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| So how strong is piccolo as to right now?; How much stronger is piccolo compared to his cell games self? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 7 2017, 09:42 AM (14,257 Views) | |
| + Pyrus | Dec 15 2017, 07:05 AM Post #61 |
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Doesn't Vegeta tank an angry punch to the face from Cabba when they're both Super Saiyans? I didn't actually watch their anime fight (or most of that s***ty tournament) so I don't know for sure. Just heard it happened. |
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| Mike XL | Dec 15 2017, 09:13 PM Post #62 |
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About equal to SSJ 2 Goku and Vegeta. This is how I have the Universe 7 fighters and how they stack up to Goku and Vegeta: Freeza: Final Form- SSJ 3 Goku tier, Golden Form- Equal to 100% SSB Gohan: Base- In between the humans and Base Goku/Vegeta, Ultimate Form- Equal to SSG Goku 17: Equal to SSJ 3 Goku Piccolo: Equal to SSJ 2 Goku and Vegeta 18- In between the Base Saiyans and SSJ 1 Tenshinhan/Krillen- About 30,000,000, or the equivalent to 25% of Max Freeza from the Freeza arc in Z Roshi- About 15,000,000, about 50% of Krillen and Tenshinhan. |
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| Kblo247 | Dec 15 2017, 10:24 PM Post #63 |
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He takes it full on. HE lets Cabba punch him in the forehead and jsut smiles his a*** off, same with the energy blast spam. They weren't equal there at all. |
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| superperfectnerd | Dec 16 2017, 04:55 AM Post #64 |
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Final form Frost is above base Goku and however weakened he is later on in his true form, he still is eager to fight Vegeta. Piccolo needs to be incredibly strong to keep up with even a tired character who is above ssjg Goku. Freeza in his beaten up state could prevent any of the cast other than Vegeta getting close with a simple wave of his hand. ssjg Goku (BOG < base Goku ROF < base Goku tournament < third form Frost < Piccolo < tired true form Frost < true form Frost That is ridiculous. Multiple characters state that Vegeta and Cabba are equal in base and nobody says anything about Vegeta holding back, they are surprised Cabba can do this. Then as ssjs Vegeta tanks his hit. There's two points we could take from this and one of them is that statements <<< feats, in which case the more recent material feats heavily suggest base saiyans aren't god tier anymore or that a new ssj without control can't put out as much power as a mastered ssj. |
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| Kblo247 | Dec 16 2017, 12:14 PM Post #65 |
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I take from it that all multipliers or super saiyan forms aren't equal. Toriyama made the statement ssj was the correct form, better than 2 or 3, which are better than assj or ussj. They all branch from the same tree. Vegeta in super has made it a damn point to only use Base, SSJ, Blue. HE doesn't fiddle around with his ssj2 anymore. It's like how he never went and focused on 3 but kept improving 2. In the process of him focusing on 2, he eventually beat Goku's 3 in the Super anime, and in the extended cut of the movie he does better than Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks before the rage. I think Vegeta seeing Goku fight in his ssj state after god wore off decides to focus solely on ssj itself. HEck even in the Cabba stuff, he spends his time telling Cabba you go base, then ssj, and then blue with training. This is a direct contrast to what Goku shows Caulifula and KAle as he spends time teaching ssj, showing ssj3, showing god and the like. Goku and Vegeta have different methods. Vegeta has truly perfected his ssj in the anime. Goku however has over pwoered the f*** out of his ssj2 form |
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| Bad User | Dec 18 2017, 12:31 PM Post #66 |
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I stumbled upon this dude on YT that was pissed off at ep. 119, and it got me thinking. Piccolo and Android 17 should be the same tier. Even if it means lifting Piccolo up and lowering 17 down. When they had their big fight, back then in the Cell saga, they looked like they were in the same league. After that, during the 7 peaceful years that followed, I think that neither of them did any effective training at all. Why? Piccolo - it's pretty much obvious, although it's utterly stupid having someone whose life consists 50% of training and travels the whole world to lift heavy s*** with his mind, do nothing at all, but can't argue with facts. Android 17 - he appears to make crazy gains in short time with only basic training; so, if he had trained at all, I doubt he would have just sat around waiting for Buu to turn him into a robo-croissant. Seeing how he progressed in Super, if he did the same thing back then, he'd have easily roflstomped Buu. I wish that saga wasn't canon, but can't afford that luxury. Now, let's arrive to the Destroyers' Tournament. Piccolo was chosen before 17, doesn't this make it a stupid In the meantime, and up to this very point, it is implied that they did train. Piccolo has 'trained while Gohan was doing all his studies and researches', although he is shown to do a lot of babysitting business or helping Gohan with some house chores (I really hate how they turned The Demon King into some domestic, third spouse of that household but whatever). Android 17 has trained too, in his, um, natural reservation, but he did. Yet he turned from a cyborg park ranger into SSJ God tier. Piccolo turned from an ordinary nanny into...a green, stronger Mrs. Doubtire? He may have lower raw power than other species, but he always compensated for it with tactics. He is supposed to be one of the most intelligent strategists (yet he competes with Goku in making some of the dumbest decisions), has flexible limbs (yet he forgot about them when he fell out), has perfect hearing (yet he forgot about it when he didn't hear the bug) and good special attacks (I bet he'd have K.O.-ed Frost if he wasn't stung), but for some reason he's been dumbed down. Just like other characters that have useful techniques but, for some reason, won't use them (Taiyoken, Kienzan anyone?). So, my conclusion as to how it should be, is: 1. 17 not SSJ God level, 2. Piccolo not knocked out by a freakin' cockroach, 3. Piccolo = 17. |
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| Kblo247 | Dec 19 2017, 01:41 AM Post #67 |
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Why should 17 be limited to Piccolo? In their future a weaker 17 was better than a weaker Piccolo. When they meet and Piccolo has trained for 3 years, 17 is still better. And at best they were close after the Kami merger with 17 lacking punching power and Piccolo using up his stamina. 17 is naturally superior to Piccolo. Heck I would argue 17 is a better fighter than Piccolo overall as Piccolo has not won a fight on his own in Z, up until Super came. Piccolo didn't beat Raditz NAppa killed Piccolo after schooling him Piccolo got blitzed after letting Frieza transform He let Gero escape 17 bodied him when they first meet Cell escapes from him He fights 17 to a stalemate but lures Cell there only for Cell to leave him for dead He struggles with a Cell Jr He quits at Shin He gets absorbed by Buu Beerus is well Beerus Vegeta saves him from pissing off Whis Tagoma humiliates him He gets killed by first form Frieza He gets tricked by Frost and then punked into quitting by Vegeta Literally the last fight Piccolo won on his own merit outside the movies which made him look like a badass was way back at the last budokai to end dragonball. He doesn't win anything straight up to he beats around Gohan in Super. And you want 17 to equal that? |
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| Muyasuki | Dec 19 2017, 02:13 AM Post #68 |
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I think Piccolo and 17 are more or less on the same level ... in-between SSJ2 and SSJ3 serious Goku. |
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| PocketGod | Dec 19 2017, 02:20 AM Post #69 |
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Well he's comparable to base ToP Gohan who's weaker than Bolla(I think that's his name, I'm talking about the robot with the stretching arms) who is weaker than base Caulifla. So he's pretty irrelevant. |
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| superperfectnerd | Dec 20 2017, 01:35 AM Post #70 |
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Irrelevant but can still sneeze Super Vegetto from Z out of existence if Goku is still Godku in base apparently. I just can't see that being where all of these fighters are. Remember before the last few months Boohan and Super Vegetto were the best of the est for unverse 7, they were an end game powerlevel. How come every other universe has presumably had fighters casually above that forever? Vegetto and Boohan were presumaby the strongest mortals to ever grace universe 7, they're our story's final viallins of Z and yet...Cabba can fight Vegeta beyond god Goku and also still be green? Please. Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 20 2017, 01:38 AM.
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| PocketGod | Dec 20 2017, 03:00 AM Post #71 |
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The fact that Goku and Vegeta still need to use SSJ against characters(Trio De Dangers) that are below Mr Buu kind of says otherwise, doesn't it? |
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| superperfectnerd | Dec 20 2017, 03:10 AM Post #72 |
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Agreed, that's one of the counter arguments against base Godku and evidence for either two bases or a power retcon however other people believe either Basil and Mr Boo are somehow stronger than Super Vegetto or Goku uses a tiny, tiny fraction of his power in base and ssj or whatever form he's in and it was really only Bergamo that required an effort. However Basil and Lavender seem pretty pointless if Bergamo is thousands of times stronger than them, I don't think that's ever implied. |
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| Amerson26 | Dec 20 2017, 04:35 PM Post #73 |
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Yeah there's no way Goku and vegeta base is strong as people think. In fact I think that's the main reason power scaling is mess up because of Goku and vegeta base forum. And for people like mr boo and cabba to be strong as or stronger then boohuh they really haven't showed it. |
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| Saiyan36 | Dec 20 2017, 10:31 PM Post #74 |
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The concept of a retcon stands to reason at this point as the 'best' explaination. Because there is none better in my view. But even with the power retcon taken into consideration, some battles in Super make me scratching behind my ears. Considering the fact base form Saiyans grow stronger after each training and hard battle, certainly if we'd consider the spiritual training with Whis and limit-breaking BOG-battle, we are witnessing a strange base or SSJ1/2 Goku/Vegeta relationship towards much younger and untrained Saiyans from other Universes or Freeza-looking creatures that have no golden form and logically would rather represent a DBZ Freeza-power-setup. |
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| superperfectnerd | Dec 20 2017, 11:56 PM Post #75 |
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I just see Whis' training as mainly about developing a connection to god ki and learning ssjb as well as moving towards UI, rather than a massive boost to their base forms, which are already incredible for a saiyan's base power. Base Boo saga = 120,000,000 Base TOP = 1,250,000,000 Much stronger but not god level in base anymore. Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 20 2017, 11:58 PM.
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