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So how strong is piccolo as to right now?; How much stronger is piccolo compared to his cell games self?
Topic Started: Dec 7 2017, 09:42 AM (14,260 Views)
superperfectnerd
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Thiln
Dec 8 2017, 06:01 AM
It's funny. Goku is shown mentally sparring with the three big menaces of DBZ in the very first chapter of Super and he's depicted as being capable of easily defeating them all with one blow in Super Saiyan. According to his words the motivation was to be prepared in the event that a threat of Buu's calibre or worst ever appears; that was before he went off to train at King Kai's.

What can we take away from that scene? Some rustic out in the woods mental sparring is apparently enough to have Goku eclipse Kid Buu in regular Super Saiyan. But somehow Piccolo making strides at Kami's palace with his weighted gear on and scarce oxygen to support his respiratory system is illogical. How does that sound rational to anyone? If anything, I believe Piccolo's training would have been considered more efficient than Goku's at the beginning of Super. People talk about the methodology being important but how do you explain what was mentioned above? Why is Goku labeled the strongest in the universe after having undergone these mental sparring sessions and working a bit in acclimated conditions on King Kai's plaent?

The strongest power related feat we've seen from Piccolo, barring the Special Beam Cannon, involved his Chōbakuretsumaha being resisted by Base Goku. So I guess the appropriate answer would be that he's weaker than the Base Saiyans. It's bothering but clearly Piccolo isn't a priority to the staff at Toei.
I don't take Goku mentally sparring Kid Boo in regular ssj to mean he could beat the real thing as a regular ssj and Gohan, Goten and Trunks are all out of shape, so ssj3 Goku only being a bit stronger than he was can still mean he's the strongest in the universe.

I'm not saying Piccolo hasn't gotten a lot stronger, I'm just saying any of them simply doing the same training they did in the 7 year gap after Cell and making ridiculously large gains, when before they made minimal steps forward - is stupid. Whoever it is doing it, it's stupid.
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Hebrew Wolfman
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I'd say that Piccolo went quite a way since the Buu Saga to DBS:

AGE 774: Piccolo (Buu Saga): 5,000,000,000 [slightly weaker than Super Perfect Cell & Dabura]

AGE 778: Piccolo (Battle of Gods movie/arc): 6,000,000,000

AGE 779: Piccolo (Resurrection 'F' movie/arc - he got weaker due to lack of training): 5,200,000,000
Piccolo (Makankosappo at Shisami - movie only): 7,500,000,000 (missed his target)

Piccolo (training with Gohan after Frieza got killed): 6,200,000,000
Piccolo (vs. Frost): 6,400,000,000
Piccolo (Makankosappo at Frost): 14,600,000,000

AGE 780: Piccolo (Goku Black Arc): 7,800,000,000
Piccolo (Universal Survival Arc - Sparring against Gohan): 9,000,000,000
Piccolo (Universal Survival Arc - FULL POWER): 11,00,000,000 [managed to stand up to SSJ 2 Gohan]
Piccolo (" - sparring with Gohan against Goku and Tien): 11,500,000,000
Piccolo (Tournament of Power - with weighted clothing): 10,500,000,000
Piccolo (ToP - without weighted clothing): 12,100,000,000
Piccolo (ToP - Makankosappo at Saonel and Pirina): 20,550,000,000

AGE 784: Piccolo (watches Goku vs. Uub): 18,000,000,000
Edited by Hebrew Wolfman, Dec 9 2017, 12:11 PM.
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Dagon
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Regardless of where Piccolo was in the past, Piccolo would, as of episode 89, be stronger than SSJ2 Gohan and weaker than Ultimate Gohan(in the Buu arc). Current Piccolo may be moderately stronger than that but I don't think he could make a 10 billion fold increase in 4 hours to catch up to Blue Goku.

Evidence suggests Piccolo was probably weaker than Buu arc base Saiyans.

Piccolo admits Supreme Kaioshin is stronger than him.

Supreme Kai can't lift the Z Sword.

Base Gohan can lift the Z Sword.

(All in Buu arc)Base Gohan>Supreme Kai>Piccolo
Edited by Dagon, Dec 9 2017, 12:06 PM.
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Saiyan36
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17 is engineered to fight. Gohan is the son of Goku and was able to make bigger gains than his father if he really went for it back in Z.
These are two exceptionally skilled fighters we are talking about. That doesn't mean Piccolo has little potential. The other 2 just have exceptional potential.
One could state Piccolo has to put more effort into it and doesn't make the same gains. He's still pretty strong though, ssj2-post-BOG-tier, that's pretty damn strong.
But nowhere as strong than 17 or Gohan. We also musn't forget the biggest gains Piccolo made during Z (during Freeza and Android-Arcs) was by fusing, not by transforming or training like the rest of the gang.
So it was a surprise Piccolo made those gains between ROF and start of the Tournament. On the other hand: from the ROF-arc onwards, Piccolo had actually made more gains than Gohan. Before Gohan re-unlocked his hidden potential. This prooves Piccolo is able to make insane gains as well in a very short period. He just maybe does not have that razor's edge of the utterly gifted.
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Amerson26
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superperfectnerd
Dec 7 2017, 05:17 PM
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Dec 7 2017, 12:03 PM
I believe something like stronger than the Androids, or 17's similar, but weaker than Ultimate Gohan. He was okay against the Namekians, but he knocked them off because Gohan weakened them first. Also, if Gohan didn't take the blast for him, we don't know how well he would've managed. Whereas it barely gave Gohan a few singed fingernails, if. So that's my opinion. Can't be any more technical than that.
One of the writers said he views Gohan and 17 as equal, so Piccolo shouldn't be on 17's level but then each writer has different opinions, which is part of why this is all so inconsistent.

Piccolo Cell Games = 500,000,000

18 current = 100,000,000,000

Piccolo current = 125,000,000,000

Gohan and 17 = 1,875,000,000,000

Ssjb Goku = 10,000,000,000,000 (full power)

Those are my current estimates.
That's the worst I seen. You low ball piccolo hard.
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Amerson26
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superperfectnerd
Dec 7 2017, 08:01 PM
Piccolo has been training since his birth and his power seemingly started to slow in progression after the Cell Games and yet, here we are with him handling a ssj2 Gohan who impressed Goku.

17 having never trained and now having begun to do so making such gains actually makes more sense than Piccolo suddenly getting this strong without any new forms or hidden power unlocks or more fusions or a radically different method of training. Even though it is frustrating that no effort has been made to explain what 17 did, 17 was 'created' with a power level higher than Freeza. 17 and Gohan can push Goku to use god forms, I can't see Piccolo doing that, he's just a bit stronger than Gohan was as a ssj2, nothing implied Piccolo was multiple times stronger than Gohan's ssj2.

The writer mentioned Gohan = 17, Piccolo wasn't suggested to be in that league and the only thing Piccolo could do against the namekian's full power was charge an amped attack far beyond his limits whilst Gohan faced them head on.
But he still traded blows with the big guy when he kneed him and then bumped shoulders. If he was way weaker then I promise you that wouldn't be possible
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Dagon
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Amerson26
Dec 11 2017, 08:31 AM
superperfectnerd
Dec 7 2017, 05:17 PM
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Dec 7 2017, 12:03 PM
I believe something like stronger than the Androids, or 17's similar, but weaker than Ultimate Gohan. He was okay against the Namekians, but he knocked them off because Gohan weakened them first. Also, if Gohan didn't take the blast for him, we don't know how well he would've managed. Whereas it barely gave Gohan a few singed fingernails, if. So that's my opinion. Can't be any more technical than that.
One of the writers said he views Gohan and 17 as equal, so Piccolo shouldn't be on 17's level but then each writer has different opinions, which is part of why this is all so inconsistent.

Piccolo Cell Games = 500,000,000

18 current = 100,000,000,000

Piccolo current = 125,000,000,000

Gohan and 17 = 1,875,000,000,000

Ssjb Goku = 10,000,000,000,000 (full power)

Those are my current estimates.
That's the worst I seen. You low ball piccolo hard.
I think it's not just Piccolo but the whole list is lowballed. Cell games Piccolo at 500 million? That's more like pre-RoSaT Kami-Piccolo, who may perhaps be higher than even that.
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Saiyan36
Dec 9 2017, 01:02 PM
17 is engineered to fight. Gohan is the son of Goku and was able to make bigger gains than his father if he really went for it back in Z.
One may be engineered to fight, but as engineered as he might be, he can't just simply 'mine' power; can't just sit on his a*** all day long and power gathers to him. Otherwise 18 should have grown too, at a similar rate.

Which means he has to train nonetheless or do anything that causes a power growth. But in regards to training, not all sorts are enough. Let's say you go to the gym, do weight lifting, but with weights that are hardly a challenge at all. Say, like, lift 0.5 kg dumbbells. Will it allow you growth in the long run?

And here I am reaching my point - you are naturally skill/engineered/whatever, you do training, but the only way you can actually become stronger is if that training pushes your limits progressively, letting your body stand up to new realms of power.

Or at least that's how I believe it'd be logical to be. Which sends me back to my previous post where I've wondered - besides having a busy schedule, 17 spent most of his time as a park ranger and fought human muggers, so I assume that was the main environment of his training, if not the only one. For one that was already powerful enough to blow the planet to smithereens if he wanted to, how is that enough to help him push past his limits? Did he do 1,000,000 reps of lifting the entire island with his pinkie, day by day? Has he been drinking strength potions that he had found back then at Gero's, regularly?

As for Gohan, I can almost look past his supersonic growth from slenderman to an Asian Hulk Hogan, for one simple reason. Starting with Buu saga, his power seemed to be rather psychically triggered. He had got his inner power first unlocked by Guru, then by the Old Kai and it was enough to allow him a power boost, for which people like Goku, or Vegeta, have to do a lot of physical training. It's like, say, Goku and Vegeta are fighting-type pokemons, whereas Gohan is more of a psychic-type. That's why I almost believe that during his brief training with Piccolo, he helped him go back to his old power and even more, simply by teaching him how to meditate and focus better, besides their usual sparring.
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Saiyan36
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Dec 11 2017, 11:59 AM
Saiyan36
Dec 9 2017, 01:02 PM
17 is engineered to fight. Gohan is the son of Goku and was able to make bigger gains than his father if he really went for it back in Z.
One may be engineered to fight, but as engineered as he might be, he can't just simply 'mine' power; can't just sit on his a*** all day long and power gathers to him. Otherwise 18 should have grown too, at a similar rate.

Which means he has to train nonetheless or do anything that causes a power growth. But in regards to training, not all sorts are enough. Let's say you go to the gym, do weight lifting, but with weights that are hardly a challenge at all. Say, like, lift 0.5 kg dumbbells. Will it allow you growth in the long run?

And here I am reaching my point - you are naturally skill/engineered/whatever, you do training, but the only way you can actually become stronger is if that training pushes your limits progressively, letting your body stand up to new realms of power.

Or at least that's how I believe it'd be logical to be. Which sends me back to my previous post where I've wondered - besides having a busy schedule, 17 spent most of his time as a park ranger and fought human muggers, so I assume that was the main environment of his training, if not the only one. For one that was already powerful enough to blow the planet to smithereens if he wanted to, how is that enough to help him push past his limits? Did he do 1,000,000 reps of lifting the entire island with his pinkie, day by day? Has he been drinking strength potions that he had found back then at Gero's, regularly?

As for Gohan, I can almost look past his supersonic growth from slenderman to an Asian Hulk Hogan, for one simple reason. Starting with Buu saga, his power seemed to be rather psychically triggered. He had got his inner power first unlocked by Guru, then by the Old Kai and it was enough to allow him a power boost, for which people like Goku, or Vegeta, have to do a lot of physical training. It's like, say, Goku and Vegeta are fighting-type pokemons, whereas Gohan is more of a psychic-type. That's why I almost believe that during his brief training with Piccolo, he helped him go back to his old power and even more, simply by teaching him how to meditate and focus better, besides their usual sparring.
I only wanted to point out 17 and Gohan were very strong from the beginning. Kid Gohan had a level in the beginning of Z kid Goku could only dream of in Dragon ball. 17 without training was already SSJ1-tier. These aren't necessarily Super-inconcistencies as such. The gains they all made (Gohan and 17 included) during Super however, that's another cup of tea. It's just another example of 'everyone has to shift with Goku being God-tier in base'-concept. This has less to do with the initial strength / potential of Gohan and 17 in Z.
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superperfectnerd
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Dagon
Dec 11 2017, 09:22 AM
Amerson26
Dec 11 2017, 08:31 AM
superperfectnerd
Dec 7 2017, 05:17 PM
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Dec 7 2017, 12:03 PM
I believe something like stronger than the Androids, or 17's similar, but weaker than Ultimate Gohan. He was okay against the Namekians, but he knocked them off because Gohan weakened them first. Also, if Gohan didn't take the blast for him, we don't know how well he would've managed. Whereas it barely gave Gohan a few singed fingernails, if. So that's my opinion. Can't be any more technical than that.
One of the writers said he views Gohan and 17 as equal, so Piccolo shouldn't be on 17's level but then each writer has different opinions, which is part of why this is all so inconsistent.

Piccolo Cell Games = 500,000,000

18 current = 100,000,000,000

Piccolo current = 125,000,000,000

Gohan and 17 = 1,875,000,000,000

Ssjb Goku = 10,000,000,000,000 (full power)

Those are my current estimates.
That's the worst I seen. You low ball piccolo hard.
I think it's not just Piccolo but the whole list is lowballed. Cell games Piccolo at 500 million? That's more like pre-RoSaT Kami-Piccolo, who may perhaps be higher than even that.
Yeah I like to low ball. I'm not having anyone trading hands with base Goku as beyond ssjg BOG arc. As far as I'm concerned base godku has been retconned.

My logic for Piccolo being 500,000,000 at Cell games is because he needs to be weaker than ssj Vegeta after 1 trip. Piccolo can't outclass Vegeta's one trip as the saiyans are very much the focal point as the only hope to defeta Cell.

Piccolo = 330,000,000
Piccolo post ROSAT = 500,000,000

Vegeta = 5,500,000
ssj = 275,000,000
Post ROSAT trip 1 = 13,000,000
ssj = 650,000,000
assj = 975,000,000

Since this time Vegeta has developed fpssj, ssj2 and then trained with Whis and gotten ssjb.

Piccolo looks the same, hasn't had any new training methods and yet here we are with him suddenly relevant again? I want Piccolo to be relevant...I also want it to make sense as to how he got there because before it seemed like the Namekian was tapping out after the ROSAT.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 11 2017, 06:21 PM.
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Saiyan36
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superperfectnerd
Dec 11 2017, 06:20 PM
Dagon
Dec 11 2017, 09:22 AM
Amerson26
Dec 11 2017, 08:31 AM
superperfectnerd
Dec 7 2017, 05:17 PM
Bad User
Dec 7 2017, 12:03 PM
I believe something like stronger than the Androids, or 17's similar, but weaker than Ultimate Gohan. He was okay against the Namekians, but he knocked them off because Gohan weakened them first. Also, if Gohan didn't take the blast for him, we don't know how well he would've managed. Whereas it barely gave Gohan a few singed fingernails, if. So that's my opinion. Can't be any more technical than that.
One of the writers said he views Gohan and 17 as equal, so Piccolo shouldn't be on 17's level but then each writer has different opinions, which is part of why this is all so inconsistent.

Piccolo Cell Games = 500,000,000

18 current = 100,000,000,000

Piccolo current = 125,000,000,000

Gohan and 17 = 1,875,000,000,000

Ssjb Goku = 10,000,000,000,000 (full power)

Those are my current estimates.
That's the worst I seen. You low ball piccolo hard.
I think it's not just Piccolo but the whole list is lowballed. Cell games Piccolo at 500 million? That's more like pre-RoSaT Kami-Piccolo, who may perhaps be higher than even that.
Yeah I like to low ball. I'm not having anyone trading hands with base Goku as beyond ssjg BOG arc. As far as I'm concerned base godku has been retconned.

My logic for Piccolo being 500,000,000 at Cell games is because he needs to be weaker than ssj Vegeta after 1 trip. Piccolo can't outclass Vegeta's one trip as the saiyans are very much the focal point as the only hope to defeta Cell.

Piccolo = 330,000,000
Piccolo post ROSAT = 500,000,000

Vegeta = 5,500,000
ssj = 275,000,000
Post ROSAT trip 1 = 13,000,000
ssj = 650,000,000
assj = 975,000,000

Since this time Vegeta has developed fpssj, ssj2 and then trained with Whis and gotten ssjb.

Piccolo looks the same, hasn't had any new training methods and yet here we are with him suddenly relevant again? I want Piccolo to be relevant...I also want it to make sense as to how he got there because before it seemed like the Namekian was tapping out after the ROSAT.
Does that mean only current SSJG is God-tier?
Are we retconning Whis-training as wel in ROF? That's how Vegeta made his massive gains. Not by the BOG-storyline.

I'm just asking this to clearify things, not to dispute any arguments.

It's funny how only Goku seems to push through the limit while all the others follow by immense training. Piccolo included.
But which immense training? They were pretty much working their asses off in Z. In Super they seem to lay on their asses a lot.

But ... even with the retcon Piccolo has made some pretty big gains, more than Gohan untill he re-unlocked his full potential.
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superperfectnerd
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I just think the two movies had nothing else in mind when they were written and then Toei just followed the storyline again for Super, it's not like Toriyama is going to sit down with them and tell them how to re-tell a movie he wrote when he had no plans for the future of the franchise and he's gonna say "hey you know how base Goku absorbed god ki...yeah everyone and their mothers is gonna be on that level in the first new arc of Super and you know how Goku and Vegeta haven't used regular ssj since being godly in base, well now they suddenly can do that again and are suddenly going to seem weaker at the same time."

The manga had no absorption of god ki in base and Toriyama works more closely with the manga, the anime's writers are having to deal with characters power being different to what the movies suggest without being told how to explain it. This isn't like when Toriyama just wrote the whole thing himself.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 11 2017, 11:30 PM.
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Dagon
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superperfectnerd
Dec 11 2017, 06:20 PM
Yeah I like to low ball. I'm not having anyone trading hands with base Goku as beyond ssjg BOG arc. As far as I'm concerned base godku has been retconned.
"Fit" Buu(Fat Buu after training), impressed Goku with his strength. Goku said "You got that power!" BASE Goku fought Fit Buu with moderate difficulty. At the very lowest of the lowest of the low ball base Goku is on par with "Fit" Buu, who is stronger than Fat Buu. Base Vegeta from a few arcs ago equaled Goku and tanked SSJ3 Gotenks. Can't tell me that's not one hell of a base form.
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superperfectnerd
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What's the point in God level if Boo could have gotten there any time he wanted in 2 hours? Super Boo could have trained for half an hour befre fighting Gotenks and flattened him. The show now has so many writers, feats like this are just PIS and before the tournament starts we see Boo again asleep and he's all fat. Fit Boo feels like filler.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Dec 12 2017, 03:36 AM.
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Axl
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Hmm... good question. How strong is the big green dude?

I'd say he graduated from being a water boy to, huh I don't know, maybe like Mr. Fodder #420? But then again he got owned by a little green bug. So, I'd say he got demoted back to being a water boy.

Long story short, he got somewhat stronger, but, in the current grand scheme of things his power increase has no weight or purpose for the plot. #TrashIsStillTrash not matter how much you prettify it. 'Nuff said.


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