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| New Dragon Ball Film: Coming December 2018 | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 16 2017, 03:22 AM (3,862 Views) | |
| superperfectnerd | Jan 24 2018, 02:22 PM Post #31 |
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The strongest of them, getting stronger and stronger, defeating a group of elites who his entire team couldn't touch, by himself, facing down Freeza personally, taking out loads of his troops, again, on his own. The whole fight until death's door and then heal to get stronger and stronger is something any saiyan can do I suppose but I don't want any of Goku's tenacity to be inherited. If Goku hadn't gone to Earth then he'd be no more impressive than Raditz IMO. |
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| YusukeReborn | Jan 24 2018, 03:02 PM Post #32 |
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He was a low class warrior that got immensely stronger through a Zenkai boost. Bardock confronting Freeza is only natural given that he's the main protag of the TV special. It also makes things come full circle with Goku being the one to beat Freeza. |
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| superperfectnerd | Jan 25 2018, 02:31 AM Post #33 |
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That's my point, Bardock should never be a main protag. It makes Goku's lineage seem grander than it should and I believe it takes away from Goku's achievements to be following in such an impressive low level saiyans footsteps, instead of just being a marvel because of his circumstances. It seems unlikely that both Bardock and Goku would be so adept at self improvement when one is simply a traditional low class saiyan and one had the extraordinary upbringing on Earth. There should be nothing impressive about Goku's parents, that's what makes it so infuriating for Vegeta to keep being behind him.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 25 2018, 02:32 AM.
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| Arkadom | Mar 7 2018, 08:12 PM Post #34 |
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Bargle nawdle zouss
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It hardly makes Bardock grand that he got killed by Frieza in his lowest form with an attack that was meant for the planet and not even actually for him. Bardock was also far from a gifted fighter. Don't forget Bardock was a solider, he'd been fighting full on wars for many years, probably as much as Goku had fought (if not more) by the end of the Buu arc. All of the power he had was earned and he still got taken out in an attack not even meant for him. The point of the Father of Goku special was never to make Bardock a hero, it was just to showcase the oft-mentioned destruction of planey Vegeta, and used Goku's dad as a vessel to tell the story, and seeing Goku's parentage was something fans absolutely went nuts for back in the day. 2 birds with one stone. It was only episode of Bardock and onwards where Bardock got embellished, but that's very VERY dubious whether it's in the canon or not and still debated to this day. Bardock's character takes nothing away from Goku regardless. They never interacted and Goku inherited absolutely nothing from his father. All of his combat ability came from grandpa Gohan/Roshi and from being naturally built for combat as a Saiyan gave him an advantage, none of it was Bardock, or Gine. Goku has even said he doesn't care about his parentage and just assumes they were barbaric warriors, that's proof enough that Goku was not at all built up by his parents. Not that I understand the belief that Bardock lessens Goku's achievement anyway, in classic Shonen tradition almost all of his achievements have turned out to be gifted to him through one means or another. No work at all the become a super Saiyan god, he started unlocking UI completely by chance, he became a super Saiyan because he was raised a human and had enough sentimental emotion to turn into rage, but he didn't work for that. He was raised that way and then witnessed the death of Krillin. Only managed to best Frieza because he became a super Saiyan, not because of his actual combat prowess. Was meant to die of a heart virus, got saved by Trunks travelling back in time. Sure he's managed a lot through his own effortin his life but to only now start complaining that Saiyans or Goku's bloodline should not be embellished is both about 20 years late and seems like a personal issue instead of a genuine flae with the series. Goku's heritage literally never mattered, but he was still given pretty much every advantage and win he ever made post-DB by someone else. If we need more there's always having to rely on Special Beam Cannon to defeat Raditz and relying on Whis to turn back time to kill Frieza again. Goku's been gifted pretty much everything that people remember and talk about in this series, why start panicking about the original SS being an ancestor to Goku now? It makes no difference, they were so far apart in time that they'd have barely any DNA relation left. |
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| superperfectnerd | Mar 7 2018, 08:26 PM Post #35 |
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It's still thematically damaging to me because it implies Goku comes from greatness rather than the greatness being "earned" and I don't mean he had no help, I mean the very circumstances of his upbringing made him the perfect saiyan warrior despite ironically being abandoned by the saiyans for being weak. It's brilliant irony that he would become the strongest of them all, whether it's because of the Dragon Balls or his upbringing or his less aggressive nature due to both his wound and how he was raised, being good gave him the opportunity to train with gods etc, Goku became great because of those circumstances but if you make him a descendent of the original ssj or ssjg it implies him and Vegeta have special potential to be great in their gene pool and both just happen to be the last two alive as well? Raditz could be Goku level, Nappa could, any saiyan could. And Bardock was special in his own crew, they got slaughtered by elites, Bardock took down like 5 by himself, only falling short to Dodoria, one of Freeza's top henchmen, one of the strongest warriors in the universe. Dodoria might seem like a joke now but he was stronger than the 'super elite' Vegeta. |
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| Arkadom | Mar 7 2018, 11:27 PM Post #36 |
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Bargle nawdle zouss
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Surely that would just reinforce the irony then? That despite all of that heritage he was abandoned for weakness and still went on to reach heights and levels that no mortal in any universe ever achieved before? The first super Saiyan being related to him might have given him a slight genetic advantage but again they were so many generations apart it would just be a cheesy reveal that makes us roll our eyes instead of a reason for Goku's power, no genes can go through that many generations without being diluted and mutated into something different. As well as that even if the first super Saiyan god was related to Goku somehow, that means nothing. SSG is achieved through a ritual, not training or power, so it couldn't be passed down by genetics. Dragon Ball has never been a series of destiny or prophecy though so I really have no worry about it. If the origins of the Saiyans somehoe directly relates to Goku then I'll just chalk it up to being typically weak and predictable writing as most of the series has been, but even then I'd say it's about 50/50 whether it'll happen. |
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| superperfectnerd | Mar 8 2018, 02:36 AM Post #37 |
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We are essentially saying the same thing then? I think Goku having great routes is cliche and cheesy and undermines his hard/smart work and luck. You think a lot of fans won't say "Goku is related to the first ssjg! That's so cool!" whilst I roll my eyes about how thematically disappointing that is for the underdog story. Raditz arriving on Earth and shattering the illusion that Goku was special was great, he's the strongest human because he's an ordinary saiyan tossed aside by his race, then his rivalry with the 'elite' of his species begins and Goku triumphs because of who he is, not his birthright. Vegeta may have more potential but in the end it's meaningless against hard work and strong relationships with others to aid you. I just think that's a better message than "these two saiyans are strong because they're prodigies... the rest are trash". It better resembles the real world class divide. |
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| Arkadom | Mar 8 2018, 10:24 AM Post #38 |
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Bargle nawdle zouss
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But I'm saying it doesn't matter if Goku or Vegeta are related to any past powerhouses because the generation gap means they'd inherit practically nothing. The relation will only diminish the story that has been told so far either if you decide to intentionally believe it so, or if the movie for whatever reason decides to state Goku and Vegeta have such powet specifically because of their ancestors, but then why were Bardock and King Vegeta so utterly weak? |
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| superperfectnerd | Mar 8 2018, 09:34 PM Post #39 |
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This is a cartoon, if Goku is a descendant of the original ssjg people won't be going "well his dna is so diluted since that event..." will they? God ki may be implied to pass on increased potential or something like that. Bardock and King Vegeta weren't weak, 10,000 is a massive level compared to 99.99% of the universe. Remember, if not for the Dragon Balls, in his one life, Goku would have died with a power level of 416 and Vegeta only 2,500,000, much lower than the heights they eventually reach. No saiyan had trained with a kai before Goku, no saiyan had trained at 100Gs before Goku and no saiyan had attacked Freeza's strongest fighters head on until Vegeta. Plus Freeza needed Vegeta alive so he kept getting healed and getting zenkais. Saiyans were natural born fighters stronger than most people they conquered, on a rare occasion they meet a challenge they can just go oozaru and wreck the place and if they are mortally wounded they don't have senzu beans, they simply die. King Vegeta lounging around on a throne with a power level of 10,000 and his child surpassing that by conquering weaklings is very impressive. Just because thanks to the likes of Goku there are now humans who have been pushed to such great heights as even Yamcha soloing all the saiyans, doesn't mean 10,000 wasn't impressive, or does Yamcha have more potential than Nappa or Raditz? No, he just followed in Goku's footsteps and got stronger than 'normal' for his race. It isn't prodigy, it's circumstance. Edited by superperfectnerd, Mar 8 2018, 09:35 PM.
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| Arkadom | Mar 8 2018, 09:47 PM Post #40 |
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Bargle nawdle zouss
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I feel like that's almost entirely the point I've been making the entire time. It doesn't matter if Goku or Vegeta are related to past heroes because they already did this stuff of their own volition and power, and even still they both got most of their power given to them through zenkai or circumstance, it makes no difference at all because it won't have changed the circumstances or the pattern. It would mean that hypothetically Bardock and King Vegeta could have become Super Saiyan gods, but the point is that they didn't. To get picky and upset about the possibilities is pointless when it is not what wound up happening. It's not like Yamoshi possessed Goku to unlock Super Saiyan for him, the entire series still happened as it did and that doesn't change their own individual feats. That would be like saying that a soldier's entire career is not their own success because all of the men in his previous generations were also highly successful soldiers. Edit: Bardock and K.Vegeta may have been powerful by Saiyan standards but in the grand scope of the series they were both massively inferior to the first true main antagonist of their saga, so in regards to plot they were weak. Edited by Arkadom, Mar 8 2018, 09:48 PM.
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| superperfectnerd | Mar 8 2018, 10:12 PM Post #41 |
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"Soldiers" isn't a class struggle analogy though. If Yamoshi turns out to be an ancestor or direct lineage to Goku, it's more like generations passing down wealth and buying the best education and possibilities for a child for that child to then turn his millions into billions instead of it being a child growing up poor as dirt but managing to grasp an opportunity and prove his stuff. If Goku is a descendant - whether you think it works in real genetics or not - it implies Goku is special by ancestry and is greater than other saiyans. That's precisely why they'd put it in the story and I'm saying if they do that, it's cliche and I think it undermines the character and the whole "even a reject can surpass an elite, if he trains hard enough" dynamic. Because it would imply that Goku IS in fact an elite all along. Edited by superperfectnerd, Mar 8 2018, 10:13 PM.
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| + Son-Goku | Mar 9 2018, 04:14 PM Post #42 |
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孫悟空
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For the saiyans Bardock and King Vegeta were pretty strong. King Vegeta probably barely fought as far as I can tell, so his power barely wavered. Another sign that he barely fought is because of Vegeta's power. He was supposed to be stronger than King Vegeta at that point in time. So his power level was above 10,000 and only went to 18,000 by the time of the Saiyan Arc. He still raised his power more than Goku, but still not very high. However Bardock was a low-class saiyan, his power started in the realm of that of Raditz maybe even weaker. They said that he was constantly coming back from battle near-death and that's why he was getting so strong and soon he would surpass King Vegeta. But compared to Frieza and his top dogs he's nothing, nor are the other saiyans. I don't see the problem with Bardock's story and I don't think it puts a damper on Goku. It was talked about in the Frieza Arc and they played it up nicely in the special. Anyways, Bardock is the best. |
![]() RP Character Bios Dragon Ball Super: The Super Human Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power | |
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| superperfectnerd | Mar 11 2018, 01:40 PM Post #43 |
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Bardock I can handle (except that back in time ssj nonsense) but if Goku turns out to be a descendant of the og ssjg, I'll roll my eyes out of my head. |
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| + Son-Goku | Mar 11 2018, 03:26 PM Post #44 |
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孫悟空
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Yeah, I don't know. I'd be okay with it. I mean, if you think about it he still ended up losing to the evil saiyans. I could see Toriyama doing something about them losing and then they were forced into being low-class saiyans or that's why there were those ranks, although I think that was because of Frieza. Anyways I'd much prefer him to have non-relation to no one or I guess even Vegeta could be fine. Could be Vegeta's direct descendant's brother or something. I definitely want this movie to be about the original ssg/ss since it is the same person like we found out through Toriyama's interview. Yamoshi is his official name. I just want a cool new saiyan design. I don't want him to look like Vegeta or Goku. I've seen a lot of cool saiyan art online and this could really be awesome. What I look forward to the most, is getting him in DBZ video games. Btw here's some legit fan art of the guy. Spoiler: click to toggle
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| Arkadom | Mar 11 2018, 04:23 PM Post #45 |
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Bargle nawdle zouss
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Good lord I hadn't even considered that. I am indeed excited. The movie is meant to come out at the end of this year correct? We should start seeing art within the next month or two hopefully. And as always you can bet Dragon Ball Heroes will give us an early look at his techniques and how he'll look in action. I do agree I want him to have a unique design though, I want the original Saiyans to look quite primal and tribal. Wouldn't at all mind if they had a bit of extra fur besides the tail, and I love that fan art's inclusion of tribal paint, but I think because Yamoshi is meant to be the hero he'll look a little softer and more pleasant while the enemy Saiyans will look more akin to that fan art. This does make me hope that we get some big bad Saiyan to be Yamoshi's opposite though, could open up some great opportunities for some unique techniques, and I hope that the villain becomes playable just like Yamoshi. This also means we could finally see SSJ vs great ape, as I don't imagine the villain will also get SSJ. Though I would be fine with them repurposing SSJ4 as an alternative form to SSJ1 so we can get that awesome design in the current canon. |
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