SS3 Vegeto BoG > SSG Goku?

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SS3 Vegeto BoG > SSG Goku?
Tweet Topic Started: Nov 1 2017, 02:55 AM (2,329 Views)
FutureSaiyan	Nov 1 2017, 02:55 AM Post #1
Posts: 924 Group: Member Member #11,997 Joined: January 18, 2015 Gender Male Country Australia Favourite Anime Dragonball Z, Naruto, Bleach, AoT, Death Note, FMAB Favourite Manga DBZ	So the argument for a Hypothetical SS3 Vegito being weaker than SSG Goku has always been that Goku “said fusion wouldnt be enough”, but not its plainly clear that Goku had no idea what Beerus’ true power was, considering SSB KKx20 (where SSB is leagues above initial SSB which was already leagues above SSG) was still no match for beerus. So noting that SSG was basically fodder compared to Beerus to begin with, does Goku’s claim really have any weight to it? I dont see why Vegito cant be as strong if not stronger than SSG, and considering Goku had no clue about how strong SSG would be, he only really opted for it because itnwas what Beerus desired.



+ Ssj3vegito96	Nov 1 2017, 03:03 AM Post #2
Posts: 10,333 Group: Elite Member Member #10,438 Joined: November 2, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon ball/Z/GT/S, Fullmetal Alchemist:Brotherhood, One Punch Man Favourite Manga DB/Z/S	Sorry can you rephrase this? I don't know else you can make of goku saying that even if him and vegeta fused they couldn't beat beerus. Goku not knowing beerus's true power only makes vegito even weaker doesn't it?
	IT'S CHEESE Spoiler: click to toggle Top 7 favorite dbz heroes: 1. Sometimes it goku sometimes it's vegeta 2. ^ 3. Teen gohan 4. Future trunks 5. Piccolo 6. Adult gohan 7. Bardock


+ Pyrus	Nov 1 2017, 03:08 AM Post #3
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Goku not being aware of Beerus' true strength doesn't invalidate his claim that a hypothetical Vegetto wouldn't be enough. He fought Beerus. He knows at least a bare minimum level to reach, and Vegetto wouldn't accomplish it. Super Saiyan God didn't make it to the top either, but if it wasn't at least at the level Goku figured he could fight back with, he would've shown some kind of disappointment or taken his original claim back.
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Slifer	Nov 1 2017, 03:38 AM Post #4
Posts: 3,488 Group: Member Member #10,141 Joined: September 7, 2013	Base/Kaioken wasn't enough to beat Freeza. Enter Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan wasn't enough to beat the cyborgs/Cell. Enter Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan 2 wasn't enough to beat Boo. Enter Super Saiyan 3 and fusion. Super Saiyan 3 and fusion wasn't enough to beat Beerus. Enter Super Saiyan God. It's basic storytelling. The most powerful weapon Goku has (fusion) isn't enough so he needs something stronger (SSJG). Just because it ultimately came up short doesn't negate anything relating to Vegetto. That just makes Beerus even stronger than Goku anticipated. Edited by Slifer, Nov 1 2017, 03:45 AM.



FutureSaiyan	Nov 1 2017, 04:26 AM Post #5
Posts: 924 Group: Member Member #11,997 Joined: January 18, 2015 Gender Male Country Australia Favourite Anime Dragonball Z, Naruto, Bleach, AoT, Death Note, FMAB Favourite Manga DBZ	Pyrus Nov 1 2017, 03:08 AM Goku not being aware of Beerus' true strength doesn't invalidate his claim that a hypothetical Vegetto wouldn't be enough. He fought Beerus. He knows at least a bare minimum level to reach, and Vegetto wouldn't accomplish it. Super Saiyan God didn't make it to the top either, but if it wasn't at least at the level Goku figured he could fight back with, he would've shown some kind of disappointment or taken his original claim back. Yeah fair enough, sounds reasonable, just wanted some clarification, Thanks.



+ Kaboom	Nov 1 2017, 04:28 AM Post #6
Posts: 1,927 Group: Elite Member Member #9,984 Joined: August 24, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon Ball What Browser do you use? Chrome Favourite Manga One Punch Man	Honestly, it's almost completely guesswork. Goku said that Fusion with Vegeta probably still couldn't win, but must have also realized that Beerus was going extremely easy on him. So the only thing that really tells us. at least on its own, is that Vegetto (in an unspecified form) is weaker than whatever Beeru's full power is. Just like SS God Goku was, in the end, so... not all that helpful. Really, the better evidence for how God-Goku compares to Vegetto isn't even the line that mentions Vegetto, but instead Goku's line about his own strength in the god form later, saying "I didn't think this realm of power was even possible" or whatever it was. That strongly suggests that it's well beyond anything Goku's experienced before, or would even expect from something like a Fusion. Edited by Kaboom, Nov 1 2017, 01:34 PM.



+ Pyrus	Nov 1 2017, 04:29 AM Post #7
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Not a problem. That's kind of why I prefer the manga's take on it. There's no line like that from Goku, so you can have SSJG Goku weaker than SSJ3 Vegetto or even SSJ Vegetto if you really wanted.
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ekrolo2	Nov 2 2017, 10:53 PM Post #8
Posts: 1,601 Group: Member Member #12,689 Joined: October 6, 2015 Gender Male Country None Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Opera Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Pyrus Nov 1 2017, 04:29 AM Not a problem. That's kind of why I prefer the manga's take on it. There's no line like that from Goku, so you can have SSJG Goku weaker than SSJ3 Vegetto or even SSJ Vegetto if you really wanted. There is a line where Goku calls Gods power something beyond what he thought possible in the manga, though.



+ Pyrus	Nov 2 2017, 11:16 PM Post #9
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	ekrolo2 Nov 2 2017, 10:53 PM Pyrus Nov 1 2017, 04:29 AM Not a problem. That's kind of why I prefer the manga's take on it. There's no line like that from Goku, so you can have SSJG Goku weaker than SSJ3 Vegetto or even SSJ Vegetto if you really wanted. There is a line where Goku calls Gods power something beyond what he thought possible in the manga, though. True, but it's slightly less direct than a hypothetical comparison. Ch. 4, pg. 4.5-6-5.1 Context: Beerus and Goku begin their fight Beerus: “How was that? What’s it like to be a god?” Goku: “It’s surprising! It’s like a whole new world just opened up to me!” Beerus: “I’m also quite surprised myself.” It's easy to argue he was only referring to his own limits rather than a fusion.
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superperfectnerd	Nov 3 2017, 01:47 AM Post #10
Posts: 3,718 Group: Member Member #11,519 Joined: July 15, 2014	I have ssj3 Vegetto stronger than ssjg. I don't think the writers or Toriyama expect fans to go "oh but Vegetto must have ssj3 because he is part Goku and the SEG multipliers say ssj3 is 8 times ssj and Goku and Vegeta are even stronger than the Boo arc, so Goku must mean a hypothetical ssj3 ower because Goku isn't an idiot, he's a power level mathematical genius when it comes to hypothetical fusion forms". No, the casual audience member doesn't even know the SEG multipliers, they just remember how strong Vegetto was against Boo and think ssjg is even stronger than that. That's the train of thought a casual fan would go through I think. Edited by superperfectnerd, Nov 3 2017, 01:48 AM.



+ Solid Snake	Nov 3 2017, 02:06 AM Post #11
滅Are you frightened? Posts: 8,963 Group: Elite Member Member #6,739 Joined: September 11, 2011 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime Dragon ball, z, gt, Naruto & Shippuden, Bleach, Rosario + Vampire What Browser do you use? Kept you waiting huh? Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, Naruto, and Bleach	superperfectnerd Nov 3 2017, 01:47 AM I have ssj3 Vegetto stronger than ssjg. I don't think the writers or Toriyama expect fans to go "oh but Vegetto must have ssj3 because he is part Goku and the SEG multipliers say ssj3 is 8 times ssj and Goku and Vegeta are even stronger than the Boo arc, so Goku must mean a hypothetical ssj3 ower because Goku isn't an idiot, he's a power level mathematical genius when it comes to hypothetical fusion forms". No, the casual audience member doesn't even know the SEG multipliers, they just remember how strong Vegetto was against Boo and think ssjg is even stronger than that. That's the train of thought a casual fan would go through I think. How is that even fair? Vegito demonstrated the ability to go Super Saiyan post fusing, so why wouldn't we account a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito? If him surpassing Super Saiyan Vegito and not his other two forms just destroys the vibe of what we were told (fusing with Vegeta wouldn't work). Even if we had no knowledge of SEG's multipliers, we were told that Kid Buu is twice as strong as before (Buuhan) by Goku who was a Super Saiyan 2 and fighting a suppressed or messing around Kid Buu, and if Goku managed to get 2x stronger via Super Saiyan 3, then we still have a means to find how strong the two were. Against Semi-Imperfect Cell, Goku said Vegeta would have to triple his strength to stand a chance against him, so: Super Saiyan: Greater than Kaioken x20 Ascended Super Saiyan: 3x Super Saiyan Ultra Super Saiyan: Greater than Ascended Super Saiyan Super Saiyan 2: Half of Majin Buu's revival energy Super Saiyan 3: At least 2x Super Saiyan 2 See, we still have a gauge, and all we have to do is apply that to Vegito. Super Vegito > Super Saiyan 3 Goku >= Kid Buu (2x stronger than Buuhan) > Buuhan > Ultimate Gohan = Super Saiyan 2 Goku (half of Majin Buu's revival energy) > Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta (3x stronger than Semi-Cell) > Semi-Cell (surpasses Super Saiyan) > Super Saiyan Goku (stronger than Kaioken x20) ext... Vegito could only get few more times stronger with the multipliers stated from the series.
	Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig SUPER THANKS CELL Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8434874/1/#new Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8435708/1/#new


+ Pyrus	Nov 3 2017, 02:25 AM Post #12
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Solid Snake Nov 3 2017, 02:06 AM Even if we had no knowledge of SEG's multipliers, we were told that Kid Buu is twice as strong as before (Buuhan) by Goku who was a Super Saiyan 2 and fighting a suppressed or messing around Kid Buu, and if Goku managed to get 2x stronger via Super Saiyan 3, then we still have a means to find how strong the two were. Against Semi-Imperfect Cell, Goku said Vegeta would have to triple his strength to stand a chance against him, so: All dub lines.
	Spoiler: click to toggle


StrenuousSpider	Nov 3 2017, 02:49 AM Post #13
Posts: 2,090 Group: Member Member #13,372 Joined: July 11, 2016 Gender Male Country United States	Pretty sure casual fans think vegito can go ssj3. If fusion is completely useless against the level of power beerus used they can put the dots together just fine. They also think movies are canon to the story bla bla bla. Hell alot of casual fans think GT is a continuity of super and that beerus used 70% of his power as well as the whole kid buu > buuhan. So to go into the argument that casual fans wouldn't think of ssj3 vegito and take that as fact he was referring to ssj vegito then we would need to take everything else i mentioned as fact. But us non casual fans look into things more. Dose not matter if thats what was intended the outcome was something else. Gotenks had ssj. But he had to learn ssj2 and 3 because goten and trunks did not have ssj2 or 3. But if they automatically get ssj because the fuses have it then vegito should logically have ssj2 and 3. Edited by StrenuousSpider, Nov 3 2017, 02:50 AM.



+ Solid Snake	Nov 3 2017, 04:19 AM Post #14
滅Are you frightened? Posts: 8,963 Group: Elite Member Member #6,739 Joined: September 11, 2011 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime Dragon ball, z, gt, Naruto & Shippuden, Bleach, Rosario + Vampire What Browser do you use? Kept you waiting huh? Favourite Manga Dragon Ball, Naruto, and Bleach	Pyrus Nov 3 2017, 02:25 AM Solid Snake Nov 3 2017, 02:06 AM Even if we had no knowledge of SEG's multipliers, we were told that Kid Buu is twice as strong as before (Buuhan) by Goku who was a Super Saiyan 2 and fighting a suppressed or messing around Kid Buu, and if Goku managed to get 2x stronger via Super Saiyan 3, then we still have a means to find how strong the two were. Against Semi-Imperfect Cell, Goku said Vegeta would have to triple his strength to stand a chance against him, so: All dub lines. Pretty sure casual fans don't know the difference from factual statements from Japanese and English Dubs.
	Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig SUPER THANKS CELL Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8434874/1/#new Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8435708/1/#new


+ Pyrus	Nov 3 2017, 04:20 AM Post #15
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	I don't understand the point being made then. Sorry.
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