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So how strong is piccolo as to right now?; How much stronger is piccolo compared to his cell games self?
Topic Started: Dec 7 2017, 09:42 AM (14,259 Views)
Dagon
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superperfectnerd
Dec 12 2017, 03:00 AM
What's the point in God level if Boo could have gotten there any time he wanted in 2 hours? Super Boo could have trained for half an hour befre fighting Gotenks and flattened him. The show now has so many writers, feats like this are just PIS and before the tournament starts we see Boo again asleep and he's all fat. Fit Boo feels like filler.
You can't disregard a scene or episode as "filler" in DBS because DBS technically has no filler. Besides, how do we know that Goku was going 100% in all his pre-tournament recruiting battles? One of the writers of DBS, which I have quoted before, said he thinks Goku was turning blue against some of his opponents to motivate them rather than to outright defeat them. Of course Goku could defeat anyone he tries to recruit, but that's not the point. The point of the recruitment was to see how well they do against someone that outclasses them, because that's what would happen in the tournament. Any time that you think it looks like Goku is weaker than "post-god absorption-ness," it's just Goku not going all out. That's all it is, Goku doesn't use 100% strength right off the bat against almost any opponent.
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superperfectnerd
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But these levels of holding back are absolutely, staggeringly stupid. I'd prefer to think the power levels of the movies (and arcs they correspond to) are no longer the case and the anime has basically the same levels as the manga, which had no ROF arc remember and that's why as soon as the new material appeared everything is so convoluted because all these different writers actually don't know where anyone is on the scale. It's the same in comics, one minute Superman can fight near kryptomite and is just weakened, another writer in another issue and he can't move at all and nearly dies. It's just considered PIS.

Goku would need to be using like 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001% of his godly base against Krillin for it to make any sense whatsoever...or Goku just has his regular base and Krillin isn't as far behind the saiyans as he used to be.
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Considering Krillin was stated to have surpassed his limits in that spooky forest, and the experience wasn't really for Goku's benefit, it makes sense for him to close the gap on the Base Saiyans, however slightly. But only if you're going SPN's route.
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Dagon
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superperfectnerd
Dec 13 2017, 01:50 AM
But these levels of holding back are absolutely, staggeringly stupid. I'd prefer to think the power levels of the movies (and arcs they correspond to) are no longer the case and the anime has basically the same levels as the manga, which had no ROF arc remember and that's why as soon as the new material appeared everything is so convoluted because all these different writers actually don't know where anyone is on the scale. It's the same in comics, one minute Superman can fight near kryptomite and is just weakened, another writer in another issue and he can't move at all and nearly dies. It's just considered PIS.

Goku would need to be using like 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001% of his godly base against Krillin for it to make any sense whatsoever...or Goku just has his regular base and Krillin isn't as far behind the saiyans as he used to be.
One of the writer's opinion on the matter is that he thinks Goku turned Blue to motivate Krillin. He's seeing the extent of Krillin's skills against a powerful opponent. Of course Goku could finger-flick Krillin into the next galaxy, but that's not the point of what Goku's trying to do.

Different writers make for inconsistencies, sure, but if you just hang on and wait for future episodes to clear up any questionable scenes, it will make sense. You can't just ignore what you like and dislike about the anime and try to treat the power scale from the manga and anime as the same thing. If you don't like the power scaling of the anime, that is PERFECTLY FINE. You just have to realize that the anime and manga are different from each other. You can have your "more consistent" power scale, but keep it to the manga. See each version of DBS for what it is and don't try to cross the streams in a convoluted way to make yourself feel better about it. I don't try to apply anime logic to the manga, or vice versa.

I always try to clarify when I'm talking about either one because I see each of them as separate. Once you treat each of them separately then you will enjoy the series a lot more because you won't be trying to bend your mind over backwards trying to cram both contradictory series into one headcanon.
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What do you make of Goku seemingly being forced to use Super Saiyan 1 against Krillin on the rooftop? If he was holding back hundredths or so of his power, why go to that level when he could simply up his power without transforming at all?
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Kblo247
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Pyrus
Dec 13 2017, 06:34 AM
What do you make of Goku seemingly being forced to use Super Saiyan 1 against Krillin on the rooftop? If he was holding back hundredths or so of his power, why go to that level when he could simply up his power without transforming at all?
Well to be fair the Krillin stuff has a different connotation than most. Krillin and Goku are implied to have trained together off screen since the forest, even if they hadn't went that serious at one another like in the recruitment episode. Goku tells GOhan that Krillin will be fine and exceed the mental image trainign of him vs Basil, which is what Gohan expects from a non-training Krillin. Goku says Krillin has been training and will be fine. Krillin beats Gohan, yes he took a punch from base Gohan, but he had no cosmetic damage done to himself at all or no sign of drained stamina. Then he forced Goku to go ssj as was seen so Goku could stop from being ringed out. Goku later tells 17 that Krillin has improved from the Cell saga when he last saw him.

The greatest sign that Krillin and Goku have trained together off panel is the narration Krillin gives vs Jiren. Krillin says Goku is testing himself and narrating every level. But then later on we have Krillin saying what no one else knows, Goku can handle Blue Kaioken x20 when he couldn't even handle x10 before.

We also have statements by the neighbors and 18. 18 talks about all that home gym stuff. The neighbors say this happens all the time with Krillin and 18 sparring in the front lawn. We are basically told 18 is better than Krillin but Krillin has improved. HEck Krillin keeps up with an opponent that made 18 grimace from a blow in the ToP.

Krillin is closer to the base saiyans than any other human imo. He's close to his wife, and by the way things look, his wife is close to Piccolo who has improved. Heck Gohan had Krillin on his list even with the idea of him being retired, as he was Gohans initial 6th man, which goes back to KRillin in RoF not even being struck by a Frieza goon, dropping the most bodies, and being the only one in the group to not take a senzu.
Edited by Kblo247, Dec 13 2017, 12:01 PM.
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Dagon
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Pyrus
Dec 13 2017, 06:34 AM
What do you make of Goku seemingly being forced to use Super Saiyan 1 against Krillin on the rooftop? If he was holding back hundredths or so of his power, why go to that level when he could simply up his power without transforming at all?
Krillin has gotten stronger by a currently unknown/unquantifiable amount. Would PROBABLY be weaker than base Goku still. Goku transforming is, as one of the writers said, most likely Goku trying to motivate Krillin to pull out all the stops against a much more powerful opponent to see what Krillin is made of and has up his sleeve.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

He wasn't fighting a much stronger opponent though because apparently Goku was suppressing. Krillin isn't getting the full sense of what it'd be like to fight strong opponents in the ToP because Goku isn't completely outmatching and overpowering him.
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Kblo247
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Yu Narukami
Dec 13 2017, 01:33 PM
He wasn't fighting a much stronger opponent though because apparently Goku was suppressing. Krillin isn't getting the full sense of what it'd be like to fight strong opponents in the ToP because Goku isn't completely outmatching and overpowering him.
Well to be fair have we seen goku be able to overwhelm anyone in his base or first level? I’m talking just in super here. I mean we see Vegeta use level one almost exclusively but Goku hasn’t beaten down anyone besides some U9 moons with that first level.

He gets pushed back in his base by Krillin and has to go super. Krillin hides from him to he hears him and he ups the level.

Fit Buu beats base Goku. Buu is holding back as well because Satan tells him no killing or anything so we know he’s holding back while playing. Goku gets out smarted and screams ow ow multiple times.

We see 17 overwhelm ssj Goku at the gritstone level to he jumps to blue and says he didn’t mean to use that level of power.

It’s Gokus ssj2 that is his measuring stick and the tricky thing in super. Goku tests Future Trunks with ssj2. He tests and bests Zamasu with ssj2. He uses ssj2 vs Caulifla and Kale to they both are on his level and he by sheer reflex goes three and hen later on God to win. Goku fought ultimate Gohan as a ssj2 and he doubled Gohan up on his hit count long before going blue. Goku even uses ssj2 to fight Black.

The narrative to me is that yes he is stronger now but his base and first level of ssj aren’t impressive. They aren’t even Vegeta impressive as that’s all he used to clear the champa tourney. Super seems to write the narrative as ssj2 being Gokus go to before going blue. I think Krillin can easily comprehend base Goku and keep up with him. Just like I think Buu and 18 can give ssj goku pause.
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superperfectnerd
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Base Goku is stronger than ssjg and Krillin can keep up with that? No thanks. That breaks my ability to suspend my disbelief more than just applying the two base theory.

Why does Goku need ssj when his base is above ssjg? Surely Krillin, fighting that and knowing that would be enough of a tester?
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Saiyan36
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superperfectnerd
Dec 13 2017, 07:12 PM
Base Goku is stronger than ssjg and Krillin can keep up with that? No thanks. That breaks my ability to suspend my disbelief more than just applying the two base theory.

Why does Goku need ssj when his base is above ssjg? Surely Krillin, fighting that and knowing that would be enough of a tester?
What i do think is a surprising concept: Goku carries SSJG 'inside' him. But to obtain the actual transformation, he still needs to fire up just a little more. Not quite the same multiplier as during the ritual, but just a 10-20 times above SSJ3 will do just fine. I personally think this is a rather odd principle. Or you keep SSJG inside Goku (BOG) or you keep it like something that needs to be obtained by a transformation (TOP). Personally i don't think there is much logic behind the combo-package.

Edited by Saiyan36, Dec 13 2017, 09:58 PM.
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Saiyan36
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DP sorry.
Edited by Saiyan36, Dec 13 2017, 08:46 PM.
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I still don't buy it. If Goku was trying to test Krillin's mettle, why would he only go Super Saiyan 1 initially and then go all the way up to Blue? Why not just go right to Blue and put the pressure on? Going Super Saiyan 1 is meaningless if Base is already tens, dozens, hundreds, thousands+ of times stronger than Krillin.
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Kblo247
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superperfectnerd
Dec 13 2017, 07:12 PM
Base Goku is stronger than ssjg and Krillin can keep up with that? No thanks. That breaks my ability to suspend my disbelief more than just applying the two base theory.

Why does Goku need ssj when his base is above ssjg? Surely Krillin, fighting that and knowing that would be enough of a tester?
Easiest thing to say is Vegeta and Goku reordered everything in the chamber. They brought the levels of gold back in that 3 years. I mean it is weird we have seen Goku use every level, but all we have seen from Vegeta is base, ssj, and blue. He hasn’t even used ssj2, almost as if they are going by he words Toriyama said about ssj being the optimal form after bog over 2, 3, assj, and ultra
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Kblo247
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Pyrus
Dec 13 2017, 10:13 PM
I still don't buy it. If Goku was trying to test Krillin's mettle, why would he only go Super Saiyan 1 initially and then go all the way up to Blue? Why not just go right to Blue and put the pressure on? Going Super Saiyan 1 is meaningless if Base is already tens, dozens, hundreds, thousands+ of times stronger than Krillin.
You also have Gohan and 18 commenting on how the power difference from ssj to blue would be too much for Krillin. They imply Krillin can still find a way to compete vs ssj Goku. They say he has no chance and no gameplan can help vs blue. Krillin talks of the pressure and then digs his heels in. Then we have them go at it and Krillin does what goku did to Zamasu by over amplifying the kamehamheha, Goku broke his arms, Krillin causes his to spasm uncontrollably to push back vs him.

Krillin fights Goku totally different than he did Gohan. He goes all out and uses actual dangerous techniques and says he knows exactly who goku is and what he was facing. He fought him to he pushed goku to transform to overwhelm him. Then we have them basically commenting that Krillin has a shot vs ssj, but none vs blue one on one which goes with goku saying what you go do now?

Krillin is that strong now. Goku tells 17 Krillin has improved. He’s shown blocking multiple blows from 18. Krillin shows no damage from gohan punching him, in fact he’s shown laughing his a*** off a minute later when he evaded gohan, 2 pieces him and wins. Krillin isn’t treated as fodder like Tien nor is he just beat by base like roshi. Lastly you have the comment Krillin made about gohan let’s get hundreds of times stronger together again like they pulled on namek.
Edited by Kblo247, Dec 13 2017, 11:38 PM.
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