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is currennt ssjb goku on par with ssjb vegeta again
Topic Started: Dec 27 2017, 11:24 PM (15,826 Views)
SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGmpsLXVwAIcJBH.jpg

In the animedia magazine they released.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Has anyone properly translated those? I found this;

https://imgur.com/a/j90rU

But there's no source for the translations and the actual statement made in there isn't solid confirmation that Goku is the strongest.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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All you have to do is Google search the image. Multiple sites contain partial bits of translated text from it.

The text flat out states that Goku is the strongest in U7 and Frieza is on his level, so vegeta isn't stronger than either.
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superperfectnerd
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I don't think it matters, if Vegeta is stronger they wouldn't reveal it before the tournament even starts, they'd save it as a surprise. We've seen Goku fight all of his teammates whilst gathering them except for Vegeta, Freeza was the only one to stalemate him. Ergo, this poster is just meant to reveal what the audience is already supposed to think from watching the show. If Vegeta is strongest, it wouldn't be revealed on a poster... so who cares?

We're supposed to think "oh yeah Goku is the main character! He's the strongest and what Freeza can match him!!!!!!!!! OMGGGG!!!!!!"

Doesn't even make sense, Freeza is as strong as ssjb Goku which isn't Goku's max, ssjbkkx10 (what we know he can so when the poster was released) is his max... so Freeza isn't equal to Goku. That throws this information out the window because it's inaccurate from the get go.

You aren't viewing it from a marketing standpoint. We were meant to think Goku and Freeza were the strongest like 30 episodes ago. That was 30 episodes ago.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 28 2017, 08:56 PM.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Welp, RIP any idea of Vegeta ever having any importance again.
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Thiln
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Goku is already so exorbitantly powerful now that most everyone in this tournament can't even be described as existing in the same dimension of power as he, that's including the strongest of the rosters sans Jiren. At this point Beerus and the other Hakaishin seem to be intimidated to some extent by him when he's harnessing the power of Ultra Instinct Omen. It's needless overexaggeration of someone who already sings lockstep to the tune of hackneyed caricatures like a swan bird. Does it feel like a necessity to Toei and Toriyama for this concept to be dressed up yet again or are their expectations of what fans want so shallow that they feel an arc isn't complete without Goku perched on a pedestal far above everyone? It's tradition, I know, but they risked new criticism being directed towards their writing when they elected to resurrect the series twenty years after it had ended.

Now as for Vegeta, I think he could reattain his equal positioning with Goku if the right conditions were established. My idea would be to have him somehow amplify his power through some exclusive training of his own that enables him to surpass Goku in the blue state. If it's only just double what Goku's power is then it should be sufficient enough to compensate for Kaioken x20 once the next step is realised. Following this, the next step would entail somehow harnessing the power of Oozaru except it's condensed down into Vegeta's human form. How you go about achieving this probably involves a bit of creative license. Vegeta would likely have to attain this power artificially. Perhaps the remains of the Oozaru tail cut from when he first arrived on Earth are located. It was explained by Vegeta that the transformation occurs as a result of the glands in the tail reacting to the absorption of green spectrum radiation through the retinas.

Well the simian transformation itself could be further elaborated upon as the resultant development and spread of great ape genetics via the aforementioned reaction to the radiation. If somehow the glands in the tail that facilitate this transformation could be isolated from the physiological altering DNA and inserted into the human body directly without the tail then it might be theoretically possible to create the effect of the Saiyan's power increasing without having him transform. The issue then would involve how one goes about getting the necessary radiation without the need for a full moon. Well who's to say the auras of fighters can't produce radiation of some kind if attempted? If Vegeta could somehow alter the makeup of his aura to project the green spectrum radiation at 17 million zeno units then he might be able to receive a 10x power increase. Couple that with the exclusive training and you might be looking at a hypothetical Vegeta who is on par with Goku in Kaioken x20 and blue together. Ultra Instinct would be the obvious solution for matching Goku in his present condition.

It's far-fetched, true, but possibly one of the most character appropriate means for Vegeta to attain enough power to keep up with Goku.
Edited by Thiln, Dec 28 2017, 09:55 PM.
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StrenuousSpider
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Dec 28 2017, 06:59 PM
StrenuousSpider
Dec 28 2017, 09:24 AM
SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Dec 28 2017, 08:11 AM
Goku is stated to be the strongest in U7 with Frieza as his equal so no. And that isn't even the only nail in the coffin. There isn't any implication in the story that vegeta is above Goku.
Goku and vegeta are equals then this stuff happens.

Goku trained for maybe 30 mins at most.
Vegeta trains with whis and in rosat twice.

Goku gets crushed by black and vegeta crushes black even after powering up from the version that smashed goku.

Goku saying he did not think he could beat toppo even with kaioken.
Vegeta had little problems with toppo even when distracted.

Goku saying of freiza acts up him or vegeta could take him down. If vegeta was weaker thats not exactly possible now is it.

Goku was said to be the strongest because pf two wonderful things.
1. Kaioken
2. Ultra instinct

Its the exact same reason why goku is stated to be stronger even by vegeta in the buu saga. Because goku had something he did not ssj3. Even tho in every other way they where equals.

Now i know you stay in your own little world where your selective mind dose not see the whole story but to say the material dose not show vegeta to be stronger is just downright wrong on so many levels. And yes we all know toei probably has the two equals still but that has yet to be shown when in same forms.
Irrelevant. Vegeta was stronger than Goku during the black fight and that's it. It doesn't matter if vegeta trained in the rosat twice. He isnt gokus superior. And Goku already pushed back vegetas full power during the baseball match after the black arc and Goku wasn't doing any training after the black arc.

Goku is the stated strongest in U7 and Frieza is stated to be his equal. Can't get around it, so vegeta isn't stronger than Ssb Goku or frieza. So vegeta is at most equal to those 2.

I'm not really interested in having a "debate" in which you pretend that vegeta being massively stronger than Goku despite the people that make the show saying otherwise is somehow an assertion that makes any sense whatsoever.
You should really stop useing the baseball s*** as a feat. Like he said it was a gag scean for 1. And two beerus and champa went all out nearly destroying the universe yet yamcha was some how able to survive that thats funny.

And so what if toei said goku was stronger it was directly stated in the material itself that if it was not goku to beat freiza then vegeta could that puts vegeta at the least equal to goku and freiza not inferior. Also like i mentioned freiza technically is inferior to goku as well dose kaioken or ultra instinct ring any bells in that head of yours.
Do you want to know something else that was said that is straight up false. It was said goku leading U7 and Jiren leading U11 but we all know gohan and toppo are the leaders of there respective universes. So again as of right now the source material has shown that vegeta should be stronger. And so you are not confused Source material > Author statements until they show otherwise but then that goes into source material and no longer author statements.

And going back to the black stuff. Tell me how vegeta goes from being stronger to being weaker when goku has done basically no training and training is all vegeta has done. For that to make any sense you would need to have vegeta way weaker then goku in black arc but you yourself even admitted that vegeta was stronger. Or maybe farming made goku insanely strong while training with whis and rosat made vegeta weaker.

Or maybe we look at what actually happened. And make a educated guess from there. And ignore gags and toei statements as they completely contradict whats been shown.

Goku learns mafuba.
Vegeta trains for months to a year
Goku farms between arcs
Vegeta trains with whis between arcs
Goku trains for like 30 mins with whis
Vegeta yet again trains for months to a year
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StrenuousSpider
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Thiln
Dec 28 2017, 09:52 PM
Goku is already so exorbitantly powerful now that most everyone in this tournament can't even be described as existing in the same dimension of power as he, that's including the strongest of the rosters sans Jiren. At this point Beerus and the other Hakaishin seem to be intimidated to some extent by him when he's harnessing the power of Ultra Instinct Omen. It's needless overexaggeration of someone who already sings lockstep to the tune of hackneyed caricatures like a swan bird. Does it feel like a necessity to Toei and Toriyama for this concept to be dressed up yet again or are their expectations of what fans want so shallow that they feel an arc isn't complete without Goku perched on a pedestal far above everyone? It's tradition, I know, but they risked new criticism being directed towards their writing when they elected to resurrect the series twenty years after it had ended.

Now as for Vegeta, I think he could reattain his equal positioning with Goku if the right conditions were established. My idea would be to have him somehow amplify his power through some exclusive training of his own that enables him to surpass Goku in the blue state. If it's only just double what Goku's power is then it should be sufficient enough to compensate for Kaioken x20 once the next step is realised. Following this, the next step would entail somehow harnessing the power of Oozaru except it's condensed down into Vegeta's human form. How you go about achieving this probably involves a bit of creative license. Vegeta would likely have to attain this power artificially. Perhaps the remains of the Oozaru tail cut from when he first arrived on Earth are located. It was explained by Vegeta that the transformation occurs as a result of the glands in the tail reacting to the absorption of green spectrum radiation through the retinas.

Well the simian transformation itself could be further elaborated upon as the resultant development and spread of great ape genetics via the aforementioned reaction to the radiation. If somehow the glands in the tail that facilitate this transformation could be isolated from the physiological altering DNA and inserted into the human body directly without the tail then it might be theoretically possible to create the effect of the Saiyan's power increasing without having him transform. The issue then would involve how one goes about getting the necessary radiation without the need for a full moon. Well who's to say the auras of fighters can't produce radiation of some kind if attempted? If Vegeta could somehow alter the makeup of his aura to project the green spectrum radiation at 17 million zeno units then he might be able to receive a 10x power increase. Couple that with the exclusive training and you might be looking at a hypothetical Vegeta who is on par with Goku in Kaioken x20 and blue together. Ultra Instinct would be the obvious solution for matching Goku in his present condition.

It's far-fetched, true, but possibly one of the most character appropriate means for Vegeta to attain enough power to keep up with Goku.
He could just use that artificial moon that he used in sayain arc to transform.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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The baseball scene not counting is your opinion. An irrelevant one at that since its based on nothing but your wishful thinking.
If you're going off what's shown then that I don't see why that's discounted. It's more concrete than you assuming that vegetas stronger than Goku just because he went in the rosat which isn't stated anywhere. And Goku said that he or vegeta would beat Frieza before he found out that Frieza got stronger.

The source material holds precedence over a direct statement from people whom make said source material?

Not only does this not make sense due to the said material not even being logically separate from the person who wrote it, who even decided this? Or is this just something you hear being purported mindlessly and adopted it into your own mindset?

Complete and utter nonsense that isn't worth an iota of acknowledgement. No evidence that vegeta is stronger than Goku. "He went into the rosat" isn't evidence. No in story acknowledgement of such superiority by anyone nor is this demonstrated.

Goku is the strongest in U7 as stated by toei. Frieza is his stated equal. Therefore vegeta isn't stronger than either of them. It's as simple as 1+1=2.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Dec 28 2017, 11:34 PM.
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superperfectnerd
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But Freeza isn't as strong as Goku?

To be honest we only have to wait one week to find out where Vegeta stands. I don't think promotional material from 30 episodes ago means anything. It'd be like Toei revealing that Gohan is stronger than Goku before Goku actually said it in the show, you can bet that their advertisement for the Cell Games would have been something like "can Goku, the Earth's strongest hero defeat the evil android Cell?!" Meaningless, we know after the event Gohan was the strongest but it'd have been pretty s*** if they told us that on the poster wouldn't it? Goku fought everyone but Vegeta in the build up, so the other characters (and therefore the audience) don't know how strong he really is.

Also can an event happening in both the anime and the manga be the main indicator that it's canon? The baseball episode was fun filler but it shouldn't play into power scaling should it? It isn't even in the manga at all. Yes I'm aware that the scaling is different in the manga but events that aren't important to the story, completely removed from the manga, shouldn't contribute to anime scaling imo.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 28 2017, 11:40 PM.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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http://oi63.tinypic.com/2efpyrd.jpg

We already know where vegeta stands, so we don't have to wait for anything. He's at most equal to Ssb Goku and Frieza.

The fandom needs to give this up. I have no idea where this obsession with having vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku came from.
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superperfectnerd
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There's no point arguing, we'll see anyway, I'm saying your logic of trusting 30 episode old promotional material is flawed either way.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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It being 30 episodes old doesn't invalidate it. And that isn't even the only instance that disproves the "vegeta>>>>>>goku" notion, another being when Goku pushes back vegetas full power after the black arc.

There is nothing in the story implying this, so as far as logical consistency is concerned people are claiming this for no reason.
It holds as much weight as a claim that yamcha is training off screen and should be blue tier when we see him again.
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superperfectnerd
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Do you think they advertised when Gohan was stronger than Goku? No. The status quo is that Goku is the best, stating it is like saying "the sky is blue", it means nothing if they want to surprise the audience. If Vegeta can trade blows with Jiren next episode then he was likely stronger than at least ssjb Goku before he broke his limits. Goku's blue being stronger now than it was before because of circumstances doesn't negate Vegeta doing better than he did before that happened. We'll see next week but the preview makes it look like Jiren is pressured and has to actually react to the Final Flash. Goku couldn't budge him before.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 29 2017, 12:45 AM.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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Ssb Goku traded blows with jiren with the latter showing expression and jiren needed to react to his Kamehameha. And Ssb Goku is blocking Jirens hits while smiling with his eyes closed if you're trying to reach.

If vegeta breaks his limits and becomes stronger than Ssb Goku, fine. It has nothing to do with their states at the beginning of the TOP. Regardless of how good you think Ssb vegeta does next episode, it will remain fact that he wasn't stronger than Ssb Goku and on the basis of pure power, goku could replicate his performance.
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