Vegeta vs black in the manga

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Vegeta vs black in the manga
Tweet Topic Started: Oct 31 2017, 01:25 AM (8,187 Views)
+ Ssj3vegito96	Oct 31 2017, 06:05 PM Post #16
Posts: 10,333 Group: Elite Member Member #10,438 Joined: November 2, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon ball/Z/GT/S, Fullmetal Alchemist:Brotherhood, One Punch Man Favourite Manga DB/Z/S	True, good point. Ok, I can see trunks getting zenkais still then
	IT'S CHEESE Spoiler: click to toggle Top 7 favorite dbz heroes: 1. Sometimes it goku sometimes it's vegeta 2. ^ 3. Teen gohan 4. Future trunks 5. Piccolo 6. Adult gohan 7. Bardock


+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Oct 31 2017, 07:59 PM Post #17
魔王子 Posts: 9,798 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Ssj3vegito96 Oct 31 2017, 01:58 AM ThePrinceOfSaiyans Oct 31 2017, 01:32 AM Eh, I'm still partial to the whole 2 base thing. Either that, or Goku was suppressed when fighting Trunks. It just strikes me as absurd that Vegeta can just call upon a rage boost. What's so absurd about it though? It's possible because goku told gohan to do it in the buu saga. Goku and vegeta are much more skilled and experienced than gohan especially at this point and have lectured about remembering and calling upon their rage I mean, anger typically can't be controlled, which is why I find it absurd. I suppose Vegeta could have the kept the power granted to him in that moment, but power through anger has always been fleeting in this series, which would mean this is an exception to the rule. I also just think it's absurd that Vegeta acquired strength over 50 times greater than Super Saiyan 3 in that instance. I mean, the rage boost is absurd in and of itself, but it's whole other level of stupid if it granted him that much power. This is how I assume things work, as things stand right now: Spoiler: click to toggle Son Goku: 18,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan: 900,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan 2: 1,800,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan 3: 7,200,000,000,000 -Base God: 18,000,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan(God Ki): 900,000,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan 2(God Ki): 1,800,000,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan 3(God Ki): 7,200,000,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan God: 18,000,000,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan Blue: 90,000,000,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan Blue Complete: 900,000,000,000,000,000 Trunks: 18,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan 2: 1,800,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan 2 Full Power: 7,200,000,000,000 Vegeta: 18,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan 2: 1,800,000,000,000 -Base God: 18,000,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan 2(God Ki): 1,800,000,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan Blue: 90,000,000,000,000,000 --Post Training: 36,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan God: 36,000,000,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan Blue: 180,000,000,000,000,000 Goku Black: 24,000,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan: 1,200,000,000,000,000 --Zenkai: 2,400,000,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan Rose: 120,000,000,000,000,000 Zamasu: 1,800,000,000,000 Merged Zamasu: 900,000,000,000,000,000 Vegetto: 180,000,000,000,000 -Super Saiyan Blue: 900,000,000,000,000,000,000
	Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita


+ Pyrus	Oct 31 2017, 09:16 PM Post #18
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Ssj3vegito96 Oct 31 2017, 06:23 AM Is it not possible hit held back more against goku than he did against vegeta? Because that would kinda fix everything right? It would fix things, but it's never hinted at. If Goku saw a much more powerful Vegeta get stomped, it wouldn't make much sense for him to start off without transforming to at least Super Saiyan since that doesn't really drain stamina. superperfectnerd Oct 31 2017, 05:59 PM That doesn't stop Trunks from being stronger after his zenkai and recovery in the present than he was before because we're also supposed to think Goku and Vegeta are equal, Vegeta being a hundred times stronger in ssj2 than Goku isn't really implied before this either. Both are stupid but I think Trunks being improved after a full recovery is less stupid. Yeah, I don't deny Trunks getting zenkais. Ssj3vegito96 Oct 31 2017, 06:01 PM Was there anything that would suggest trunks can or can't get zenkais? Ch. 20, pg. 11.8-9 Context: Trunks figures out how Goku Black can bring out his body’s full potential Trunks: “That guy… It can’t be…!” Mai: “What is it, Trunks…?” Trunks: “We Saiyans can become drastically stronger, on a whole other level, once we recover from a near death experience…” Mai: “Is that true?!” Trunks: “That guy… He must be using that ability!” Ch. 20, pg. 15.2-3 Context: Vegeta is still getting beat by Goku Black despite receiving a senzu bean Trunks: “It’s probably no longer possible for him and Goku to power up from that ability. There’s a good chance that the two of them have already hit their limits.” It makes sense with Black saying at one point that Trunks should come back stronger for the next time they fight in a flashback, but we don't have any time frame for all of their fights. What's even weirder about the whole situation is that Goku approaches it with caution after sparring with Trunks, and Trunks himself wasn't even 100% certain despite getting one-shotted by SSJG Goku (although he had no idea it was God for a split second). Then of course Vegeta uses Super Saiyan 2 rather than God or Blue and has the advantage against a transformed Black. Ch. 15, pg. 28.3 Context: After Bulma scolds Goku and Vegeta for wanting to fight Black immediately Goku: “Trunks doesn’t have to come with us… Maybe the two of us will be enough, right, Vegeta?” Ch. 15, pg. 37.2.-4 Context: As Trunks recovers from sparring Goku: “You surprised me!!! I can’t believe you managed to get this far on your own!!” Trunks: “Ah, well… Even still, it was nothing against Black…” Goku: “I thought it would be a piece of cake, but I guess we’re in trouble…” Ch. 18, pg. 37.5-8 Context: Goku and Vegeta go off to fight Goku Black Mai: “So do you think they can do it?” Trunks: “Yeah… They’ll be fine, I think.” Mai: “I see… Sounds like they’re really strong.” Trunks: “That’s also true. After all, those two are the only ones who could protect this world. They have something unique about them, something that makes me believe in them…”
	Spoiler: click to toggle


Saiyan36	Oct 31 2017, 09:49 PM Post #19
Posts: 656 Group: Member Member #13,607 Joined: November 6, 2016	. Edited by Saiyan36, Oct 31 2017, 10:18 PM.



Saiyan36	Oct 31 2017, 10:17 PM Post #20
Posts: 656 Group: Member Member #13,607 Joined: November 6, 2016	Saiyan36 Oct 31 2017, 09:49 PM That's the manga version. They've been thought some badass training by training with Whis ... its almost they are equal to ... God Ki. How the hell Trunks has gotten that power That's where am still thinking of. Has he gotten training from future Whis in secret? Edited by Saiyan36, Oct 31 2017, 10:19 PM.



+ Ssj3vegito96	Nov 1 2017, 04:31 AM Post #21
Posts: 10,333 Group: Elite Member Member #10,438 Joined: November 2, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon ball/Z/GT/S, Fullmetal Alchemist:Brotherhood, One Punch Man Favourite Manga DB/Z/S	@prince why would rage be something that can't be controlled? We have a bunch of scenes that say otherwise. In real life yeah but apparently not for saiyans Quote: What's even weirder about the whole situation is that Goku approaches it with caution after sparring with Trunks, and Trunks himself wasn't even 100% certain despite getting one-shotted by SSJG Goku (although he had no idea it was God for a split second). Then of course Vegeta uses Super Saiyan 2 rather than God or Blue and has the advantage against a transformed Black. Ch. 15, pg. 28.3 Context: After Bulma scolds Goku and Vegeta for wanting to fight Black immediately Goku: “Trunks doesn’t have to come with us… Maybe the two of us will be enough, right, Vegeta?” Ch. 15, pg. 37.2.-4 Context: As Trunks recovers from sparring Goku: “You surprised me!!! I can’t believe you managed to get this far on your own!!” Trunks: “Ah, well… Even still, it was nothing against Black…” Goku: “I thought it would be a piece of cake, but I guess we’re in trouble…” Ch. 18, pg. 37.5-8 Context: Goku and Vegeta go off to fight Goku Black Mai: “So do you think they can do it?” Trunks: “Yeah… They’ll be fine, I think.” Mai: “I see… Sounds like they’re really strong.” Trunks: “That’s also true. After all, those two are the only ones who could protect this world. They have something unique about them, something that makes me believe in them…” So it seems to me based on those that ssj2 trunks and ssj3 goku are nothing to black. So what's weird is that vegeta as a ssj2 fought black. So the last piece of this is something that makes vegeta much stronger which is a rage boost
	IT'S CHEESE Spoiler: click to toggle Top 7 favorite dbz heroes: 1. Sometimes it goku sometimes it's vegeta 2. ^ 3. Teen gohan 4. Future trunks 5. Piccolo 6. Adult gohan 7. Bardock


+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Nov 1 2017, 02:28 PM Post #22
魔王子 Posts: 9,798 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Ssj3vegito96 Nov 1 2017, 04:31 AM @prince why would rage be something that can't be controlled? We have a bunch of scenes that say otherwise. In real life yeah but apparently not for saiyans Okay, show me scenes or panels where someone's anger was controlled.
	Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita


+ Ssj3vegito96	Nov 1 2017, 03:00 PM Post #23
Posts: 10,333 Group: Elite Member Member #10,438 Joined: November 2, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon ball/Z/GT/S, Fullmetal Alchemist:Brotherhood, One Punch Man Favourite Manga DB/Z/S	Goku telling gohan to raise his anger even as a ssj2 to be as strong as he was against cell. There's vegeta telling cabba to remember and use the rage that he had when he first went super saiyan. There's goku training gohan to get angry enough to turn ssj Vegeta using a rage boost over his ssj2 is no different than what goku was trying to get gohan to do in the buu saga. Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Nov 1 2017, 03:01 PM.
	IT'S CHEESE Spoiler: click to toggle Top 7 favorite dbz heroes: 1. Sometimes it goku sometimes it's vegeta 2. ^ 3. Teen gohan 4. Future trunks 5. Piccolo 6. Adult gohan 7. Bardock


+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Nov 1 2017, 04:07 PM Post #24
魔王子 Posts: 9,798 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Ssj3vegito96 Nov 1 2017, 03:00 PM Goku telling gohan to raise his anger even as a ssj2 to be as strong as he was against cell. There's vegeta telling cabba to remember and use the rage that he had when he first went super saiyan. There's goku training gohan to get angry enough to turn ssj Vegeta using a rage boost over his ssj2 is no different than what goku was trying to get gohan to do in the buu saga. Except, Gohan specifically says he can't call upon his anger at will after Goku tells him to get angry. Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6 Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone… Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2 Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…” Transformations are a separate issue entirely. Rage is a trigger, but it is not needed to prolong the use of any given form. In a prolonged state of anger, like in the case of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, there's a clear distinction between how he acts normally and how he acts as a Super Saiyan 2. Gohan isn't normally a sadistic person, but he became one after ascending to Super Saiyan 2. There's never been a case where a prolonged state of anger was controllable.
	Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita


+ Ssj3vegito96	Nov 1 2017, 04:37 PM Post #25
Posts: 10,333 Group: Elite Member Member #10,438 Joined: November 2, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon ball/Z/GT/S, Fullmetal Alchemist:Brotherhood, One Punch Man Favourite Manga DB/Z/S	I never got the impression he's saying it's not possible for him to raise his anger at will. I always thought he just can't do it atm because he's rusty. He had great control over his rage in the cell games Prolonging a transformation isn't what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about being a super saiyan and then getting more angry to get stronger. Is that not possible?
	IT'S CHEESE Spoiler: click to toggle Top 7 favorite dbz heroes: 1. Sometimes it goku sometimes it's vegeta 2. ^ 3. Teen gohan 4. Future trunks 5. Piccolo 6. Adult gohan 7. Bardock


+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Nov 1 2017, 04:48 PM Post #26
魔王子 Posts: 9,798 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Ssj3vegito96 Nov 1 2017, 04:37 PM I never got the impression he's saying it's not possible for him to raise his anger at will. I always thought he just can't do it atm because he's rusty. He had great control over his rage in the cell games Prolonging a transformation isn't what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about being a super saiyan and then getting more angry to get stronger. Is that not possible? Except he didn't have control over his anger during the Cell Games. He became a completely different person as a result of his anger. I mean, not for a prolonged period of time. I imagine Gohan's power increases as a Super Saiyan when he's angry, but only for as long as he's angry.
	Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita


ahill1	Nov 1 2017, 05:51 PM Post #27
Posts: 759 Group: Member Member #12,438 Joined: June 29, 2015 Gender Not Specified Country Egypt Favourite Anime HxH What Browser do you use? the best Favourite Manga HxH	I prefer having SSJ as a ~2x multiplier as per Universe 6. It works better with Goku's performance against Hit, imo. Let's see: Goku SSJ : 7 ~SSJ2 : 14 ~SSJ3 : 28 ~SSJG : 56 ~SSJB : 100 All seems fine here. Moving on... Trunks "mastered" SSJ2 : 27 [said to be slightly weaker than Goku ssj3) Black base : 32 [according to the fight they just had before Trunks going to the past, it didn't seem like Black had all that of an advantage against Trunks. The latter could push him back a little using strategy, and it was implied Trunks was strong enough in the past to make him stronger... a ~85% gap between them is tangible with the fight.] Black SSJ : 64 Vegeta SSJ2 : 70 Then we have kind of a problem... Vegeta SSJ2 seems to be above Goku SSJG going by the numbas. Well, to solve this we could kind of nerf the lower forms, as well as Black's SSJ transformation. Goku SSJ : 7 ~SSJ2 : 10 ~SSJ3 : 20 ~SSJG : 60 ~SSJB : 100 Black base : 22.5 ~SSJ ~ 30 Vegeta SSJ2 : 35 Vegeta SSJ2 would still be way stronger than Goku SSJ3, obviously, but he at least would still pale in comparison to U6 Goku's God forms. It's either lower the SSJ2 and 3's multipliers or deal with Vegeta SSJ2 > Goku SSJ God. Then, a question: is Vegeta's God forms also stronger than Goku's (and also his own) from Universe 6? If no, then the SSJG's multiplier over SSJ3 would be basically non existent. Assuming the God forms also got stronger alongside Vegeta's lower forms, and that their multipliers got constant, then we'd have: Vegeta SSJ2 : 35 ~SSJG : 210 ~SSJB : 350 Black did dominate Vegeta SSJB once he got a Zenkai (apparently a huge one)... and not even after getting a Senzu Vegeta could keep up, so we know it wasn't due to Blue's energy depletion. Black SSJ (post Zenkai) : 400 ~SSJR : 5,700 [assuming his multiplier over SSJ is the same as Blue's over SSJ]. Vegeta SSJG (post RoSaT) : 5,700 ~SSJB : 9,500 Then, in this case, you either assume the God's multiplier over the lower forms got a lot bigger or that Vegeta's SSJ and SSJ2 surpassed U6's non-God forms... no other way around it. Then, it's likely only SSJB surpassed Merged Zamasu... you can have this latter at Vegetto SSJG's level to keep the gap between V. Blue and MZ as big as possible. There're some inplications for base Vegetto being > Goku and Vegeta Blue. Keeping the SSJ's multipliers over base constant for Vegetto (as the one I have at the U6 Tournament), we'd have something like: Vegetto base : 12,000 ~SSJ : 24,000 ~SSJ2 : 35,000 ~SSJ3 : 70,000 ~SSJG : 210,000 ~SSJB : 350,000 Merged Zamasu : 200,000 [still slightly below God Vegetto, but to such a small amount that would still force Vegetto to turn Blue to have a comfortable lead] BUT... that'd make Completed SSJB Goku about as strong as Vegetto SSJG... meh. Beerus one-shotting CSSJB Vegeta is still tangible with this kind of gap, although if you wish to have a multifold gap, then yeah, you'll have to go with "lower forms of Vegetto > MZ" and that Vegetto went to SSJB for the overkill. I know the OP was just talking about the 1st part of the saga, but I decided to make a post addressing the power scale of the saga as a whole. Greetings!



+ Ssj3vegito96	Nov 1 2017, 05:51 PM Post #28
Posts: 10,333 Group: Elite Member Member #10,438 Joined: November 2, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon ball/Z/GT/S, Fullmetal Alchemist:Brotherhood, One Punch Man Favourite Manga DB/Z/S	As a ssj2 for the first time yeah he became a different person. But I was looking at before he transformed. He only allowed himself to release his anger when android 16 got him to finally say f*** you cell
	IT'S CHEESE Spoiler: click to toggle Top 7 favorite dbz heroes: 1. Sometimes it goku sometimes it's vegeta 2. ^ 3. Teen gohan 4. Future trunks 5. Piccolo 6. Adult gohan 7. Bardock


+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Nov 1 2017, 06:05 PM Post #29
魔王子 Posts: 9,798 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	I'd argue he snapped, it wasn't a willful release.
	Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita


+ Ssj3vegito96	Nov 1 2017, 08:20 PM Post #30
Posts: 10,333 Group: Elite Member Member #10,438 Joined: November 2, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon ball/Z/GT/S, Fullmetal Alchemist:Brotherhood, One Punch Man Favourite Manga DB/Z/S	I think it was willful. That was the point of android 16's lecture; he needed to just let it go so he could use his anger and get stronger instead of bottling it up. But I guess that's where we agree to disagree
	IT'S CHEESE Spoiler: click to toggle Top 7 favorite dbz heroes: 1. Sometimes it goku sometimes it's vegeta 2. ^ 3. Teen gohan 4. Future trunks 5. Piccolo 6. Adult gohan 7. Bardock


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