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You guys will drive yourselves crazy trying to make sense of Super's power levels
Topic Started: Dec 11 2017, 01:47 AM (2,876 Views)
superperfectnerd
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The problem is that if base Goku absorbed the power of ssjg and has gotten much stronger since, then Krillin shouldn't be able to do a single thing against base Goku. Ssj3 Gotenks couldn't move a weaker base Vegeta. Couldn't scratch him at all.

Super has kind of retroactively explained the androids, they're bio-enhanced humans and as we've seen in Krillin, Yamcha and Tenshinhan and now...Roshi, humans can get pretty damn strong wvwn back in Z when they far eclipsed any saiyan from Planet Vegeta. Also, if their DNA has been enhanced is it farfetched to think 17 and 18 have been enhanced with genetics from Goku, Vegeta and Freeza themselves and Cell was a version of this made from scratch? Which is why he needed them for completion? A bit headcanony but yeah, even the androids aren't as out there as these guys strolling up and surpassing ssjg and everybody acting like it's the most normal thing in the world. At least with the androids everyone was like "stronger than Freeza? You're having a laugh mate" at first. Nobody is exclaiming "f***ing hell Piccolo and this small puny boy are stronger than Goku was as a ssjg! That is f***ing mental...no I mean really mental...am I high again?"
Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 12 2017, 01:13 AM.
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StrenuousSpider
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superperfectnerd
Dec 12 2017, 01:10 AM
The problem is that if base Goku absorbed the power of ssjg and has gotten much stronger since, then Krillin shouldn't be able to do a single thing against base Goku. Ssj3 Gotenks couldn't move a weaker base Vegeta. Couldn't scratch him at all.

Super has kind of retroactively explained the androids, they're bio-enhanced humans and as we've seen in Krillin, Yamcha and Tenshinhan and now...Roshi, humans can get pretty damn strong wvwn back in Z when they far eclipsed any saiyan from Planet Vegeta. Also, if their DNA has been enhanced is it farfetched to think 17 and 18 have been enhanced with genetics from Goku, Vegeta and Freeza themselves and Cell was a version of this made from scratch? Which is why he needed them for completion? A bit headcanony but yeah, even the androids aren't as out there as these guys strolling up and surpassing ssjg and everybody acting like it's the most normal thing in the world. At least with the androids everyone was like "stronger than Freeza? You're having a laugh mate" at first. Nobody is exclaiming "f***ing hell Piccolo and this small puny boy are stronger than Goku was as a ssjg! That is f***ing mental...no I mean really mental...am I high again?"
I usually go with the android parts are a multiplier. So we can say 17 and 18 when taken by gero was like a 5 for 17 and 3 for 18. And the multiplier for them to be way above freiza is huge. So if there human side is 5 and the android side makes them well into the 100s of millions. now Imagine if they managed to get there human side to the level of power base goku was in buu saga and add the android multiplier to that. It would most certainly explain 17s power and 18 as well. This is how i see it.my own head canon.

But i do like the idea that they are genetically enhanced with the same dna that makes up cell. It would explain wht he needs to absorb them because he could not absorb 16 so he cant absorb robots. Because to be honest what parts of 17 and 18 are robotic. All i know is 18 had a bomb in her chest at one point but that is not proof that they have robot limbs or anything. The only thing that i can see is the generator thing. But anyway it is interesting to think they are like beta versions test versions of cell. Used them to perfect cell.
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Dear Leader
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I started reading the manga. Holy crap. It's actually incredibly better. It gets straight to the good stuff and the powerscaling is way more consistent. I'm already caught up and waiting for the next chapter. So I'd like to make it clear that my original post was referring to the anime adaptation and not the manga.

Like I said earlier, Super itself has so many cool concepts, but the anime made it look awful with its constant filler, endless talking and the "WTF" moments that threw powerscaling out the window.

Toyotarou didn't pay me to say this, by the way. *trips over bucket full of money* :p
Edited by Dear Leader, Dec 14 2017, 02:06 AM.
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People discussing about everyone else while Roshi gets away with being in U7's Top 10 Strongest.
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Hebrew Wolfman
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Super "saves" TOO MUCH DETAILS about their placement of people's power levels, and are also pretty inconsistent about their own power scaling.

At least the line of Beerus using 70% of his power against SSG Goku was changed, it wouldn't be possible since we know Goku and Vegeta are still leagues beneath Beerus and Whis as the series stands now (over 2 years since Beerus and Whis made their debut in the heroes' lives IN-UNIVERSE).

Take the case of Frieza, Tagoma and Shisami in Resurrection 'F' movie/arc - the tyrant was revived rusty in his first form (therefore weaker than his THEN prime state of 530,000), yet it only took him to "train" for 4 months to reach a level beyond Super Sayian Blue (Golden Frieza's full stamina, not to mention his first form could kill REALLY RUSTY SSJ Gohan and Piccolo with no real effort) - WHAT KIND OF TRAINING DID HE DO? WHAT WAS SO HARD TO SHOW US? Even if King Cold's youngest is a "prodigy" the staff should spread it as scenes over a few (2-3) slice of life episodes, I don't care, as long as I can feel his progress like I felt with Goku on his way to Namek. Tagoma and Shisami both went from Zarbon (23,000) and Dodoria's (22,000) tier to the level over Super Namekian Piccolo (rusty or not, due to neglecting his training to help Gohan and Videl, I bet he can still kill a Cell Jr. or two with no doubt) BY DOING WHAT EXACTLY? BEING SHOT THROUGH THEIR LIMBS ABOUT A MINUTE OR TWO ONCE A DAY (AS FRIEZA'S POWER LEVEL IS TOO HIGH FOR THEM TO SUSTAIN TOO LONG)? THAT IS BULLCRAP AND UTTERLY STUPID.

Don't even get me complain about the Master Roshi BS power up to the level he's right now at (being able to take out the likes of Ganos was PURE CRAP, not to mention Tien in episode 88), he shouldn't be able to take out the likes of Nappa even if he was training since the Buu Saga (since in DBZ he was implied to be long retired). Yamcha and Chiaotzu were more worthy contestants to kick Frieza's soldiers than him or Jaco (who got in for PR for merchandise purposes) IMHO.

It's stupid all the Universe 6 characters could stand up to GODLY KI ABSORBED Goku and Vegeta as they did, but hey - the plot requires this. I mostly got the anti vibes (due to love watching characters develop to those levels over decades of training and harsh situations/battles) towards the U6 Sayians who despite being peaceful race have AT LEAST 3 members who can go toe to toe with Sayians with God Ki. Even the weakest universe, 9, had most of it's members on the level where Goku and Vegeta needed to channel to SSB to defeat them as SSJ didn't worked.

I can see base Vegeta (with God Ki and 3 years of training for the Universe 6 Tournament and beyond that to keep himself on track with Goku and Beerus) being stronger than Buu Saga SSJ 3 Gotenks (DAMN TOEI, Trunks and Goten - besides being neglected and minimized to the level of "careless cocky kids who can cause more harm than help in battles" - were afraid to stand up to a Raditz-tier gangsters led by Gryll who himself probably would've died against Namek Saga Captain Ginyu), to make him somewhat able to stand against Beerus (as shown in the DBS manga later on), but then it puts the entire list of Z top guns as jokes in comparison to the likes of Zamasu who according to the manga is somewhat SSJ 2 Goku's level, who by then is MUCH MUCH weaker than Hit (who himself is on Dyspo's tier, and he couldn't EVEN defeat that U11 monster alien, Aragney, by his own). But the Zeno Exhibition Match & Tournament of Power showed us the good fat Majin Buu is still a force to be reckoned with as he was in the end of DBZ, as long as it comes to the non-god ki mortals.

Gohan's going from a nerdy lameo in RoF to somewhat strong again within a year against Watagash controlled Barry Kahn (could have killed him with the finishing Kamehameha as a SSJ but decided not to) and later against his father in the Son family's radishes field is something I supported. I also enjoyed his return to his Mystic/Ultimate Prime, and I liked seeing that it was still something to reckoned with, even if you were SSB Goku using Kaioken. His progress within 48 hours from his battle against Lavender who is arguably at Super Buu level to the point he's at right now (almost SSB tier) is somewhat logical as we always knew he had much more potential than his father and the prince of all Sayians (who also admitted it back on episode 30). Piccolo was finally shown some respect and was treated with a nice power up from being Tagoma's punching bag to the point he can overpower SSJ 2 Gohan who is without any doubt stronger than Perfect Cell/Dabura-tier.

The only one who got a serious treatment of explaining his power boost was Krillin who went so rusty since the battle against Frieza a year prior to the point his body could barely block bullets (even the ~100 power level guys from DB could stand those) and then after a day that included a bad sparring match with Goku and regaining his fighting spirit in the forest of illusions he went to the point he's OBVIOUSLY stronger than Namek era 100% Final Form Frieza and SSJ Goku. And we all saw how awful he did/got treated in the ToP.

Toppo is much more powerful and enjoyable in the DBS Manga than in the anime, so I'm still optimistic about him. Jiren - besides being dull in the anime - is OP as of now.

Golden Frieza's power level keeps on jumping ridiculously just in order to keep Frieza in the game so he'll be salable (merchandise = $$$$). Same goes to Android 17 who by simply protecting wildlife across the Earth as his job GREW INCREDIBLY STRONGER, to the point he got jerked in the anime where Goku examined his power with SSB (don't give me the Krillin sparring match excuse, SSJ 2 Goku at that time would have been more than enough for Krillin, unless Goku was using a fracture of his SSB power to examine Krillin's strategy breaking point - Goku should've went SSJ 3 against 17 at best). Brianne de Chateau/Ribrianne was shown to handle/to put a fight to the likes of SSJ Vegeta, Android 17 and even a tired [!] SSB Goku YET her most powerful form (that should be around SSB-tier considering the amount of energy she needed to pull the transformation off) was taken out in an instant when Android 18, whose role in the series was minimized to a house wife/mother and who was never stated to grow stronger since the Buu Saga, threw a punch at her face.

Edit: Most of the Tournament of Power contestants would probably be defeated by Super Buu and Kid Buu WITHOUT BREAKING A SWEAT, some are probably at the Cell Games Z-Fighters' level, it's simply an OVER HYPED arc that is just the background for Ultra Instinct Goku vs. Jiren.
Edited by Hebrew Wolfman, Dec 15 2017, 08:00 AM.
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Click here if you think that Yamcha and Chiaotzu needed to fight in Resurrection 'F'
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Mike XL
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Dagon
Dec 11 2017, 04:19 AM
Dear Leader
Dec 11 2017, 01:47 AM
The series is filled with "cool"/dramatic moments that make no sense powerscaling wise and therefore make it impossible to form a coherent a > b > c chain. Here's an example: SSj3 Gotenks jobbing to that clone of Base Vegeta early in the series.
Base Vegeta tanking SSJ3 Gotenks is entirely consistent with the writing up until that point because it was made very clear that Goku absorbed and surpassed the SSJG power, and Vegeta is practically equal with Goku at that time with all of Whis' training. Base Vegeta/Goku>BoG SSJG Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks
That doesn't make sense when you see guys like 17 and Piccolo being able to fight with guys Vegeta and Goku have to go SSJ to fight. When did Piccolo or 17 get as strong as SSG+ a 50 times multiplier? It doesn't even make sense. I view that copy fight like the Arale stuff, just filler to pass time.

If you view the Saiyan beyond God stuff as stuff that got retconned, if makes making power levels in Super a lot easier.
Edited by Mike XL, Dec 15 2017, 09:18 PM.
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Kblo247
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18 did make the comment of I'm strogner than you guys when she heard Frieza was coming. She volunteered to fight and Krillin said no you don't have to. OF course Krillin thinks Buu is coming in Super and the movie, and he freaks when he realizes he isn't there. I took 18's statement as her literally saying she thinks shes stronger than most of them or close enough to rusty Gohan that her fighting would be a huge help. I also took Krillin's statements and reaction to mean they would be alright iwht Buu leading the way.

Fast forward and we have Roshi saying 18 can save Krillin and Goku from the forest. We have Krillin surpassing his limits in the forest and 18 still being called stronger than him. We have 18 knowing of his attacks, his training, and the neighbors saying they fight on the lawn all the time. 18 has did something since Beerus dropped her a*** too
Edited by Kblo247, Dec 15 2017, 10:22 PM.
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superperfectnerd
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18 getting beyond ssjg sparring Krillin on her front lawn makes Goku and Vegeta look like chumps. I just don't buy that's where she's at, beyond a base saiyan who is much stronger than a ssjg Goku was against Beerus.

How has this power inconsistency happened in a continuation after GT came and ended? Wasn't power w***ing one of the big complaints about GT and yet here we are in Super and it's even worse.
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Kblo247
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superperfectnerd
Dec 16 2017, 05:00 AM
18 getting beyond ssjg sparring Krillin on her front lawn makes Goku and Vegeta look like chumps. I just don't buy that's where she's at, beyond a base saiyan who is much stronger than a ssjg Goku was against Beerus.

How has this power inconsistency happened in a continuation after GT came and ended? Wasn't power w***ing one of the big complaints about GT and yet here we are in Super and it's even worse.
I'm just saying I think in Goku's mind and based upon the past we get the following.

Buu is slated as the strongest or potential to be the strongest after Goku/Vegeta since Buu is the first person Goku picks to fight in the Champa tournament and in the manga for Universal Survival too. Krillin's reaction to him not being there to confront Frieza makes me think he trumps Gohan and Gotenks too.

18 calls herself stronger than those guys. We gets statements by Roshi that she can save Krillin and Goku if she goes too. We get Goku stating even though Krillin has improved, surpassed his own limits, and has been training with him in the anime off screen, thus him knowing about kaioken x20 that 18 is still even stronger. We also have 18 commenting in the past that its hard to hold back, she ttries, but it is hard like with the punch machine and with the guy she and whis think she kills in the ToP

Goku trusts Piccolo to whoop Gohan into shape in the anime, but he also treats him like a joke like when he comments on his chances vs Frost. We see Piccolo improved from weaker than base to choke out a ssj2 level.

Gohan isn't even thought about in either medium. Vegeta tells him in the anime to get Gohan to fight. In the manga its Vegeta who brings Gohan up for both tournaments. HE has greater potential than Piccolo but hasn't gotten back to his old strength, let alone surpassed it like he later does.

We have hit the Krillin nod before, and it's telling that even though Gohan in the anime thinks Krillin is retired and hasn't trained or fought since Frieza that he is his pick over Goten and Trunks automatically.

We seem to get that from the main fighting pool that Buu, Piccolo, 18, Gohan, and Krillin are the next in the main food chain before 17 and Frieza returned.
Edited by Kblo247, Dec 16 2017, 12:27 PM.
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Kblo247
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Mike XL
Dec 15 2017, 09:17 PM
Dagon
Dec 11 2017, 04:19 AM
Dear Leader
Dec 11 2017, 01:47 AM
The series is filled with "cool"/dramatic moments that make no sense powerscaling wise and therefore make it impossible to form a coherent a > b > c chain. Here's an example: SSj3 Gotenks jobbing to that clone of Base Vegeta early in the series.
Base Vegeta tanking SSJ3 Gotenks is entirely consistent with the writing up until that point because it was made very clear that Goku absorbed and surpassed the SSJG power, and Vegeta is practically equal with Goku at that time with all of Whis' training. Base Vegeta/Goku>BoG SSJG Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks
That doesn't make sense when you see guys like 17 and Piccolo being able to fight with guys Vegeta and Goku have to go SSJ to fight. When did Piccolo or 17 get as strong as SSG+ a 50 times multiplier? It doesn't even make sense. I view that copy fight like the Arale stuff, just filler to pass time.

If you view the Saiyan beyond God stuff as stuff that got retconned, if makes making power levels in Super a lot easier.
What about Gohan as a ssj being filled with holes by first form Frieza? Goku still traded blows with final form Frieza in the anime and movie without transforming at all and Vegeta threatens both
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