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is currennt ssjb goku on par with ssjb vegeta again
Topic Started: Dec 27 2017, 11:24 PM (15,825 Views)
superperfectnerd
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Haha are you kidding me? Jiren went from not budging, to blocking with one finger to finally being 'pushed back' by blue Goku ut that was just the beginning of their fight and he wasn't really pushed, just went with Goku fighting all the way through some rocks. He was never sweating or grimacing or raising his arms to block. Then he stomped kaioken times 20 with his eyes. Ssjb Goku now could be a lot stronger than he was then though. I am missing context, it's just a preview after all, but do you honestly think Goku did anything like that kick in the preview Vegeta delivers in his first match with Jiren at regular blue level?

From the preview (and I stress, it's just a preview, so not concrete) it looks like ssjb Goku (before limit break) < ssjb Vegeta < ssjb Goku (post limit break)? Before the preview I had them as basically equal in ssjb along with Freeza but Goku is not equal to them is he? So the whole "they said Goku = Freeza" argument is pointless as Goku has kaioken and can become twenty fold stronger than Freeza.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 29 2017, 01:33 AM.
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StrenuousSpider
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Dec 28 2017, 11:27 PM
The baseball scene not counting is your opinion. An irrelevant one at that since its based on nothing but your wishful thinking.
If you're going off what's shown then that I don't see why that's discounted. It's more concrete than you assuming that vegetas stronger than Goku just because he went in the rosat which isn't stated anywhere. And Goku said that he or vegeta would beat Frieza before he found out that Frieza got stronger.

The source material holds precedence over a direct statement from people whom make said source material?

Not only does this not make sense due to the said material not even being logically separate from the person who wrote it, who even decided this? Or is this just something you hear being purported mindlessly and adopted it into your own mindset?

Complete and utter nonsense that isn't worth an iota of acknowledgement. No evidence that vegeta is stronger than Goku. "He went into the rosat" isn't evidence. No in story acknowledgement of such superiority by anyone nor is this demonstrated.

Goku is the strongest in U7 as stated by toei. Frieza is his stated equal. Therefore vegeta isn't stronger than either of them. It's as simple as 1+1=2.
Hahahahha. You cant talk about anyones opinion lol.

For fact we know vegeta went into the rosar we see him do so so just shut it about it not being stated anywhere when we all saw it. Gok has not trained since black arc i dont count his quick spar with whiss. So logic says he is the same as he was then which is inferior to vegeta and black. And again the baseball scean means nothing unless you really think yamcha has near universal level durability.

And yes the source material > statement from the people who wrote especially if it contradicts whats been shown and written already. A retcon like dragonball minus is one thing but a statement that has no proog means nothing. Like how toriyama said buu has existed since a certain time period. Yet his his own written material that is set in stone untill officially retcond said he is a creation of bibidi. So whats been written takes priority over whats just said to be said.

Vegeta was shown superior during black arc and he has not once been shown to have gotten stronger not once has he been shown to actually train to get stronger.
So what did vegeta just go into the rosat for months to a year to just sit around twirling his thumbs to he went in there to get stronger just like every other time the chamber was used. So yes he got stronger alot stronger.

So you want to use the logic that goku was thinking of past freiza ok then ill use similar logic. Goku was also thinking of old vegeta the one before the 2ed rosat training. Also this is before toei statement about goku being the strongest so we have to look into the material which straight up shows goku is the same level he was before same for vegeta which surprise vegeta is stronger because there is absolutely no statement at that time saying goku is the strongest that came later. Funny thing is i believe it was after the first UI arrived which obviously is stronger then vegeta. So right off the bat your little toei line dose not mean while in equal forms same as in buu saga goku was said to be stronger then vegeta not in equal forms but because he had something vegeta did not have ssj3 same here but its UI instead. Its also funny how you say there is no in story acknowledgement that vegeta is superior but neither is there for goku. Just actual fights showing vegetas superiority and actual sceans of no goku training but vegeta training. Logic and evidence says vegeta > goku. But ive even admitted on several occasion across several topics that toei probably still has them equals.

You talk about wishful thinking but nothing you say holds no merit. You use two pieces of evidence.
1. of which contradicts your vary own view point which i find extremely humorous and should bot be taken as evidence.
2. A statement from toei which contradicts near everything thats been shown and established when taken the way you do. But makes perfect sense when used the same way its been used in the past, wink wink buu saga ssj3 but being equal in same form yet said to be the superior.

Weak evidence as usual from you. The only time you should take a authors word is if it dose not contradict there own work and has evidence in the show to support it. And the only thing that supports goku > vegeta is goku having Kaioken and UI bothing else

But ill let you think what you want im done arguing with you. Its not the first time ive brought evidence which you say never happened then a few sentences later talk about that thing you said did not happen. Like you saying vegeta never was stated to have gone into the rosat then saying vegeta going into the rosat dose not mean hes stronger. Like really

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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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Vegetas kick did nothing to jiren nor is he pressuring him at all since the previews say he utterly failed without putting up a decent fight.

According to your own logic, Hit should be stronger than Goku as well since he hit jiren, which he obviously isn't.

But none of that really matters. We already have confirmation from toei. Toeis statement prevents disingenuous use of feats such as overhyping irrelevant instances or cherry picking. Ssb vegeta regardless of kicking jiren is as stated, not stronger than Ssb Goku.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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@strenuous spider

I never said that vegeta didn't go into the rosat or get stronger from going into the rosat. And you're not making sense as usual.

You're flat out saying things that didn't happen and I've already had to correct you on the correct order of events. Your justifications for throwing any and everything out the window which doesn't conform to your own beliefs is beyond lunacy.

And I'm seeing a lot of things in your post which go along the lines of "I personally don't count that", which includes the feat of Goku pushing back vegetas full power. Very convenient.
Yet at the same time you claim to be using the story in your assessments so I don't even know what you're saying at this point.

Garbage as usual. Nothing that needed addressing.
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StrenuousSpider
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Dec 29 2017, 02:08 AM
@strenuous spider

I never said that vegeta didn't go into the rosat or get stronger from going into the rosat. And you're not making sense as usual.

You're flat out saying things that didn't happen and I've already had to correct you on the correct order of events. Your justifications for throwing any and everything out the window which doesn't conform to your own beliefs is beyond lunacy.

And I'm seeing a lot of things in your post which go along the lines of "I personally don't count that", which includes the feat of Goku pushing back vegetas full power. Very convenient.
Yet at the same time you claim to be using the story in your assessments so I don't even know what you're saying at this point.

Garbage as usual. Nothing that needed addressing.
I gave you the reason why the baseball game is not a justifiable feat. It makes yamcha universal teir durability which is a joke.

Please address me to where i said i put my evidence in order of when they happened. Most of the time i just lay it out there in any order because it dose not matter what order.

You said there is no statement that he went into the rosat yet he did twice lol keep proving my point its glorious. Also tell what i said that did not happen. The only thing i throw out the window was the filler gag which makes yamcha way to strong but i guess you are ok with yamcha coming out less harmed then beerus and champa even after taking hits from blue characters right thats real solid evidence there bud.

One last thing i as well as others have are reasons and good ones to dismiss the one piece of evidence you have which contradicts your own view. But answer me this why is it across several apon several topics you dismiss every piece of evidence that people bring into the conversation so why is it ok for you to throw out evidence that is accepted by nearly everyone but not ok for us to dismiss evidence that only you believe to be credible. All yoy have done is contradict yourself with your own evidence, contradict yourself with your own words it quite humorous.
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superperfectnerd
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There's no need for anyone to be rude.

Goku was always stronger than Freeza, so that quote is meaningless to me.

You also have to take into account that one of the writers said "Gohan and 17 are equal in my opinion". He wrote the episode and yet it's only his opinion that Gohan and 17 are equal, not agreed upon fact by all writers. This isn't one person's vision, I don't think the writers are even sure where people are supposed to be power wise for certain. So neither is Toei. So that just makes that statement even more pointless.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 29 2017, 03:15 AM.
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Sam
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It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.

SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Dec 29 2017, 02:08 AM
@strenuous spider

I never said that vegeta didn't go into the rosat or get stronger from going into the rosat. And you're not making sense as usual.

You're flat out saying things that didn't happen and I've already had to correct you on the correct order of events. Your justifications for throwing any and everything out the window which doesn't conform to your own beliefs is beyond lunacy.

And I'm seeing a lot of things in your post which go along the lines of "I personally don't count that", which includes the feat of Goku pushing back vegetas full power. Very convenient.
Yet at the same time you claim to be using the story in your assessments so I don't even know what you're saying at this point.

Garbage as usual. Nothing that needed addressing.
Stop getting personal.

"And you're not making sense as usual. ... Garbage as usual. Nothing that needed addressing."

Post like this further and I will warn you. Simple as that.
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Dagon
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
 
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We already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza.

The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.


For me it comes from power scaling the Goku Black arc, and making logical assumptions on what power gains could have occurred since.

Goku Black Arc:

Goku/Vegeta:
SSJB: 1

Goku Black(1st battle in the future, when Vegeta gets stabbed by Rose Black):
~Base: 1 (did not really take any damage from Vegeta. This is a lowball for me.)
~SSJRose: 50(SSJRose is Goku Black's version of SSJ, so is probably a 50x boost)

Vegeta(Rematch against Black, post RoSaT)
~SSJB: 100 (absolutely mauled SSJR Goku Black.)

Now here's where it gets a bit interesting. Ok, Goku fought hit in a rematch. They fought to a draw. Both got more powerful since the U6 Arc.
In the U6 arc, Goku used Blue Kaio-Ken x10 to break Hit's time skip dimension.
In the rematch, regular Blue Goku broke Hit's time dimension, no Kaio-Ken used.
That means Goku got at barest minimum 10x stronger.

If Blue Goku was a 10, then his KKx10 would make him match Vegeta's 100 on my scale. KKx20 would make him twice as powerful as Vegeta. So Goku would still have the edge over Vegeta with the use of Kaio-Ken.
But that's a lowball. We know Goku must be higher than a 10 because Hit was stronger than the last time, so he'd be stronger than U6 KKx10 Goku by a notable amount.

Goku black actually got an amount stronger in between the first and second fights with Vegeta, and Blue Vegeta still wrecked him easily in their rematch. Vegeta would have had to get in the realm of 100x stronger to have that effect against Goku Black.
Goku did get stronger from zenkais and at least one rage moment but he still has a huge gap to catch up to Vegeta before the Tournament of Power.

This is at least how they stood back in the Goku Black arc. Whether or not Goku has caught up to Vegeta's level since then is unknown. Vegeta doesn't have any absolutely definitive, in no uncertain terms, direct power statements, just a few vague feats, in the ToP. We will find out for sure in the coming episodes when Vegeta fights at max power.
Edited by Dagon, Dec 30 2017, 03:37 AM.
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Saiyan36
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Dagon
Dec 30 2017, 03:21 AM
SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
 
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We already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza.

The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.


For me it comes from power scaling the Goku Black arc, and making logical assumptions on what power gains could have occurred since.

Goku Black Arc:

Goku/Vegeta:
SSJB: 1

Goku Black(1st battle in the future, when Vegeta gets stabbed by Rose Black):
~Base: 1 (did not really take any damage from Vegeta. This is a lowball for me.)
~SSJRose: 50(SSJRose is Goku Black's version of SSJ, so is probably a 50x boost)

Vegeta(Rematch against Black, post RoSaT)
~SSJB: 100 (absolutely mauled SSJR Goku Black.)

Now here's where it gets a bit interesting. Ok, Goku fought hit in a rematch. They fought to a draw. Both got more powerful since the U6 Arc.
In the U6 arc, Goku used Blue Kaio-Ken x10 to break Hit's time skip dimension.
In the rematch, regular Blue Goku broke Hit's time dimension, no Kaio-Ken used.
That means Goku got at barest minimum 10x stronger.

If Blue Goku was a 10, then his KKx10 would make him match Vegeta's 100 on my scale. KKx20 would make him twice as powerful as Vegeta. So Goku would still have the edge over Vegeta with the use of Kaio-Ken.
But that's a lowball. We know Goku must be higher than a 10 because Hit was stronger than the last time, so he'd be stronger than U6 KKx10 Goku by a notable amount.

Goku black actually got an amount stronger in between the first and second fights with Vegeta, and Blue Vegeta still wrecked him easily in their rematch. Vegeta would have had to get in the realm of 100x stronger to have that effect against Goku Black.
Goku did get stronger from zenkais and at least one rage moment but he still has a huge gap to catch up to Vegeta before the Tournament of Power.

This is at least how they stood back in the Goku Black arc. Whether or not Goku has caught up to Vegeta's level since then is unknown. Vegeta doesn't have any absolutely definitive, in no uncertain terms, direct power statements, just a few vague feats, in the ToP. We will find out for sure in the coming episodes when Vegeta fights at max power.
At the end of the arc. When Future Zamasu was arisen, Blue Goku showed his true power.

"I ain't losing. Her's my full power!"

And he pushed Zamasu's energy beam back, damaging Zamasu's body in the process. That was before he even used Kaioken.

Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.
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In the preview vegeta did better against jiren than first ui goku


For me ssjb vegeta is between kaioken 20 goku and first ui goku

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Saiyan36
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Pointer
Dec 30 2017, 05:43 PM
In the preview vegeta did better against jiren than first ui goku


For me ssjb vegeta is between kaioken 20 goku and first ui goku
Well if his power already comes close to rivaling the Spirit Bomb, he probably isn't going to get a tough time getting UI, is he?
He's almost there.

If not ... Assuming Vegeta has the ability to unlock UI and in orde to do so, he has to push past a certain point. If it wouldn't be the Spirit Bomb, theoretically: what would it be? Is Whis going to raise the bar for Vegeta to push through ... the equivalent of 30, 40 Spirit Bombs, because he has no Kaioken? Is Vegeta going to get a tailor made limit for his own? I just wonder what the bar would be in that case.
Edited by Saiyan36, Dec 30 2017, 09:32 PM.
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StrenuousSpider
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Saiyan36
Dec 30 2017, 12:46 PM
Dagon
Dec 30 2017, 03:21 AM
SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
 
http://oi63.tinypic.com/2efpyrd.jpg

We already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza.

The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.


For me it comes from power scaling the Goku Black arc, and making logical assumptions on what power gains could have occurred since.

Goku Black Arc:

Goku/Vegeta:
SSJB: 1

Goku Black(1st battle in the future, when Vegeta gets stabbed by Rose Black):
~Base: 1 (did not really take any damage from Vegeta. This is a lowball for me.)
~SSJRose: 50(SSJRose is Goku Black's version of SSJ, so is probably a 50x boost)

Vegeta(Rematch against Black, post RoSaT)
~SSJB: 100 (absolutely mauled SSJR Goku Black.)

Now here's where it gets a bit interesting. Ok, Goku fought hit in a rematch. They fought to a draw. Both got more powerful since the U6 Arc.
In the U6 arc, Goku used Blue Kaio-Ken x10 to break Hit's time skip dimension.
In the rematch, regular Blue Goku broke Hit's time dimension, no Kaio-Ken used.
That means Goku got at barest minimum 10x stronger.

If Blue Goku was a 10, then his KKx10 would make him match Vegeta's 100 on my scale. KKx20 would make him twice as powerful as Vegeta. So Goku would still have the edge over Vegeta with the use of Kaio-Ken.
But that's a lowball. We know Goku must be higher than a 10 because Hit was stronger than the last time, so he'd be stronger than U6 KKx10 Goku by a notable amount.

Goku black actually got an amount stronger in between the first and second fights with Vegeta, and Blue Vegeta still wrecked him easily in their rematch. Vegeta would have had to get in the realm of 100x stronger to have that effect against Goku Black.
Goku did get stronger from zenkais and at least one rage moment but he still has a huge gap to catch up to Vegeta before the Tournament of Power.

This is at least how they stood back in the Goku Black arc. Whether or not Goku has caught up to Vegeta's level since then is unknown. Vegeta doesn't have any absolutely definitive, in no uncertain terms, direct power statements, just a few vague feats, in the ToP. We will find out for sure in the coming episodes when Vegeta fights at max power.
At the end of the arc. When Future Zamasu was arisen, Blue Goku showed his true power.

"I ain't losing. Her's my full power!"

And he pushed Zamasu's energy beam back, damaging Zamasu's body in the process. That was before he even used Kaioken.

Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.
Yet goku was completely helpless against black. If goku was truly that strong without any kind of being desperate or anger why did he not crush black why did he let himself get his a*** kicked constantly even after several rage boost and finding out goten and chichi where killed. You would think the guy after coming to near death on several occasions with a futile fight would go full power no.

Its as simple as merged zamasu holding back until vegito appeared.
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Notaka
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I thought Vegeta had surpassed Goku for a fair bit since the Black Saga.

And the next episode shows that Vegeta is still ahead of Goku, he was able to hit Jiren whereas Goku needed UI to do this.
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StrenuousSpider
Dec 31 2017, 02:00 AM
Saiyan36
Dec 30 2017, 12:46 PM
Dagon
Dec 30 2017, 03:21 AM
SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
 
http://oi63.tinypic.com/2efpyrd.jpg

We already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza.

The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.


For me it comes from power scaling the Goku Black arc, and making logical assumptions on what power gains could have occurred since.

Goku Black Arc:

Goku/Vegeta:
SSJB: 1

Goku Black(1st battle in the future, when Vegeta gets stabbed by Rose Black):
~Base: 1 (did not really take any damage from Vegeta. This is a lowball for me.)
~SSJRose: 50(SSJRose is Goku Black's version of SSJ, so is probably a 50x boost)

Vegeta(Rematch against Black, post RoSaT)
~SSJB: 100 (absolutely mauled SSJR Goku Black.)

Now here's where it gets a bit interesting. Ok, Goku fought hit in a rematch. They fought to a draw. Both got more powerful since the U6 Arc.
In the U6 arc, Goku used Blue Kaio-Ken x10 to break Hit's time skip dimension.
In the rematch, regular Blue Goku broke Hit's time dimension, no Kaio-Ken used.
That means Goku got at barest minimum 10x stronger.

If Blue Goku was a 10, then his KKx10 would make him match Vegeta's 100 on my scale. KKx20 would make him twice as powerful as Vegeta. So Goku would still have the edge over Vegeta with the use of Kaio-Ken.
But that's a lowball. We know Goku must be higher than a 10 because Hit was stronger than the last time, so he'd be stronger than U6 KKx10 Goku by a notable amount.

Goku black actually got an amount stronger in between the first and second fights with Vegeta, and Blue Vegeta still wrecked him easily in their rematch. Vegeta would have had to get in the realm of 100x stronger to have that effect against Goku Black.
Goku did get stronger from zenkais and at least one rage moment but he still has a huge gap to catch up to Vegeta before the Tournament of Power.

This is at least how they stood back in the Goku Black arc. Whether or not Goku has caught up to Vegeta's level since then is unknown. Vegeta doesn't have any absolutely definitive, in no uncertain terms, direct power statements, just a few vague feats, in the ToP. We will find out for sure in the coming episodes when Vegeta fights at max power.
At the end of the arc. When Future Zamasu was arisen, Blue Goku showed his true power.

"I ain't losing. Her's my full power!"

And he pushed Zamasu's energy beam back, damaging Zamasu's body in the process. That was before he even used Kaioken.

Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.
Yet goku was completely helpless against black. If goku was truly that strong without any kind of being desperate or anger why did he not crush black why did he let himself get his a*** kicked constantly even after several rage boost and finding out goten and chichi where killed. You would think the guy after coming to near death on several occasions with a futile fight would go full power no.

Its as simple as merged zamasu holding back until vegito appeared.
If Vegeta was indeed dozens of times stronger: why didn't he stand the longest against Merged Zamasu before Vegito became obliged, while Goku was hanging in the ropes?

The fact Merged Zamasu didn't use full power isn't enough proof in my opinion. They were both subjected to the same attacks and yet Goku stood till the end and Vegeta did not.
Goku and Vegeta were both pretty much owning Black with their rage in Blue before he started his Ki-manipulation game.
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superperfectnerd
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Saiyan36
Dec 31 2017, 12:12 PM
StrenuousSpider
Dec 31 2017, 02:00 AM
Saiyan36
Dec 30 2017, 12:46 PM
Dagon
Dec 30 2017, 03:21 AM
SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
 
http://oi63.tinypic.com/2efpyrd.jpg

We already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza.

The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.


For me it comes from power scaling the Goku Black arc, and making logical assumptions on what power gains could have occurred since.

Goku Black Arc:

Goku/Vegeta:
SSJB: 1

Goku Black(1st battle in the future, when Vegeta gets stabbed by Rose Black):
~Base: 1 (did not really take any damage from Vegeta. This is a lowball for me.)
~SSJRose: 50(SSJRose is Goku Black's version of SSJ, so is probably a 50x boost)

Vegeta(Rematch against Black, post RoSaT)
~SSJB: 100 (absolutely mauled SSJR Goku Black.)

Now here's where it gets a bit interesting. Ok, Goku fought hit in a rematch. They fought to a draw. Both got more powerful since the U6 Arc.
In the U6 arc, Goku used Blue Kaio-Ken x10 to break Hit's time skip dimension.
In the rematch, regular Blue Goku broke Hit's time dimension, no Kaio-Ken used.
That means Goku got at barest minimum 10x stronger.

If Blue Goku was a 10, then his KKx10 would make him match Vegeta's 100 on my scale. KKx20 would make him twice as powerful as Vegeta. So Goku would still have the edge over Vegeta with the use of Kaio-Ken.
But that's a lowball. We know Goku must be higher than a 10 because Hit was stronger than the last time, so he'd be stronger than U6 KKx10 Goku by a notable amount.

Goku black actually got an amount stronger in between the first and second fights with Vegeta, and Blue Vegeta still wrecked him easily in their rematch. Vegeta would have had to get in the realm of 100x stronger to have that effect against Goku Black.
Goku did get stronger from zenkais and at least one rage moment but he still has a huge gap to catch up to Vegeta before the Tournament of Power.

This is at least how they stood back in the Goku Black arc. Whether or not Goku has caught up to Vegeta's level since then is unknown. Vegeta doesn't have any absolutely definitive, in no uncertain terms, direct power statements, just a few vague feats, in the ToP. We will find out for sure in the coming episodes when Vegeta fights at max power.
At the end of the arc. When Future Zamasu was arisen, Blue Goku showed his true power.

"I ain't losing. Her's my full power!"

And he pushed Zamasu's energy beam back, damaging Zamasu's body in the process. That was before he even used Kaioken.

Vegeta was lying on the ground with his gear split in half in the arms of Trunks by that point. Completely defeated.
Yet goku was completely helpless against black. If goku was truly that strong without any kind of being desperate or anger why did he not crush black why did he let himself get his a*** kicked constantly even after several rage boost and finding out goten and chichi where killed. You would think the guy after coming to near death on several occasions with a futile fight would go full power no.

Its as simple as merged zamasu holding back until vegito appeared.
If Vegeta was indeed dozens of times stronger: why didn't he stand the longest against Merged Zamasu before Vegito became obliged, while Goku was hanging in the ropes?

The fact Merged Zamasu didn't use full power isn't enough proof in my opinion. They were both subjected to the same attacks and yet Goku stood till the end and Vegeta did not.
Goku and Vegeta were both pretty much owning Black with their rage in Blue before he started his Ki-manipulation game.
It's bad writing, one episode outright implies Vegeta has trained, harnessed his rage at Black and surpassed everyone else in the battlefield and then the next episode somebody went "oh s*** this is the Goku show! Got to give him an inexplicable feat to make him look better than everyone else!" Moments after a cool father son Galick Gun and Vegeta finally besting a main antagonist Goku has to come out of nowhere and diminish it all with no explanation as to how he did better. Although, Kamehameha > Galick Gun. Vegeta may have been able to do the same to Zamasu if not more with a Final Flash.

Gotta wait for the episode really but as of the preview ssjb Vegeta looks far stronger than ssjb Goku did in his first fight with Jiren and even kaioken. Rmember Vegeta still wanted to fight Jiren after seeing Goku lose but he may have thought Goku had the advantage with UI and just ran out of time, so he thinks he doesn't have t be UI level to challenge Jiren, he just needs to be stronger than ssjbkkx20 Goku, which is still a massive stretch.

I don't think acquiring UI is about power thresholds, it's about training to move instinctively and then pushing your body when at breaking point and breaking those limits. Goku has been in situations to do this, Vegeta has not and Vegeta "has a chip on his shoulder" so isn't as naturally capable of UI as Goku is. Goku's weakness is letting his guard down but that doesn't affect his max power, it doesn't hold him back. Vegeta was told he needs to learn to rest like Goku and not be wound so tightly to reach his full potential and even after being told this in Super Vegeta continued to train through the night whilst Goku slept. This isn't an advantage, this weakens Vegeta, he doesn't have the balance than Goku has.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 31 2017, 01:20 PM.
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