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is currennt ssjb goku on par with ssjb vegeta again
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Topic Started: Dec 27 2017, 11:24 PM (15,824 Views)
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Saiyan36
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Dec 31 2017, 01:33 PM
Post #46
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double post, sorry.
Edited by Saiyan36, Dec 31 2017, 01:57 PM.
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Saiyan36
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Dec 31 2017, 01:56 PM
Post #47
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- superperfectnerd
- Dec 31 2017, 01:12 PM
- Saiyan36
- Dec 31 2017, 12:12 PM
- StrenuousSpider
- Dec 31 2017, 02:00 AM
- Saiyan36
- Dec 30 2017, 12:46 PM
- Dagon
- Dec 30 2017, 03:21 AM
- SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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http://oi63.tinypic.com/2efpyrd.jpgWe already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza. The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.
For me it comes from power scaling the Goku Black arc, and making logical assumptions on what power gains could have occurred since. Goku Black Arc: Goku/Vegeta: SSJB: 1 Goku Black(1st battle in the future, when Vegeta gets stabbed by Rose Black): ~Base: 1 (did not really take any damage from Vegeta. This is a lowball for me.) ~SSJRose: 50(SSJRose is Goku Black's version of SSJ, so is probably a 50x boost) Vegeta(Rematch against Black, post RoSaT) ~SSJB: 100 (absolutely mauled SSJR Goku Black.) Now here's where it gets a bit interesting. Ok, Goku fought hit in a rematch. They fought to a draw. Both got more powerful since the U6 Arc. In the U6 arc, Goku used Blue Kaio-Ken x10 to break Hit's time skip dimension. In the rematch, regular Blue Goku broke Hit's time dimension, no Kaio-Ken used. That means Goku got at barest minimum 10x stronger. If Blue Goku was a 10, then his KKx10 would make him match Vegeta's 100 on my scale. KKx20 would make him twice as powerful as Vegeta. So Goku would still have the edge over Vegeta with the use of Kaio-Ken. But that's a lowball. We know Goku must be higher than a 10 because Hit was stronger than the last time, so he'd be stronger than U6 KKx10 Goku by a notable amount. Goku black actually got an amount stronger in between the first and second fights with Vegeta, and Blue Vegeta still wrecked him easily in their rematch. Vegeta would have had to get in the realm of 100x stronger to have that effect against Goku Black. Goku did get stronger from zenkais and at least one rage moment but he still has a huge gap to catch up to Vegeta before the Tournament of Power. This is at least how they stood back in the Goku Black arc. Whether or not Goku has caught up to Vegeta's level since then is unknown. Vegeta doesn't have any absolutely definitive, in no uncertain terms, direct power statements, just a few vague feats, in the ToP. We will find out for sure in the coming episodes when Vegeta fights at max power.
At the end of the arc. When Future Zamasu was arisen, Blue Goku showed his true power. "I ain't losing. Her's my full power!" And he pushed Zamasu's energy beam back, damaging Zamasu's body in the process. That was before he even used Kaioken. Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.
Yet goku was completely helpless against black. If goku was truly that strong without any kind of being desperate or anger why did he not crush black why did he let himself get his a*** kicked constantly even after several rage boost and finding out goten and chichi where killed. You would think the guy after coming to near death on several occasions with a futile fight would go full power no. Its as simple as merged zamasu holding back until vegito appeared.
If Vegeta was indeed dozens of times stronger: why didn't he stand the longest against Merged Zamasu before Vegito became obliged, while Goku was hanging in the ropes? The fact Merged Zamasu didn't use full power isn't enough proof in my opinion. They were both subjected to the same attacks and yet Goku stood till the end and Vegeta did not. Goku and Vegeta were both pretty much owning Black with their rage in Blue before he started his Ki-manipulation game.
It's bad writing, one episode outright implies Vegeta has trained, harnessed his rage at Black and surpassed everyone else in the battlefield and then the next episode somebody went "oh s*** this is the Goku show! Got to give him an inexplicable feat to make him look better than everyone else!" Moments after a cool father son Galick Gun and Vegeta finally besting a main antagonist Goku has to come out of nowhere and diminish it all with no explanation as to how he did better. Although, Kamehameha > Galick Gun. Vegeta may have been able to do the same to Zamasu if not more with a Final Flash. Gotta wait for the episode really but as of the preview ssjb Vegeta looks far stronger than ssjb Goku did in his first fight with Jiren and even kaioken. Rmember Vegeta still wanted to fight Jiren after seeing Goku lose but he may have thought Goku had the advantage with UI and just ran out of time, so he thinks he doesn't have t be UI level to challenge Jiren, he just needs to be stronger than ssjbkkx20 Goku, which is still a massive stretch. I don't think acquiring UI is about power thresholds, it's about training to move instinctively and then pushing your body when at breaking point and breaking those limits. Goku has been in situations to do this, Vegeta has not and Vegeta "has a chip on his shoulder" so isn't as naturally capable of UI as Goku is. Goku's weakness is letting his guard down but that doesn't affect his max power, it doesn't hold him back. Vegeta was told he needs to learn to rest like Goku and not be wound so tightly to reach his full potential and even after being told this in Super Vegeta continued to train through the night whilst Goku slept. This isn't an advantage, this weakens Vegeta, he doesn't have the balance than Goku has. I don't have to tell you there is a difference between what writers tend to show and what is effectively going on. It's in order to create a certain tension for the audience. We only have seen Vegeta trading a few blows with Jiren and hitting him, why do we automatically would conclude he is almost like UI Goku first round battle, just because the punch he lands on Jiren seems harder? It looks cool, and it has fans discussing the episode. So it gets the job done. If Blue Goku is able to throw Jiren through a mountain, do we have to call that bad writing as well, as we know what happened afterwards?
Who says Goku hasn't trained? It's not if they don't show it to us, that's a prooven fact he wouldn't train.
That's why we all have so much respect for Vegeta, he always sems to put so much more effort in it all than Goku, without him getting his final moment of the glory against a final boss. Is that coincidence? I frankly don't think so. It's pretty spot-on-writing for that specific character.
If Black was not able to manipulate Ki or do any tricks, they would both have beaten him in Blue. There is a difference between power level and technique involved. That one moment when Black Rosé blocked / pushed Goku away, to give him a blow, before his Ki-manipulation started, was that enough convincing evidence Blue Vegeta was indeed 20 / 30 / 40 times stronger than Blue Goku? That KMHM against Merged Zamasu was a pure power struggle. In my opinion such a thing says more about power level.
If they bring on convincing proof Vegeta being 40 times stronger than Blue Goku against Jiren first round in the coming episodes, so be it. At the moment i don't see enough convincing evidence to make such a statement.
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StrenuousSpider
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Dec 31 2017, 11:32 PM
Post #48
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- Saiyan36
- Dec 31 2017, 12:12 PM
- StrenuousSpider
- Dec 31 2017, 02:00 AM
- Saiyan36
- Dec 30 2017, 12:46 PM
- Dagon
- Dec 30 2017, 03:21 AM
- SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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http://oi63.tinypic.com/2efpyrd.jpgWe already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza. The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.
For me it comes from power scaling the Goku Black arc, and making logical assumptions on what power gains could have occurred since. Goku Black Arc: Goku/Vegeta: SSJB: 1 Goku Black(1st battle in the future, when Vegeta gets stabbed by Rose Black): ~Base: 1 (did not really take any damage from Vegeta. This is a lowball for me.) ~SSJRose: 50(SSJRose is Goku Black's version of SSJ, so is probably a 50x boost) Vegeta(Rematch against Black, post RoSaT) ~SSJB: 100 (absolutely mauled SSJR Goku Black.) Now here's where it gets a bit interesting. Ok, Goku fought hit in a rematch. They fought to a draw. Both got more powerful since the U6 Arc. In the U6 arc, Goku used Blue Kaio-Ken x10 to break Hit's time skip dimension. In the rematch, regular Blue Goku broke Hit's time dimension, no Kaio-Ken used. That means Goku got at barest minimum 10x stronger. If Blue Goku was a 10, then his KKx10 would make him match Vegeta's 100 on my scale. KKx20 would make him twice as powerful as Vegeta. So Goku would still have the edge over Vegeta with the use of Kaio-Ken. But that's a lowball. We know Goku must be higher than a 10 because Hit was stronger than the last time, so he'd be stronger than U6 KKx10 Goku by a notable amount. Goku black actually got an amount stronger in between the first and second fights with Vegeta, and Blue Vegeta still wrecked him easily in their rematch. Vegeta would have had to get in the realm of 100x stronger to have that effect against Goku Black. Goku did get stronger from zenkais and at least one rage moment but he still has a huge gap to catch up to Vegeta before the Tournament of Power. This is at least how they stood back in the Goku Black arc. Whether or not Goku has caught up to Vegeta's level since then is unknown. Vegeta doesn't have any absolutely definitive, in no uncertain terms, direct power statements, just a few vague feats, in the ToP. We will find out for sure in the coming episodes when Vegeta fights at max power.
At the end of the arc. When Future Zamasu was arisen, Blue Goku showed his true power. "I ain't losing. Her's my full power!" And he pushed Zamasu's energy beam back, damaging Zamasu's body in the process. That was before he even used Kaioken. Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.
Yet goku was completely helpless against black. If goku was truly that strong without any kind of being desperate or anger why did he not crush black why did he let himself get his a*** kicked constantly even after several rage boost and finding out goten and chichi where killed. You would think the guy after coming to near death on several occasions with a futile fight would go full power no. Its as simple as merged zamasu holding back until vegito appeared.
If Vegeta was indeed dozens of times stronger: why didn't he stand the longest against Merged Zamasu before Vegito became obliged, while Goku was hanging in the ropes? The fact Merged Zamasu didn't use full power isn't enough proof in my opinion. They were both subjected to the same attacks and yet Goku stood till the end and Vegeta did not. Goku and Vegeta were both pretty much owning Black with their rage in Blue before he started his Ki-manipulation game. Right so i guess black is nearing merged zamasu level if goku cant even scratch him yet can scratch zamasu. But i guess that means goku is nearing vegito as well.
It is also funny how goku needed kaioken to even break zamasus grip yet he can do even more without kaioken.
The fact he at one point needed kaioken. Was useless against black even after seeing vegeta nearly killed, goten and chichi being killed. Vegeta outright trashing the strongest version of black which the weakest version of black trashed goku.
The events that happened prior prove that zamasu was not going all out against them. Like ive said a few times already that feat if it was even 10% would put goku in the realm of vegito blue. And in that case x20 would equal vegito blue which is just absurd.
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Saiyan36
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Dec 31 2017, 11:59 PM
Post #49
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- StrenuousSpider
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- StrenuousSpider
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- Saiyan36
- Dec 30 2017, 12:46 PM
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- Dec 30 2017, 03:21 AM
- SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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http://oi63.tinypic.com/2efpyrd.jpgWe already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza. The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.
For me it comes from power scaling the Goku Black arc, and making logical assumptions on what power gains could have occurred since. Goku Black Arc: Goku/Vegeta: SSJB: 1 Goku Black(1st battle in the future, when Vegeta gets stabbed by Rose Black): ~Base: 1 (did not really take any damage from Vegeta. This is a lowball for me.) ~SSJRose: 50(SSJRose is Goku Black's version of SSJ, so is probably a 50x boost) Vegeta(Rematch against Black, post RoSaT) ~SSJB: 100 (absolutely mauled SSJR Goku Black.) Now here's where it gets a bit interesting. Ok, Goku fought hit in a rematch. They fought to a draw. Both got more powerful since the U6 Arc. In the U6 arc, Goku used Blue Kaio-Ken x10 to break Hit's time skip dimension. In the rematch, regular Blue Goku broke Hit's time dimension, no Kaio-Ken used. That means Goku got at barest minimum 10x stronger. If Blue Goku was a 10, then his KKx10 would make him match Vegeta's 100 on my scale. KKx20 would make him twice as powerful as Vegeta. So Goku would still have the edge over Vegeta with the use of Kaio-Ken. But that's a lowball. We know Goku must be higher than a 10 because Hit was stronger than the last time, so he'd be stronger than U6 KKx10 Goku by a notable amount. Goku black actually got an amount stronger in between the first and second fights with Vegeta, and Blue Vegeta still wrecked him easily in their rematch. Vegeta would have had to get in the realm of 100x stronger to have that effect against Goku Black. Goku did get stronger from zenkais and at least one rage moment but he still has a huge gap to catch up to Vegeta before the Tournament of Power. This is at least how they stood back in the Goku Black arc. Whether or not Goku has caught up to Vegeta's level since then is unknown. Vegeta doesn't have any absolutely definitive, in no uncertain terms, direct power statements, just a few vague feats, in the ToP. We will find out for sure in the coming episodes when Vegeta fights at max power.
At the end of the arc. When Future Zamasu was arisen, Blue Goku showed his true power. "I ain't losing. Her's my full power!" And he pushed Zamasu's energy beam back, damaging Zamasu's body in the process. That was before he even used Kaioken. Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.
Yet goku was completely helpless against black. If goku was truly that strong without any kind of being desperate or anger why did he not crush black why did he let himself get his a*** kicked constantly even after several rage boost and finding out goten and chichi where killed. You would think the guy after coming to near death on several occasions with a futile fight would go full power no. Its as simple as merged zamasu holding back until vegito appeared.
If Vegeta was indeed dozens of times stronger: why didn't he stand the longest against Merged Zamasu before Vegito became obliged, while Goku was hanging in the ropes? The fact Merged Zamasu didn't use full power isn't enough proof in my opinion. They were both subjected to the same attacks and yet Goku stood till the end and Vegeta did not. Goku and Vegeta were both pretty much owning Black with their rage in Blue before he started his Ki-manipulation game.
Right so i guess black is nearing merged zamasu level if goku cant even scratch him yet can scratch zamasu. But i guess that means goku is nearing vegito as well. It is also funny how goku needed kaioken to even break zamasus grip yet he can do even more without kaioken. The fact he at one point needed kaioken. Was useless against black even after seeing vegeta nearly killed, goten and chichi being killed. Vegeta outright trashing the strongest version of black which the weakest version of black trashed goku. The events that happened prior prove that zamasu was not going all out against them. Like ive said a few times already that feat if it was even 10% would put goku in the realm of vegito blue. And in that case x20 would equal vegito blue which is just absurd. I've only stated the facts.
From the fights Goku vs Black and Vegeta vs Black we can get an indication, but it still is an interpretation, because they weren't really fighting side-by-side. Against Merged Zamasu they were. So that gives a more objective reproduction of their true Blue power.
I also never stated anything about Full Blue Goku's power in relationship with Merged Zamasu's or Blue Vegetto's true power. I could imagine Merged Zamasu, arrogant as he is, would have thought a very small portion of his power would be enough and somehow underestimated Goku at that beam struggle.
If Goku would have been stronger, you think the storytellers would have hung it beneath our noses from the beginning of the arc? It would have given Goku's surprise full monty act at the end completely away.
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StrenuousSpider
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Jan 1 2018, 01:00 AM
Post #50
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- Saiyan36
- Dec 31 2017, 11:59 PM
- StrenuousSpider
- Dec 31 2017, 11:32 PM
- Saiyan36
- Dec 31 2017, 12:12 PM
- StrenuousSpider
- Dec 31 2017, 02:00 AM
- Saiyan36
- Dec 30 2017, 12:46 PM
- Dagon
- Dec 30 2017, 03:21 AM
- SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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http://oi63.tinypic.com/2efpyrd.jpgWe already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza. The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.
For me it comes from power scaling the Goku Black arc, and making logical assumptions on what power gains could have occurred since. Goku Black Arc: Goku/Vegeta: SSJB: 1 Goku Black(1st battle in the future, when Vegeta gets stabbed by Rose Black): ~Base: 1 (did not really take any damage from Vegeta. This is a lowball for me.) ~SSJRose: 50(SSJRose is Goku Black's version of SSJ, so is probably a 50x boost) Vegeta(Rematch against Black, post RoSaT) ~SSJB: 100 (absolutely mauled SSJR Goku Black.) Now here's where it gets a bit interesting. Ok, Goku fought hit in a rematch. They fought to a draw. Both got more powerful since the U6 Arc. In the U6 arc, Goku used Blue Kaio-Ken x10 to break Hit's time skip dimension. In the rematch, regular Blue Goku broke Hit's time dimension, no Kaio-Ken used. That means Goku got at barest minimum 10x stronger. If Blue Goku was a 10, then his KKx10 would make him match Vegeta's 100 on my scale. KKx20 would make him twice as powerful as Vegeta. So Goku would still have the edge over Vegeta with the use of Kaio-Ken. But that's a lowball. We know Goku must be higher than a 10 because Hit was stronger than the last time, so he'd be stronger than U6 KKx10 Goku by a notable amount. Goku black actually got an amount stronger in between the first and second fights with Vegeta, and Blue Vegeta still wrecked him easily in their rematch. Vegeta would have had to get in the realm of 100x stronger to have that effect against Goku Black. Goku did get stronger from zenkais and at least one rage moment but he still has a huge gap to catch up to Vegeta before the Tournament of Power. This is at least how they stood back in the Goku Black arc. Whether or not Goku has caught up to Vegeta's level since then is unknown. Vegeta doesn't have any absolutely definitive, in no uncertain terms, direct power statements, just a few vague feats, in the ToP. We will find out for sure in the coming episodes when Vegeta fights at max power.
At the end of the arc. When Future Zamasu was arisen, Blue Goku showed his true power. "I ain't losing. Her's my full power!" And he pushed Zamasu's energy beam back, damaging Zamasu's body in the process. That was before he even used Kaioken. Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.
Yet goku was completely helpless against black. If goku was truly that strong without any kind of being desperate or anger why did he not crush black why did he let himself get his a*** kicked constantly even after several rage boost and finding out goten and chichi where killed. You would think the guy after coming to near death on several occasions with a futile fight would go full power no. Its as simple as merged zamasu holding back until vegito appeared.
If Vegeta was indeed dozens of times stronger: why didn't he stand the longest against Merged Zamasu before Vegito became obliged, while Goku was hanging in the ropes? The fact Merged Zamasu didn't use full power isn't enough proof in my opinion. They were both subjected to the same attacks and yet Goku stood till the end and Vegeta did not. Goku and Vegeta were both pretty much owning Black with their rage in Blue before he started his Ki-manipulation game.
Right so i guess black is nearing merged zamasu level if goku cant even scratch him yet can scratch zamasu. But i guess that means goku is nearing vegito as well. It is also funny how goku needed kaioken to even break zamasus grip yet he can do even more without kaioken. The fact he at one point needed kaioken. Was useless against black even after seeing vegeta nearly killed, goten and chichi being killed. Vegeta outright trashing the strongest version of black which the weakest version of black trashed goku. The events that happened prior prove that zamasu was not going all out against them. Like ive said a few times already that feat if it was even 10% would put goku in the realm of vegito blue. And in that case x20 would equal vegito blue which is just absurd.
I've only stated the facts. From the fights Goku vs Black and Vegeta vs Black we can get an indication, but it still is an interpretation, because they weren't really fighting side-by-side. Against Merged Zamasu they were. So that gives a more objective reproduction of their true Blue power. I also never stated anything about Full Blue Goku's power in relationship with Merged Zamasu's or Blue Vegetto's true power. I could imagine Merged Zamasu, arrogant as he is, would have thought a very small portion of his power would be enough and somehow underestimated Goku at that beam struggle. If Goku would have been stronger, you think the storytellers would have hung it beneath our noses from the beginning of the arc? It would have given Goku's surprise full monty act at the end completely away. I said zamasu was holding back you said there is no evidence for that which implies he was 100% but now you are saying he was not 100%.
It absolutely means nothing that goku vs black and vegeta vs black where not side by side. When gokus fight was completely one sided in blacks favor and again this was the weakest black and vegeta vs black was one sided in vegetas favor and this was the strongest black.
Like i said if goku was even 10% zamasu he should have crushed black but he could do nothing to a black that was not even serious on several occasions not just once but several times black beat him to near death and needed saving. So to assume he was not going 100% is ridiculous especially in his rage moments which take you beyond your max power and he still got crushed after black powered up after a few hits and goku goes back to his previous level before rageing out. Nothing what so ever puts him above vegeta or anywhere near him or even black.
Again if goku was say 5% zamasu there x20 that puts him equal to vegito blue which is not the case at all. As he needed kaioken to break zamasus grip just a simple hand to ankle grip that gokus full power was unable to break out of hence him going kaioken.
So him needing kaioken to break a grip but not for a ki blast proves that zamasu was holding back greatly and dose not prove that he is anywhere near vegeta or black.
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Saiyan36
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Jan 1 2018, 07:20 AM
Post #51
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- StrenuousSpider
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- StrenuousSpider
- Dec 31 2017, 11:32 PM
- Saiyan36
- Dec 31 2017, 12:12 PM
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- Saiyan36
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- Dec 30 2017, 03:21 AM
- SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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http://oi63.tinypic.com/2efpyrd.jpgWe already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza. The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.
For me it comes from power scaling the Goku Black arc, and making logical assumptions on what power gains could have occurred since. Goku Black Arc: Goku/Vegeta: SSJB: 1 Goku Black(1st battle in the future, when Vegeta gets stabbed by Rose Black): ~Base: 1 (did not really take any damage from Vegeta. This is a lowball for me.) ~SSJRose: 50(SSJRose is Goku Black's version of SSJ, so is probably a 50x boost) Vegeta(Rematch against Black, post RoSaT) ~SSJB: 100 (absolutely mauled SSJR Goku Black.) Now here's where it gets a bit interesting. Ok, Goku fought hit in a rematch. They fought to a draw. Both got more powerful since the U6 Arc. In the U6 arc, Goku used Blue Kaio-Ken x10 to break Hit's time skip dimension. In the rematch, regular Blue Goku broke Hit's time dimension, no Kaio-Ken used. That means Goku got at barest minimum 10x stronger. If Blue Goku was a 10, then his KKx10 would make him match Vegeta's 100 on my scale. KKx20 would make him twice as powerful as Vegeta. So Goku would still have the edge over Vegeta with the use of Kaio-Ken. But that's a lowball. We know Goku must be higher than a 10 because Hit was stronger than the last time, so he'd be stronger than U6 KKx10 Goku by a notable amount. Goku black actually got an amount stronger in between the first and second fights with Vegeta, and Blue Vegeta still wrecked him easily in their rematch. Vegeta would have had to get in the realm of 100x stronger to have that effect against Goku Black. Goku did get stronger from zenkais and at least one rage moment but he still has a huge gap to catch up to Vegeta before the Tournament of Power. This is at least how they stood back in the Goku Black arc. Whether or not Goku has caught up to Vegeta's level since then is unknown. Vegeta doesn't have any absolutely definitive, in no uncertain terms, direct power statements, just a few vague feats, in the ToP. We will find out for sure in the coming episodes when Vegeta fights at max power.
At the end of the arc. When Future Zamasu was arisen, Blue Goku showed his true power. "I ain't losing. Her's my full power!" And he pushed Zamasu's energy beam back, damaging Zamasu's body in the process. That was before he even used Kaioken. Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.
Yet goku was completely helpless against black. If goku was truly that strong without any kind of being desperate or anger why did he not crush black why did he let himself get his a*** kicked constantly even after several rage boost and finding out goten and chichi where killed. You would think the guy after coming to near death on several occasions with a futile fight would go full power no. Its as simple as merged zamasu holding back until vegito appeared.
If Vegeta was indeed dozens of times stronger: why didn't he stand the longest against Merged Zamasu before Vegito became obliged, while Goku was hanging in the ropes? The fact Merged Zamasu didn't use full power isn't enough proof in my opinion. They were both subjected to the same attacks and yet Goku stood till the end and Vegeta did not. Goku and Vegeta were both pretty much owning Black with their rage in Blue before he started his Ki-manipulation game.
Right so i guess black is nearing merged zamasu level if goku cant even scratch him yet can scratch zamasu. But i guess that means goku is nearing vegito as well. It is also funny how goku needed kaioken to even break zamasus grip yet he can do even more without kaioken. The fact he at one point needed kaioken. Was useless against black even after seeing vegeta nearly killed, goten and chichi being killed. Vegeta outright trashing the strongest version of black which the weakest version of black trashed goku. The events that happened prior prove that zamasu was not going all out against them. Like ive said a few times already that feat if it was even 10% would put goku in the realm of vegito blue. And in that case x20 would equal vegito blue which is just absurd.
I've only stated the facts. From the fights Goku vs Black and Vegeta vs Black we can get an indication, but it still is an interpretation, because they weren't really fighting side-by-side. Against Merged Zamasu they were. So that gives a more objective reproduction of their true Blue power. I also never stated anything about Full Blue Goku's power in relationship with Merged Zamasu's or Blue Vegetto's true power. I could imagine Merged Zamasu, arrogant as he is, would have thought a very small portion of his power would be enough and somehow underestimated Goku at that beam struggle. If Goku would have been stronger, you think the storytellers would have hung it beneath our noses from the beginning of the arc? It would have given Goku's surprise full monty act at the end completely away.
I said zamasu was holding back you said there is no evidence for that which implies he was 100% but now you are saying he was not 100%. It absolutely means nothing that goku vs black and vegeta vs black where not side by side. When gokus fight was completely one sided in blacks favor and again this was the weakest black and vegeta vs black was one sided in vegetas favor and this was the strongest black. Like i said if goku was even 10% zamasu he should have crushed black but he could do nothing to a black that was not even serious on several occasions not just once but several times black beat him to near death and needed saving. So to assume he was not going 100% is ridiculous especially in his rage moments which take you beyond your max power and he still got crushed after black powered up after a few hits and goku goes back to his previous level before rageing out. Nothing what so ever puts him above vegeta or anywhere near him or even black. Again if goku was say 5% zamasu there x20 that puts him equal to vegito blue which is not the case at all. As he needed kaioken to break zamasus grip just a simple hand to ankle grip that gokus full power was unable to break out of hence him going kaioken. So him needing kaioken to break a grip but not for a ki blast proves that zamasu was holding back greatly and dose not prove that he is anywhere near vegeta or black. "Now i know you stay in your own little world where your selective mind dose not see the whole story." -> This you've stated against a fellow member in the beginning of this thread.
And now you are stating:
-> "So to assume he was not going 100% is ridiculous."
This is no coincidence i presume. You don't want people to have another opinion than your own and if you don't make it with rational arguments, your behaviour reminds me of a crybaby.
You only want your own headcanon and fiction confirmed above facts.
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StrenuousSpider
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Jan 1 2018, 10:03 AM
Post #52
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http://oi63.tinypic.com/2efpyrd.jpgWe already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza. The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.
For me it comes from power scaling the Goku Black arc, and making logical assumptions on what power gains could have occurred since. Goku Black Arc: Goku/Vegeta: SSJB: 1 Goku Black(1st battle in the future, when Vegeta gets stabbed by Rose Black): ~Base: 1 (did not really take any damage from Vegeta. This is a lowball for me.) ~SSJRose: 50(SSJRose is Goku Black's version of SSJ, so is probably a 50x boost) Vegeta(Rematch against Black, post RoSaT) ~SSJB: 100 (absolutely mauled SSJR Goku Black.) Now here's where it gets a bit interesting. Ok, Goku fought hit in a rematch. They fought to a draw. Both got more powerful since the U6 Arc. In the U6 arc, Goku used Blue Kaio-Ken x10 to break Hit's time skip dimension. In the rematch, regular Blue Goku broke Hit's time dimension, no Kaio-Ken used. That means Goku got at barest minimum 10x stronger. If Blue Goku was a 10, then his KKx10 would make him match Vegeta's 100 on my scale. KKx20 would make him twice as powerful as Vegeta. So Goku would still have the edge over Vegeta with the use of Kaio-Ken. But that's a lowball. We know Goku must be higher than a 10 because Hit was stronger than the last time, so he'd be stronger than U6 KKx10 Goku by a notable amount. Goku black actually got an amount stronger in between the first and second fights with Vegeta, and Blue Vegeta still wrecked him easily in their rematch. Vegeta would have had to get in the realm of 100x stronger to have that effect against Goku Black. Goku did get stronger from zenkais and at least one rage moment but he still has a huge gap to catch up to Vegeta before the Tournament of Power. This is at least how they stood back in the Goku Black arc. Whether or not Goku has caught up to Vegeta's level since then is unknown. Vegeta doesn't have any absolutely definitive, in no uncertain terms, direct power statements, just a few vague feats, in the ToP. We will find out for sure in the coming episodes when Vegeta fights at max power.
At the end of the arc. When Future Zamasu was arisen, Blue Goku showed his true power. "I ain't losing. Her's my full power!" And he pushed Zamasu's energy beam back, damaging Zamasu's body in the process. That was before he even used Kaioken. Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.
Yet goku was completely helpless against black. If goku was truly that strong without any kind of being desperate or anger why did he not crush black why did he let himself get his a*** kicked constantly even after several rage boost and finding out goten and chichi where killed. You would think the guy after coming to near death on several occasions with a futile fight would go full power no. Its as simple as merged zamasu holding back until vegito appeared.
If Vegeta was indeed dozens of times stronger: why didn't he stand the longest against Merged Zamasu before Vegito became obliged, while Goku was hanging in the ropes? The fact Merged Zamasu didn't use full power isn't enough proof in my opinion. They were both subjected to the same attacks and yet Goku stood till the end and Vegeta did not. Goku and Vegeta were both pretty much owning Black with their rage in Blue before he started his Ki-manipulation game.
Right so i guess black is nearing merged zamasu level if goku cant even scratch him yet can scratch zamasu. But i guess that means goku is nearing vegito as well. It is also funny how goku needed kaioken to even break zamasus grip yet he can do even more without kaioken. The fact he at one point needed kaioken. Was useless against black even after seeing vegeta nearly killed, goten and chichi being killed. Vegeta outright trashing the strongest version of black which the weakest version of black trashed goku. The events that happened prior prove that zamasu was not going all out against them. Like ive said a few times already that feat if it was even 10% would put goku in the realm of vegito blue. And in that case x20 would equal vegito blue which is just absurd.
I've only stated the facts. From the fights Goku vs Black and Vegeta vs Black we can get an indication, but it still is an interpretation, because they weren't really fighting side-by-side. Against Merged Zamasu they were. So that gives a more objective reproduction of their true Blue power. I also never stated anything about Full Blue Goku's power in relationship with Merged Zamasu's or Blue Vegetto's true power. I could imagine Merged Zamasu, arrogant as he is, would have thought a very small portion of his power would be enough and somehow underestimated Goku at that beam struggle. If Goku would have been stronger, you think the storytellers would have hung it beneath our noses from the beginning of the arc? It would have given Goku's surprise full monty act at the end completely away.
I said zamasu was holding back you said there is no evidence for that which implies he was 100% but now you are saying he was not 100%. It absolutely means nothing that goku vs black and vegeta vs black where not side by side. When gokus fight was completely one sided in blacks favor and again this was the weakest black and vegeta vs black was one sided in vegetas favor and this was the strongest black. Like i said if goku was even 10% zamasu he should have crushed black but he could do nothing to a black that was not even serious on several occasions not just once but several times black beat him to near death and needed saving. So to assume he was not going 100% is ridiculous especially in his rage moments which take you beyond your max power and he still got crushed after black powered up after a few hits and goku goes back to his previous level before rageing out. Nothing what so ever puts him above vegeta or anywhere near him or even black. Again if goku was say 5% zamasu there x20 that puts him equal to vegito blue which is not the case at all. As he needed kaioken to break zamasus grip just a simple hand to ankle grip that gokus full power was unable to break out of hence him going kaioken. So him needing kaioken to break a grip but not for a ki blast proves that zamasu was holding back greatly and dose not prove that he is anywhere near vegeta or black.
"Now i know you stay in your own little world where your selective mind dose not see the whole story." -> This you've stated against a fellow member in the beginning of this thread. And now you are stating: -> "So to assume he was not going 100% is ridiculous." This is no coincidence i presume. You don't want people to have another opinion than your own and if you don't make it with rational arguments, your behaviour reminds me of a crybaby. You only want your own headcanon and fiction confirmed above facts. Everyone knows his reputation and how vary little of what he says ever makes any sense and the constant contractions made. Its one thing to change your mind on a subject but to believe two things and in one you contradict another and even in the conversation you so thankfully mentioned he did that while trying to prove his point. Which makes my point valid.
As for you i expected more never thought of you as someone to prove themselves wrong by attacking instead of defending there view point. I find it humorous that you want to attack me by saying i dont let anyone have opposing view points when in actuality most view points i had since being a member here have changed drastically but you know i dont change. While ive brought evidence after evidence of why vegeta was stronger and why goku is way below even black you stick to this one piece of evidence that says otherwise on face value but everyone knows its not much of a feat to go off of and say that vegeta is weaker. Because you cant prove how much power zamasu was using you cant prove with one weak vague feat that goku is above vegeta. Show me actual strong evidence and ill consider changing my mind that black arc goku is far superior black arc vegeta. But as it stands you have weak evidence and it accounts for nothing but showing how arrogant zamasu was.
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Saiyan36
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Jan 1 2018, 11:30 AM
Post #53
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- StrenuousSpider
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http://oi63.tinypic.com/2efpyrd.jpgWe already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza. The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.
For me it comes from power scaling the Goku Black arc, and making logical assumptions on what power gains could have occurred since. Goku Black Arc: Goku/Vegeta: SSJB: 1 Goku Black(1st battle in the future, when Vegeta gets stabbed by Rose Black): ~Base: 1 (did not really take any damage from Vegeta. This is a lowball for me.) ~SSJRose: 50(SSJRose is Goku Black's version of SSJ, so is probably a 50x boost) Vegeta(Rematch against Black, post RoSaT) ~SSJB: 100 (absolutely mauled SSJR Goku Black.) Now here's where it gets a bit interesting. Ok, Goku fought hit in a rematch. They fought to a draw. Both got more powerful since the U6 Arc. In the U6 arc, Goku used Blue Kaio-Ken x10 to break Hit's time skip dimension. In the rematch, regular Blue Goku broke Hit's time dimension, no Kaio-Ken used. That means Goku got at barest minimum 10x stronger. If Blue Goku was a 10, then his KKx10 would make him match Vegeta's 100 on my scale. KKx20 would make him twice as powerful as Vegeta. So Goku would still have the edge over Vegeta with the use of Kaio-Ken. But that's a lowball. We know Goku must be higher than a 10 because Hit was stronger than the last time, so he'd be stronger than U6 KKx10 Goku by a notable amount. Goku black actually got an amount stronger in between the first and second fights with Vegeta, and Blue Vegeta still wrecked him easily in their rematch. Vegeta would have had to get in the realm of 100x stronger to have that effect against Goku Black. Goku did get stronger from zenkais and at least one rage moment but he still has a huge gap to catch up to Vegeta before the Tournament of Power. This is at least how they stood back in the Goku Black arc. Whether or not Goku has caught up to Vegeta's level since then is unknown. Vegeta doesn't have any absolutely definitive, in no uncertain terms, direct power statements, just a few vague feats, in the ToP. We will find out for sure in the coming episodes when Vegeta fights at max power.
At the end of the arc. When Future Zamasu was arisen, Blue Goku showed his true power. "I ain't losing. Her's my full power!" And he pushed Zamasu's energy beam back, damaging Zamasu's body in the process. That was before he even used Kaioken. Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.
Yet goku was completely helpless against black. If goku was truly that strong without any kind of being desperate or anger why did he not crush black why did he let himself get his a*** kicked constantly even after several rage boost and finding out goten and chichi where killed. You would think the guy after coming to near death on several occasions with a futile fight would go full power no. Its as simple as merged zamasu holding back until vegito appeared.
If Vegeta was indeed dozens of times stronger: why didn't he stand the longest against Merged Zamasu before Vegito became obliged, while Goku was hanging in the ropes? The fact Merged Zamasu didn't use full power isn't enough proof in my opinion. They were both subjected to the same attacks and yet Goku stood till the end and Vegeta did not. Goku and Vegeta were both pretty much owning Black with their rage in Blue before he started his Ki-manipulation game.
Right so i guess black is nearing merged zamasu level if goku cant even scratch him yet can scratch zamasu. But i guess that means goku is nearing vegito as well. It is also funny how goku needed kaioken to even break zamasus grip yet he can do even more without kaioken. The fact he at one point needed kaioken. Was useless against black even after seeing vegeta nearly killed, goten and chichi being killed. Vegeta outright trashing the strongest version of black which the weakest version of black trashed goku. The events that happened prior prove that zamasu was not going all out against them. Like ive said a few times already that feat if it was even 10% would put goku in the realm of vegito blue. And in that case x20 would equal vegito blue which is just absurd.
I've only stated the facts. From the fights Goku vs Black and Vegeta vs Black we can get an indication, but it still is an interpretation, because they weren't really fighting side-by-side. Against Merged Zamasu they were. So that gives a more objective reproduction of their true Blue power. I also never stated anything about Full Blue Goku's power in relationship with Merged Zamasu's or Blue Vegetto's true power. I could imagine Merged Zamasu, arrogant as he is, would have thought a very small portion of his power would be enough and somehow underestimated Goku at that beam struggle. If Goku would have been stronger, you think the storytellers would have hung it beneath our noses from the beginning of the arc? It would have given Goku's surprise full monty act at the end completely away.
I said zamasu was holding back you said there is no evidence for that which implies he was 100% but now you are saying he was not 100%. It absolutely means nothing that goku vs black and vegeta vs black where not side by side. When gokus fight was completely one sided in blacks favor and again this was the weakest black and vegeta vs black was one sided in vegetas favor and this was the strongest black. Like i said if goku was even 10% zamasu he should have crushed black but he could do nothing to a black that was not even serious on several occasions not just once but several times black beat him to near death and needed saving. So to assume he was not going 100% is ridiculous especially in his rage moments which take you beyond your max power and he still got crushed after black powered up after a few hits and goku goes back to his previous level before rageing out. Nothing what so ever puts him above vegeta or anywhere near him or even black. Again if goku was say 5% zamasu there x20 that puts him equal to vegito blue which is not the case at all. As he needed kaioken to break zamasus grip just a simple hand to ankle grip that gokus full power was unable to break out of hence him going kaioken. So him needing kaioken to break a grip but not for a ki blast proves that zamasu was holding back greatly and dose not prove that he is anywhere near vegeta or black.
"Now i know you stay in your own little world where your selective mind dose not see the whole story." -> This you've stated against a fellow member in the beginning of this thread. And now you are stating: -> "So to assume he was not going 100% is ridiculous." This is no coincidence i presume. You don't want people to have another opinion than your own and if you don't make it with rational arguments, your behaviour reminds me of a crybaby. You only want your own headcanon and fiction confirmed above facts.
Everyone knows his reputation and how vary little of what he says ever makes any sense and the constant contractions made. Its one thing to change your mind on a subject but to believe two things and in one you contradict another and even in the conversation you so thankfully mentioned he did that while trying to prove his point. Which makes my point valid. As for you i expected more never thought of you as someone to prove themselves wrong by attacking instead of defending there view point. I find it humorous that you want to attack me by saying i dont let anyone have opposing view points when in actuality most view points i had since being a member here have changed drastically but you know i dont change. While ive brought evidence after evidence of why vegeta was stronger and why goku is way below even black you stick to this one piece of evidence that says otherwise on face value but everyone knows its not much of a feat to go off of and say that vegeta is weaker. Because you cant prove how much power zamasu was using you cant prove with one weak vague feat that goku is above vegeta. Show me actual strong evidence and ill consider changing my mind that black arc goku is far superior black arc vegeta. But as it stands you have weak evidence and it accounts for nothing but showing how arrogant zamasu was. Now you accuse me of attacking. It's not about the content for me anymore. It's how you go along with fellow fans.
I never attacked you before, i only defended my point. And i respected you for having another opinion too.
Then you bring up what i am saying is completely ridiculous. Then you are playing the man, you are no longer proving your point and you go personal. You've done the same in the past several times.
You attacked, i defended.
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StrenuousSpider
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Jan 1 2018, 01:37 PM
Post #54
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- Saiyan36
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At the end of the arc. When Future Zamasu was arisen, Blue Goku showed his true power. "I ain't losing. Her's my full power!" And he pushed Zamasu's energy beam back, damaging Zamasu's body in the process. That was before he even used Kaioken. Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.
Yet goku was completely helpless against black. If goku was truly that strong without any kind of being desperate or anger why did he not crush black why did he let himself get his a*** kicked constantly even after several rage boost and finding out goten and chichi where killed. You would think the guy after coming to near death on several occasions with a futile fight would go full power no. Its as simple as merged zamasu holding back until vegito appeared.
If Vegeta was indeed dozens of times stronger: why didn't he stand the longest against Merged Zamasu before Vegito became obliged, while Goku was hanging in the ropes? The fact Merged Zamasu didn't use full power isn't enough proof in my opinion. They were both subjected to the same attacks and yet Goku stood till the end and Vegeta did not. Goku and Vegeta were both pretty much owning Black with their rage in Blue before he started his Ki-manipulation game.
Right so i guess black is nearing merged zamasu level if goku cant even scratch him yet can scratch zamasu. But i guess that means goku is nearing vegito as well. It is also funny how goku needed kaioken to even break zamasus grip yet he can do even more without kaioken. The fact he at one point needed kaioken. Was useless against black even after seeing vegeta nearly killed, goten and chichi being killed. Vegeta outright trashing the strongest version of black which the weakest version of black trashed goku. The events that happened prior prove that zamasu was not going all out against them. Like ive said a few times already that feat if it was even 10% would put goku in the realm of vegito blue. And in that case x20 would equal vegito blue which is just absurd.
I've only stated the facts. From the fights Goku vs Black and Vegeta vs Black we can get an indication, but it still is an interpretation, because they weren't really fighting side-by-side. Against Merged Zamasu they were. So that gives a more objective reproduction of their true Blue power. I also never stated anything about Full Blue Goku's power in relationship with Merged Zamasu's or Blue Vegetto's true power. I could imagine Merged Zamasu, arrogant as he is, would have thought a very small portion of his power would be enough and somehow underestimated Goku at that beam struggle. If Goku would have been stronger, you think the storytellers would have hung it beneath our noses from the beginning of the arc? It would have given Goku's surprise full monty act at the end completely away.
I said zamasu was holding back you said there is no evidence for that which implies he was 100% but now you are saying he was not 100%. It absolutely means nothing that goku vs black and vegeta vs black where not side by side. When gokus fight was completely one sided in blacks favor and again this was the weakest black and vegeta vs black was one sided in vegetas favor and this was the strongest black. Like i said if goku was even 10% zamasu he should have crushed black but he could do nothing to a black that was not even serious on several occasions not just once but several times black beat him to near death and needed saving. So to assume he was not going 100% is ridiculous especially in his rage moments which take you beyond your max power and he still got crushed after black powered up after a few hits and goku goes back to his previous level before rageing out. Nothing what so ever puts him above vegeta or anywhere near him or even black. Again if goku was say 5% zamasu there x20 that puts him equal to vegito blue which is not the case at all. As he needed kaioken to break zamasus grip just a simple hand to ankle grip that gokus full power was unable to break out of hence him going kaioken. So him needing kaioken to break a grip but not for a ki blast proves that zamasu was holding back greatly and dose not prove that he is anywhere near vegeta or black.
"Now i know you stay in your own little world where your selective mind dose not see the whole story." -> This you've stated against a fellow member in the beginning of this thread. And now you are stating: -> "So to assume he was not going 100% is ridiculous." This is no coincidence i presume. You don't want people to have another opinion than your own and if you don't make it with rational arguments, your behaviour reminds me of a crybaby. You only want your own headcanon and fiction confirmed above facts.
Everyone knows his reputation and how vary little of what he says ever makes any sense and the constant contractions made. Its one thing to change your mind on a subject but to believe two things and in one you contradict another and even in the conversation you so thankfully mentioned he did that while trying to prove his point. Which makes my point valid. As for you i expected more never thought of you as someone to prove themselves wrong by attacking instead of defending there view point. I find it humorous that you want to attack me by saying i dont let anyone have opposing view points when in actuality most view points i had since being a member here have changed drastically but you know i dont change. While ive brought evidence after evidence of why vegeta was stronger and why goku is way below even black you stick to this one piece of evidence that says otherwise on face value but everyone knows its not much of a feat to go off of and say that vegeta is weaker. Because you cant prove how much power zamasu was using you cant prove with one weak vague feat that goku is above vegeta. Show me actual strong evidence and ill consider changing my mind that black arc goku is far superior black arc vegeta. But as it stands you have weak evidence and it accounts for nothing but showing how arrogant zamasu was.
Now you accuse me of attacking. It's not about the content for me anymore. It's how you go along with fellow fans. I never attacked you before, i only defended my point. And i respected you for having another opinion too. Then you bring up what i am saying is completely ridiculous. Then you are playing the man, you are no longer proving your point and you go personal. You've done the same in the past several times. You attacked, i defended. If you take me attacking your argument as me attacking you personally then go ahead.
And i assume since you think that attacking a argument is a personal attack then i guess ive gotten personal with alot of people. The only true times ive gotten personal with someone that guy is not even on the forum no more for his constant attacking. But ive been suspended once for attacking said guy but never have i had a warning or anything else from mods besides that one time so id say im doing something right. Besides that ive only gotten ugly with two others gogeta and notaka long ago from a misunderstanding which was resolved shortly after. But to you i guess i look like a monster for attacking someones argument.
So if you have a problem with attacking an argument i dont see why you even debate. Ive had many ideas called ridiculous on this forum but i dont take it personally. And i dont get what you mean by playing the man lol. But again i never went personal. If i had i would have called you yourself ridiculous not your argument or the idea of it.
So for whatever reason made you not care about the content of this thread if that be me calling your argument ridiculous or something else this should not be the place for this. So im going to try and put this train back on the rails.
Do you or do you not have any other evidence that is concrete for Black arc goku > black arc vegeta. Besides some feat that is nothing more but showing how much zamasu underestimated goku and let his arrogance get in the way of killing them. If not it is completely ridiculous argument to make with such weak evidence.
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Sam
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Jan 2 2018, 02:04 AM
Post #55
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It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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I've addressed you both via PM and I expect this conversation to stay away from getting personal. It's child's television in the end; let's act like adults here, no matter what we may think of some of the other debaters.
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WoW Legion Ending - Thank you Darker for making this into one, big incredible gif! <3 Brother! Your crusade IS OVER!!
 NO...!!
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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Jan 2 2018, 02:57 AM
Post #56
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All this back and forth for no reason and not one argument was presented that made sense. Regardless the vegeta>>goku standpoint was already shown to be drivel.
Toei stated themselves that Goku was the strongest and Goku already matched vegeta in power. If you want to keep believing that vegeta is hundreds of times stronger than Goku, you do you. It's still unsubstantiated no matter how many times people say it.
That's basically what it boils down to. Toei and the material shows them as equals in the same form, they haven't shown otherwise. So that's basically the correct conclusion.
Then again, someone is just gonna claim that vegeta is stronger than goku because he went in the rosat twice, but there's no reasoning with these people, so it's whatever.
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Spoiler: click to toggle Spoiler: click to toggle Spoiler: click to toggle Spoiler: click to toggle
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StrenuousSpider
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Jan 2 2018, 03:08 AM
Post #57
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- SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
- Jan 2 2018, 02:57 AM
All this back and forth for no reason and not one argument was presented that made sense. Regardless the vegeta>>goku standpoint was already shown to be drivel.
Toei stated themselves that Goku was the strongest and Goku already matched vegeta in power. If you want to keep believing that vegeta is hundreds of times stronger than Goku, you do you. It's still unsubstantiated no matter how many times people say it.
That's basically what it boils down to. Toei and the material shows them as equals in the same form, they haven't shown otherwise. So that's basically the correct conclusion.
Then again, someone is just gonna claim that vegeta is stronger than goku because he went in the rosat twice, but there's no reasoning with these people, so it's whatever. Im vary well aware of how toei sees things especially the movies lol. But im also aware of how they have portrayed things in black arc. Ive argued evidence wise why vegeta is stronger or equal. But ive never said that i believe it ive even stated multiple times that toei has them equals. But ill say this last thing toei said this but the material says another when it comes down to things its just toei inconsistency and the goku spotlight stuff going on.they have been doing this from filler to movies to gt to now super.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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Jan 2 2018, 03:37 AM
Post #58
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Except you haven't posted evidence and there in lies the problem.
You ignored the baseball match that showed the 2 as equals and said it doesn't count because it made Yamaha god level or something. Not only is that not true, it's a non sequitur since Yamaha has nothing to do with goku or vegeta.
Then you ignored toeis statement saying that it's "inconsistent with the show". Yet again you can't explain yourself and your only justification is that vegeta went into the rosat twice. I don't think you even understand what a contradiction is. Nothing short of vegeta being stated as gokus superior, beating or being equal to someone that goku can't beat or him beating goku in a fight would logically fall under that category.
If your only "evidence" for vegeta being stronger than goku is him going into the rosat twice, then you haven't proven a thing. That isn't the show "suggesting vegetas superiority". You ignored two blatant instances that with no doubt prove that vegeta isn't stronger. One from the show and the other from toei, yet your only rebuttal is something that doesn't even come close to cutting it as evidence.
So I fail to see what you were saying, because it definitely made no sense at all. You didn't have an argument, not one that should've been considered or entertained anyway.
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StrenuousSpider
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Jan 2 2018, 03:43 AM
Post #59
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- SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
- Jan 2 2018, 03:37 AM
Except you haven't posted evidence and there in lies the problem.
You ignored the baseball match that showed the 2 as equals and said it doesn't count because it made Yamaha god level or something. Not only is that not true, it's a non sequitur since Yamaha has nothing to do with goku or vegeta.
Then you ignored toeis statement saying that it's "inconsistent with the show". Yet again you can't explain yourself and your only justification is that vegeta went into the rosat twice. I don't think you even understand what a contradiction is. Nothing short of vegeta being stated as goku superior, beating or being equal to someone that goku can't beat or him beating goku in a fight would logically fall under that category.
If your only "evidence" for vegeta being stronger than goku is him going into the rosat twice, then you haven't proven a thing. That isn't the show "suggesting vegetas superiority". You ignored two blatant instances that with no doubt prove that vegeta isn't stronger. One from the show and the other from toei, yet your only rebuttal is something that doesn't even come close to cutting it as evidence.
So I fail to see what you were saying, because it definitely made no sense at all. You didn't have an argument, not one that should've been considered or entertained anyway. i honestly thought we moved past this and were talking about toei themselves but ok.
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superperfectnerd
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Jan 2 2018, 03:46 AM
Post #60
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What's the point of the latest episode preview then? The preview is a marketing tool meant to hype up the next episode, what do you think the audience is suppose to think of those preview shots of Jiren taking a hit from Vegeta and looking shocked and raising his arms to block the Final Flash? Obviously it's supposed to make audiences think "even Goku couldn't do that!"
So as of right now that would be the latest evidence for the argument. Feats from the preview.
What Toei says doesn't matter than much anyway since we have different writers interpretations of a basic outline of what Toriyama wants to show in the story. Saying Goku is the strongest in universe 7 at the start of an arc is just a soundbite. It's Dragon ball, he's the main character but the scale can shange now that the arc has started as every single saiyan character in the tournament has gotten stronger as they've fought in it, all except for Vegeta (so far).
Goku got UI Gohan unlocked more of his potential Cabba and Caulifla got ssj2 Kale mastered her beserker form
The power of these saiyans going into the tournament is irrelevant now as they've all changed since it started. The preview seems to be hinting at ssjb Vegeta being stronger than ssjb Goku was before he got UI. That's all we can judge right now.
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