Zamasu, and Vegeta didn’t? That’s regardless of the fact how much power Merged Zamasu effectively used.

Instead. Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.

3.Goku stating: "I ain't losing. Her's my full power!" / Goku always sparing his true power till the end of the arc
This is the first time he actually says that during the arc. He didn’t say it during his rage against Zamasu and Black. Would it make sense for Goku to state this when he already would have used his full power earlier?
Goku never shows his true power untill the end. In TOP it'll be the same with perfected UI only coming up at the very end.
This concept always comes back in Dragon Ball. It's a true classic actually. When Goku and Black, had their first fight: Trunks is confused as to why Goku is not using his Super Saiyan 3 powers, when Vegeta explains Goku's bad habit of holding back his power during the beginning of battles.

4. Vegeta looked a lot impressive when he took on Black the second round, but Goku had two opponents to care for
Both Goku and Vegeta have a second round battle against Black. Vegeta looked vey impressive against Black. That’s indeed true. But Goku did as well. As a matter of fact, he took on both of them, both Black and Zamasu.
Goku and Vegeta were owning Black, until he started off with his Ki-manipulating game. Both didn’t actually defeated him at that point. So how can we take this as an ultimate reference point for their true Blue-power?

5.When was Goku not a lot stronger than Vegeta without using Kaioken, whilst not being ill or heavily wounded?
He did need Kaioken to fill the gap before he went SSJ1 for the first time in DBZ. But hasn’t Vegeta always been in the pursuit since then? It’s one of the classic features of DBZ, Vegeta sometimes manages to somehow catch up, but then Goku appears to be stronger in the end of the day anyway.

6.They show Vegeta is more training like Goku. But who says Goku hasn’t trained?
Who says Goku hasn't trained? It's not if they don't show it to us (referring to point 1 about fiction and surprising the audience), that's a prooven fact he wouldn't train.

That's why we all have so much respect for Vegeta, he always sems to put so much more effort in it all than Goku, without him getting his final moment of the glory against a final boss.
Is that coincidence? I frankly don't think so. It's pretty spot-on-writing for that specific character.

7. In the manga, Blue Goku was stronger as well
Considering the fact we maybe can not consider the manga as 100 % canon like in Z, even so, the main story features stay the same and nothing happens without Toriyama-autorisation. Blue Goku was the strongest against Merged Zamasu in the manga as well in the anime. Maybe this evidence does not stand on it’s own, but it’s no coincidence as well.

Conclusion
Based on these assumptions, that’s what I’ve got for you now:
Blue Vegetto > Merged Zamasu (full power) > Blue Goku Kaioken > Blue Goku (full power) >~< Merged Zamasu (heavily restricted) > Blue Vegeta (enraged, 2nd round) >~ Blue Goku (enraged, 2nd round) > Trunks strengthened Super Saiyan 2 >~< Goku Black Rosé > Goku Blue (1st round) > Vegeta Blue (1ste round) > Goku Super Saiyan 2 >~< Goku Black Base > Trunks Super Saiyan 2 >~ Future Zamasu
Edited by Saiyan36, Jan 2 2018, 06:14 PM.
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superperfectnerd
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Goku certainly didn't show himself to be stronger in the manga in regular blue, he just showed he had completed blue when Vegeta didn't. in fact in the manga ssj2 Vegeta seems to be hundreds of times stronger than ssj2 Goku before he trained in the ROSAT based on ssj2 Goku < ssj2 Trunks =< ssj3 Goku < base Black < ssj Black < ssj2 Vegeta but I do believe that to be a massive inconsistency. However Goku is impressed when Vegeta fights and beats Black again in the second round and his stamina in god and blue have decreased from fighting but Vegeta's did not. Goku is a better martial artist than Vegeta and had figured out the next level of blue but in regular blue Vegeta seems stronger to me. Ssjb Goku < ssjr Black < ssjb Vegeta < cssjb Goku < cssjb Vegeta (hypothetical)

Goku rages at Blac in the anime and Zamasu is nothing compared to ssjb, why would Goku's full ssjb power not be present then? He still loses to Black. A zenkai boost could have powered him up as much as Vegeta's ROSAT arguably thanks to the nature of his wounds, his body was pierced all over, surely the type of damage sustained would effect how potent a zenkai is, plus Goku's body has experienced ssjbkkx10 so a zenkai may take that max level into account. The only logical reason for Goku not using kaioken in that arc is that after it's usage in the Champa arc Goku had heeded King Kai's warning and knew he hadn't actually mastered the form yet, meaning if he strained himself using it so soon after the last time he would really tear his body apart. Nothing about that arc until the kamehameha Goku uses against Merged Zamasu suggest Goku is above Vegeta, and that moment seems like major PIS to me. Vegeta and Trunks were also using the Galick Gun and the Kamehameha is superior to that and Goku also broke his arms drilling his blast through Zamasu's attack. I do believe that Goku has trained more than Vegeta since that arc ended though, I think he trained with Whis for a while before the tournament was suggested and Vegeta stayed with Bulma but then they re-equalised when Vegeta went into the ROSAT. That's what I was thinking before but now Vegeta could be stronger than we thought. We'll see.
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+ Pyrus
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Vegeta was definitely stronger than Goku prior to Complete Blue in the manga.
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Saiyan36
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I know, i just see this extremely strong full power Blue Goku in the anime as the equivalent of CSSB in the manga.

Blue requires a perfect balance between calmness, selfcontrol and anger. It suits the character of Goku better to fully tap into 'God-power' from that perspective. I think he manages to find that right balance better. Vegeta fights are more based on anger and rage. Maybe that's the reason why he doesn't get the same out of it?
Edited by Saiyan36, Jan 3 2018, 07:28 PM.
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superperfectnerd
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Saiyan36
Jan 3 2018, 06:06 PM
I know, i just see this extremely strong full power Blue Goku in the anime as the equivalent of CSSB in the manga.

Blue requires calmness and selfcontrol. Not agression. It suits the character of Goku better to fully tap into 'God-power' from that perspective. Vegeta fights are more based on anger and rage. Maybe that's the reason why he doesn't get the same out of it?
That seems like reaching to me. Feats wise Goku << Vegeta in both the anime and the manga until cssjb and that god awful Kamehameha struggle against Merged Zamasu. Tbh the Galick Gun struggle is pretty stupid too, Merged Zamasu should be waaay above both if he's relative to Vegetto.

That scene only works if ssjb Goku < ssjb Vegeta < Merged Zamasu < Light of Justice Merged Zamasu <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Monster Merged Zamasu

So many better ways to do that scene. Trunks and Vegeta locked in the beam struggle whilst Merged Zamasu toys with them and Goku IT's behind his enemy, goes ssjbkkx20 and breaks the halo directly with a Kamehameha. Makes much more sense than a Vegetto level opponent being overpowered by 3 non-fused individuals in a straight up 2 v 1 beam struggle and then a 1 v 1 beam struggle one after another.
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Saiyan36
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superperfectnerd
Jan 3 2018, 07:29 PM
Saiyan36
Jan 3 2018, 06:06 PM
I know, i just see this extremely strong full power Blue Goku in the anime as the equivalent of CSSB in the manga.

Blue requires calmness and selfcontrol. Not agression. It suits the character of Goku better to fully tap into 'God-power' from that perspective. Vegeta fights are more based on anger and rage. Maybe that's the reason why he doesn't get the same out of it?
That seems like reaching to me. Feats wise Goku << Vegeta in both the anime and the manga until cssjb and that god awful Kamehameha struggle against Merged Zamasu. Tbh the Galick Gun struggle is pretty stupid too, Merged Zamasu should be waaay above both if he's relative to Vegetto.

That scene only works if ssjb Goku < ssjb Vegeta < Merged Zamasu < Light of Justice Merged Zamasu <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Monster Merged Zamasu

So many better ways to do that scene. Trunks and Vegeta locked in the beam struggle whilst Merged Zamasu toys with them and Goku IT's behind his enemy, goes ssjbkkx20 and breaks the halo directly with a Kamehameha. Makes much more sense than a Vegetto level opponent being overpowered by 3 non-fused individuals in a straight up 2 v 1 beam struggle and then a 1 v 1 beam struggle one after another.
The power Vegeta used against Black second round, could have been (far) greater than Goku used against Black in rage, yes.
But i did want to leave that one open. I never really disagreed on that one. My opinion is 'we don't really know for sure'. But yeah, i can dig yours too, it stand to reason Blue Vegeta used more power there.

It's maybe more viable Goku managed to find some extra in the pocket tue to his ability to combine commitment and self-control in critical situations.
That might explain also why a 'less raged Goku' manages to excert more power from Blue.

That scene against Merged Zamasu was, of course over the top, guys. Even taken into considaration the Zamasu-part of thar fusion was very weak on a power scale-base and him not going full power from the start. He only brought immortality into the baggy. It was still a very powerfull fusion at the end.
But this is the closest i get at this point to finding an explaination with some reason.

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superperfectnerd
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I don't understand why Zamasu would be a weak part of the fusion as he's way stronger than base Goku and Vegeta.

Look at it this way.

Base Goku = 1
Base Vegeta = 2
Base Vegetto = 3
Ssjb Vegetto = 300

Base Black = 2
Zamasu = 50
Merged Zamasu = 52
Ssjr Merged Zamasu = 5200

I know those multipliers aren't accurate, I'm just making a point. Zamasu is above the base saiyans, meaning on their fusion a base being far stronger than a base saiyan inherits the super saiyan rose transformation he didn't have before. Logically Merged Zamasu should be far beyond Vegetto.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 4 2018, 01:52 AM.
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+ Pyrus
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It was likely taking into consideration the overall power of the fusees, otherwise Merged Zamasu being so pitifully weak makes no sense for the reason you pointed out. Zamasu held back Goku Black just like Hercs or Dende would've done to Goku in the Boo Saga.
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superperfectnerd
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Pyrus
Jan 4 2018, 01:36 AM
It was likely taking into consideration the overall power of the fusees, otherwise Merged Zamasu being so pitifully weak makes no sense for the reason you pointed out. Zamasu held back Goku Black just like Hercs or Dende would've done to Goku in the Boo Saga.
I get what you're saying but Hercs and Dende are far weaker than base Vegeta, Zamasu is far stronger than base Vegeta and is then getting ssjr from Black but yeah fusion is inconsistent anyway.

It'd be like Goku fusing with Piccolo in the androids arc and the resulting fusion having base Piccolo able to go ssj versus Goku and Vegeta fusing. Each fusion only gets 1 ssj multiplier but Piccolo is far stronger to begin with without ssj.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 4 2018, 01:53 AM.
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