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Can they amp themselves with God ki?
Topic Started: Dec 19 2017, 09:18 PM (7,343 Views)
Vegerot1990
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Yu Narukami
Dec 25 2017, 12:03 PM
Dagon
Dec 25 2017, 02:48 AM
Yu Narukami
Dec 24 2017, 12:15 PM
How much more? It's got to be at least 100x, because SSJ2 Vegeta was absolutely trouncing SSJ2 Black. In fact, Trunks says that Black's even stronger than when he last fought him, so current Black in that case is stronger than the Black that would take SSJ3 Goku out with no trouble whatsoever. As far as I recall, we don't even get a statement about Vegeta's SSJ2 form being mutated at any point in the Manga. He just gets really angry, powers up and charges Beerus, so is there any solid evidence that his SSJ2 form is stronger than Goku's SSJ3?
It's merely Toyotaro being inconsistent with the scale.
So there's no actual evidence to say that Vegeta's SSJ2 is mutated then.

It could be down to inconsistent scaling, but then it could also be them amping themselves up with God Ki. Toyotaro's been pretty consistent, so why would he suddenly make Vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku in the same form?
Its been stated that they only use God Ki when they are using Super Saiyan Blue or Red. Super Saiyan 2 maybe have hidden Potential which can be achieved through Rage. In the Anime Trunks achieved Super Saiyan Rage with Super Saiyan 2 through Rage. The Regular Super Saiyan forms don't have the Ki Control that Super Saiyan Blue have.
Edited by Vegerot1990, Dec 25 2017, 04:03 PM.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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Problem is Vegeta seemed pretty surprised that Trunks could power up even further as a Super Saiyan 2. Seems pretty evident to me that Vegeta's outburst was temporary. I also don't recall it being stated that they only possess God Ki in SSG and SSGSS.
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Vegerot1990
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ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Dec 25 2017, 04:03 PM
Problem is Vegeta seemed pretty surprised that Trunks could power up even further as a Super Saiyan 2. Seems pretty evident to me that Vegeta's outburst was temporary. I also don't recall it being stated that they only possess God Ki in SSG and SSGSS.
Because Goku and Vegeta cannot be sensed by regular Mortals when they are using God forms. They can be sensed fine when they are using Base, SSJ 1, SSJ 2, SSJ 3.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Dec 25 2017, 04:03 PM
Problem is Vegeta seemed pretty surprised that Trunks could power up even further as a Super Saiyan 2. Seems pretty evident to me that Vegeta's outburst was temporary. I also don't recall it being stated that they only possess God Ki in SSG and SSGSS.
It is implied. Toppo says goku finally has a god aura when he turns ssjg
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* Yu Narukami
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Ssj3vegito96
Dec 25 2017, 04:27 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Dec 25 2017, 04:03 PM
Problem is Vegeta seemed pretty surprised that Trunks could power up even further as a Super Saiyan 2. Seems pretty evident to me that Vegeta's outburst was temporary. I also don't recall it being stated that they only possess God Ki in SSG and SSGSS.
It is implied. Toppo says goku finally has a god aura when he turns ssjg
That's assuming Goku would be using his God Ki-amped SSJ forms to begin with though. He never starts off all-out, and the pace at which Beerus forced him to transform meant that augmenting them would be pointless.
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Vegerot1990
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Yu Narukami
Dec 25 2017, 04:40 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Dec 25 2017, 04:27 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Dec 25 2017, 04:03 PM
Problem is Vegeta seemed pretty surprised that Trunks could power up even further as a Super Saiyan 2. Seems pretty evident to me that Vegeta's outburst was temporary. I also don't recall it being stated that they only possess God Ki in SSG and SSGSS.
It is implied. Toppo says goku finally has a god aura when he turns ssjg
That's assuming Goku would be using his God Ki-amped SSJ forms to begin with though. He never starts off all-out, and the pace at which Beerus forced him to transform meant that augmenting them would be pointless.
Even if they could use God Ki with Regular Forms. The Aura should have changed.
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Yu Narukami
Dec 25 2017, 04:40 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Dec 25 2017, 04:27 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Dec 25 2017, 04:03 PM
Problem is Vegeta seemed pretty surprised that Trunks could power up even further as a Super Saiyan 2. Seems pretty evident to me that Vegeta's outburst was temporary. I also don't recall it being stated that they only possess God Ki in SSG and SSGSS.
It is implied. Toppo says goku finally has a god aura when he turns ssjg
That's assuming Goku would be using his God Ki-amped SSJ forms to begin with though. He never starts off all-out, and the pace at which Beerus forced him to transform meant that augmenting them would be pointless.
Yeah that's a good point. I forgot about that

Also something I just thought about. Both times a gold haired form seemed really strong, goku and vegeta knew or at least had an idea of how strong their opponent was

Goku used ssj1 against hit after vegeta fought him and he did surprisingly well making him close to vegetas drained blue form. Goku wanted to test trunks and toppo because he didn't know how strong they were. When ssj2 vegeta fought goku black he was way stronger than ssj2 goku against trunks

So that could be evidence of amped ssj forms too right?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Dec 25 2017, 05:28 PM.
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* Yu Narukami
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Ssj3vegito96
Dec 25 2017, 05:27 PM
Yu Narukami
Dec 25 2017, 04:40 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Dec 25 2017, 04:27 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Dec 25 2017, 04:03 PM
Problem is Vegeta seemed pretty surprised that Trunks could power up even further as a Super Saiyan 2. Seems pretty evident to me that Vegeta's outburst was temporary. I also don't recall it being stated that they only possess God Ki in SSG and SSGSS.
It is implied. Toppo says goku finally has a god aura when he turns ssjg
That's assuming Goku would be using his God Ki-amped SSJ forms to begin with though. He never starts off all-out, and the pace at which Beerus forced him to transform meant that augmenting them would be pointless.
Yeah that's a good point. I forgot about that

Also something I just thought about. Both times a gold haired form seemed really strong, goku and vegeta knew or at least had an idea of how strong their opponent was

Goku used ssj1 against hit after vegeta fought him and he did surprisingly well making him close to vegetas drained blue form. Goku wanted to test trunks and toppo because he didn't know how strong they were. When ssj2 vegeta fought goku black he was way stronger than ssj2 goku against trunks

So that could be evidence of amped ssj forms too right?
I hadn't even considered those circumstances, and they'd be great examples. Instances where SSJ/2 is demonstrably stronger than it should be and where it would make sense for them to know how strong their opponent is.

All through the series, to me at least, it's seemed as though SSG and SSB have been full-blown transformations rather than simply adding God Ki to whatever form they're in. Goku jumps from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan God in his battle with Hit, right? If we're gonna believe that SSB is just Goku adding God Ki to his Super Saiyan form, he should've gone Blue in that instance, right? Toyotaro has actually delved into different aspects of God Ki in the manga, and it seems like a more complex beast within that medium.

Vegerot - Not necessarily, why would their auras have to change?
Edited by Yu Narukami, Dec 25 2017, 05:42 PM.
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Yeah I think it makes a lot of sense for them to feel out their opponents with regular ssj forms and amp them when they're more serious. That's really what it looks like

If the Japanese dub of the anime mentioned that proper ki control maximizes power out like the English dub does then I'd say it all makes sense now and I'd apply it to the manga

One thing I'm confused on still is why goku needed to go ssjg against trunks though
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Vegerot1990
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Yu Narukami
Dec 25 2017, 05:41 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Dec 25 2017, 05:27 PM
Yu Narukami
Dec 25 2017, 04:40 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Dec 25 2017, 04:27 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Dec 25 2017, 04:03 PM
Problem is Vegeta seemed pretty surprised that Trunks could power up even further as a Super Saiyan 2. Seems pretty evident to me that Vegeta's outburst was temporary. I also don't recall it being stated that they only possess God Ki in SSG and SSGSS.
It is implied. Toppo says goku finally has a god aura when he turns ssjg
That's assuming Goku would be using his God Ki-amped SSJ forms to begin with though. He never starts off all-out, and the pace at which Beerus forced him to transform meant that augmenting them would be pointless.
Yeah that's a good point. I forgot about that

Also something I just thought about. Both times a gold haired form seemed really strong, goku and vegeta knew or at least had an idea of how strong their opponent was

Goku used ssj1 against hit after vegeta fought him and he did surprisingly well making him close to vegetas drained blue form. Goku wanted to test trunks and toppo because he didn't know how strong they were. When ssj2 vegeta fought goku black he was way stronger than ssj2 goku against trunks

So that could be evidence of amped ssj forms too right?
I hadn't even considered those circumstances, and they'd be great examples. Instances where SSJ/2 is demonstrably stronger than it should be and where it would make sense for them to know how strong their opponent is.

All through the series, to me at least, it's seemed as though SSG and SSB have been full-blown transformations rather than simply adding God Ki to whatever form they're in. Goku jumps from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan God in his battle with Hit, right? If we're gonna believe that SSB is just Goku adding God Ki to his Super Saiyan form, he should've gone Blue in that instance, right? Toyotaro has actually delved into different aspects of God Ki in the manga, and it seems like a more complex beast within that medium.

Vegerot - Not necessarily, why would their auras have to change?
When Toppo used God Ki, you could see how his Aura flared up. As for the fight with Hit. He was holding back alot of Power until Goku used Super Saiyan God. Its not necessary the same suppressed level he used against Vegeta. Why could all the humans who were there could sense Goku until he used God?
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Dagon
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Goku and Vegeta do not have a second pool of ki that they choose whether or not to add that on top of their regular ki. No, their ENTIRE pool of ki is their own mortal ki other than red and blue god forms. 2 base theory is invalid, additive separate god ki is invalid, non linear power scales are invalid.
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superperfectnerd
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I honestly think that Toyotaro just messed up and wanted Trunks to be desperate but Black to be adapting and seem like an amatuer in comparison to Goku and Vegeta... whilst Trunks was also impressive to Goku and Vegeta. I makes no sense, it's just a f*** up.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 25 2017, 08:49 PM.
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* Yu Narukami
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Dagon
Dec 25 2017, 08:41 PM
Goku and Vegeta do not have a second pool of ki that they choose whether or not to add that on top of their regular ki. No, their ENTIRE pool of ki is their own mortal ki other than red and blue god forms. 2 base theory is invalid, additive separate god ki is invalid, non linear power scales are invalid.
How does it work then? The God forms are literally adding God Ki to their base form or their Super Saiyan form, and they're able to suppress down to ridiculously low levels in both forms, so it's definitely a conscious decision where they can control how much God Ki they're accessing.
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Dagon
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Yu Narukami
Dec 25 2017, 09:19 PM
Dagon
Dec 25 2017, 08:41 PM
Goku and Vegeta do not have a second pool of ki that they choose whether or not to add that on top of their regular ki. No, their ENTIRE pool of ki is their own mortal ki other than red and blue god forms. 2 base theory is invalid, additive separate god ki is invalid, non linear power scales are invalid.
How does it work then? The God forms are literally adding God Ki to their base form or their Super Saiyan form, and they're able to suppress down to ridiculously low levels in both forms, so it's definitely a conscious decision where they can control how much God Ki they're accessing.
Don't think of it as "god ki." Their non-god forms, aka anything below SSJB and SSJG, merely have been raised to a super high level and its still mortal ki. It's all one pool of ki. There's not a separate ki pool that they pour into their other forms.
Edited by Dagon, Dec 25 2017, 10:14 PM.
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Saiyan36
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I agree on that one. You don't use 50 % God-Ki and 50 % normal Ki. You use God-Ki or normal Ki.

God-Ki demands very high Ki-control. It could very well be they are able to use the perfected Ki-control to strenghten their casual forms without using God-Ki.

But in that case: when does Goku use a massively strong SSJ2 or SSJ3 in the manga? I can't remember it. This makes me think it's just the strenghtened SSJ2-form of Vegeta and Trunks that explains the inconcistency.

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