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Can they amp themselves with God ki?
Topic Started: Dec 19 2017, 09:18 PM (7,344 Views)
Saiyan36
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Black does not have God-Ki activated in his normal SSJ-form. Only in Rosé. So SSJ Black (or being stronger than him) is no reference point for the actual use of God-Ki.
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* Yu Narukami
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Saiyan36
Dec 23 2017, 09:03 PM
Black does not have God-Ki activated in his normal SSJ-form. Only in Rosé. So SSJ Black (or being stronger than him) is no reference point for the actual use of God-Ki.
We know that Base Black is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks, who's at least as strong as SSJ2 Goku though. SSJ2 Vegeta would end up tens of times stronger than Goku if God Ki wasn't involved somehow.
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Saiyan36
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Yu Narukami
Dec 23 2017, 09:44 PM
Saiyan36
Dec 23 2017, 09:03 PM
Black does not have God-Ki activated in his normal SSJ-form. Only in Rosé. So SSJ Black (or being stronger than him) is no reference point for the actual use of God-Ki.
We know that Base Black is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks, who's at least as strong as SSJ2 Goku though. SSJ2 Vegeta would end up tens of times stronger than Goku if God Ki wasn't involved somehow.
God Ki in the manga = Red or Blue.
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* Yu Narukami
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Saiyan36
Dec 23 2017, 09:56 PM
Yu Narukami
Dec 23 2017, 09:44 PM
Saiyan36
Dec 23 2017, 09:03 PM
Black does not have God-Ki activated in his normal SSJ-form. Only in Rosé. So SSJ Black (or being stronger than him) is no reference point for the actual use of God-Ki.
We know that Base Black is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks, who's at least as strong as SSJ2 Goku though. SSJ2 Vegeta would end up tens of times stronger than Goku if God Ki wasn't involved somehow.
God Ki in the manga = Red or Blue.
How do you explain Vegeta being that much stronger than Goku then? Goku wasn't holding back, we can clearly see that in the fight and the fact that Beerus and Whis are commenting on how strong the two of them are.
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Saiyan36
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Goku nor Vegeta never absorbed SSG-powers in the manga in the first place. So they still need to transform into Red to use the full God-power.

If Goku or Vegeta go SSJ1 or SSJ2 in the manga, how can they use full God-power?

When Goku Black used Rosé for the first time, Vegeta didn't stay in SSJ2, did he? He went straight into Blue.

Red is stated to be a power greater than a Super Saiyan Blue at 10% power. Was the power SSJ2 Vegeta used against Black comparable with that?
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superperfectnerd
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I agree that it seems like god ki is only used in red and blue in every other instance in the manga, we're just saying that this one inconsistency throws it all out of whack.

ssj2 Goku < ssj2 Trunks =< ssj3 Goku < base Black < ssj Black < ssj2 Vegeta

How does that work?
Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 24 2017, 03:25 AM.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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Vegetas mutated ssj2 grants more power than ssj3. Not sure how friezas relevant to anything, but the reason for his strength increase was already stated. And piccolo isn't implied anywhere to be stronger than the base saiyans.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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If Piccolo isn't stronger than the base Saiyans, why did Vegeta use Super Saiyan to finish off Frost?
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+ Ssj3vegito96
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I'm not sure how much evidence there is for this but I wouldn't be surprised if this is how it worked

Ssjb(ssjg with ssj and proper ki control)>ssjg>ssj with proper ki control>ssj
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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That doesn't prove your point regardless of what the answer is since base vegeta being weaker than frost doesn't mean that he's weaker than piccolo and there isn't any evidence that vegeta transformed due to being weaker than tired frost.

That thought process isn't coherent. Piccolo fighting frost does nothing to prove that he's stronger than base vegeta.
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Dagon
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I don't think of it as them "amping/adding" God ki to whatever form they are using. Say if base Goku is a 1, I don't think there's a second pool of ki that he adds to that. If base is 1 and god ki is 10 million, he's not adding that to be 10 million and 1.

No, he just has ki beyond god level in base form period, and his higher forms stack on top of that.

ThePrinceOfSaiyans
 
If Piccolo isn't stronger than the base Saiyans, why did Vegeta use Super Saiyan to finish off Frost?
Vegeta got tired of Frost's sh*t and wanted to show him just how outcalssed he truly was.
Edited by Dagon, Dec 24 2017, 11:54 AM.
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* Yu Narukami
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Dec 24 2017, 03:28 AM
Vegetas mutated ssj2 grants more power than ssj3. Not sure how friezas relevant to anything, but the reason for his strength increase was already stated. And piccolo isn't implied anywhere to be stronger than the base saiyans.
How much more? It's got to be at least 100x, because SSJ2 Vegeta was absolutely trouncing SSJ2 Black. In fact, Trunks says that Black's even stronger than when he last fought him, so current Black in that case is stronger than the Black that would take SSJ3 Goku out with no trouble whatsoever. As far as I recall, we don't even get a statement about Vegeta's SSJ2 form being mutated at any point in the Manga. He just gets really angry, powers up and charges Beerus, so is there any solid evidence that his SSJ2 form is stronger than Goku's SSJ3?
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Saiyan36
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Well indeed. If Vegeta would be able to amp his SSJ2 with some power of SSG (without God-ki), why wouldn't Goku be able too? He has the same level of Ki-control.

Both Trunks (who has no Godly powers) and Vegeta have the same ability to give their SSJ2 an incredible boost. This could be the same type of power-up Vegeta used against Beerus when he got extremely pissed off.
That anime-version was substantially stronger than SSJ3 Goku as well. He gave Beerus a lot 'harder' time.

Maybe SSJ2 has some serious 'hidden' potential, if you keep pushing yourself in SSJ2 long and hard enough (if you are not able to obtain SSJ3), it gets unlocked. Because apparently Goku does not use this strengthened SSJ2-form whilst he does have SSJ3.

The form has a serious sniff of OP, i'll give you that guys.
Edited by Saiyan36, Dec 24 2017, 02:15 PM.
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Dagon
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Yu Narukami
Dec 24 2017, 12:15 PM
How much more? It's got to be at least 100x, because SSJ2 Vegeta was absolutely trouncing SSJ2 Black. In fact, Trunks says that Black's even stronger than when he last fought him, so current Black in that case is stronger than the Black that would take SSJ3 Goku out with no trouble whatsoever. As far as I recall, we don't even get a statement about Vegeta's SSJ2 form being mutated at any point in the Manga. He just gets really angry, powers up and charges Beerus, so is there any solid evidence that his SSJ2 form is stronger than Goku's SSJ3?
It's merely Toyotaro being inconsistent with the scale.
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* Yu Narukami
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Dagon
Dec 25 2017, 02:48 AM
Yu Narukami
Dec 24 2017, 12:15 PM
How much more? It's got to be at least 100x, because SSJ2 Vegeta was absolutely trouncing SSJ2 Black. In fact, Trunks says that Black's even stronger than when he last fought him, so current Black in that case is stronger than the Black that would take SSJ3 Goku out with no trouble whatsoever. As far as I recall, we don't even get a statement about Vegeta's SSJ2 form being mutated at any point in the Manga. He just gets really angry, powers up and charges Beerus, so is there any solid evidence that his SSJ2 form is stronger than Goku's SSJ3?
It's merely Toyotaro being inconsistent with the scale.
So there's no actual evidence to say that Vegeta's SSJ2 is mutated then.

It could be down to inconsistent scaling, but then it could also be them amping themselves up with God Ki. Toyotaro's been pretty consistent, so why would he suddenly make Vegeta hundreds of times stronger than Goku in the same form?
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