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| Vegeta vs black in the manga | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 31 2017, 01:25 AM (8,181 Views) | |
| + Ssj3vegito96 | Oct 31 2017, 01:25 AM Post #1 |
 
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If trunks's ssj2 is about as strong as ssj3 he couldn't beat base black, but black turned ssj2(maybe it was ssj1 but lets just say ssj2 unless you've got good evidence) against ssj2 vegeta, then then that means ssj2 vegeta was over 200x stronger than ssj3 goku and trunks. This makes sense imo because I believe it's possible vegeta was using a the same rage boosted ssj2 he used against beerus. An issue is that goku and vegeta were impressed trunks was able multiply his ssj2 form by just ~4x, not hundreds of times stronger. So the way I look at it is that what trunks did was actually find an evolution of the form, hence why he said he wasn't satisfied with ssj2's power. What vegeta did was just tap into rage boost. Not sure how different these two concepts would be though. How would you look at it? And I'm trying to remember if that was the only issue with the power scaling in this fight. Was there anything else? |
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Oct 31 2017, 01:32 AM Post #2 |
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Eh, I'm still partial to the whole 2 base thing. Either that, or Goku was suppressed when fighting Trunks. It just strikes me as absurd that Vegeta can just call upon a rage boost. |
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| superperfectnerd | Oct 31 2017, 01:46 AM Post #3 |
 
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This is the moment the manga really drops the ball with the scaling and I think it's honestly just a mistake they didn't really think through properly following the anime and trying to both mirror it and be different at the same time. If it'd just been a godly base level Black who also has ssj rose instead of having him fight Trunks in base and then also have regular golden ssj forms. In this regard the Black power scaling is actually worse in the manga because the multipliers for ssj2 over base are huge and there's no indication of two base theory in the manga. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Oct 31 2017, 01:58 AM Post #4 |
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What's so absurd about it though? It's possible because goku told gohan to do it in the buu saga. Goku and vegeta are much more skilled and experienced than gohan especially at this point and have lectured about remembering and calling upon their rage Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Oct 31 2017, 02:15 AM.
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| Namek_Nimrod | Oct 31 2017, 02:25 AM Post #5 |
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Hasn't been an accurate power level since the Namek Saga....any numbers, percentages or multiples are just complete guess work from a fictional cartoon with no consistency. Yes I know it is the manga. Claiming the power-levels you do and trying to work them out will only make your autism worse. |
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| + Son-Goku | Oct 31 2017, 04:25 AM Post #6 |
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The statements and feats clearly show us SS2 Vegeta>SS Black Goku>SS3 Goku>FPSS2 Future Trunks Having Vegeta keep his rage form definitely sounds a lot more reasonable than most explanations. My thoughts are either that or Vegeta achieved the same Full Power status that Trunks did while they were training together. I have a hard time believing Vegeta had a suped up version of Super Saiyan 2 based on the reactions of Future Trunks's form. We just mainly want to believe that Goku and Vegeta are equals, I mean, Goku achieves Completed Super Saiyan Blue before Vegeta. Vegeta even says that Goku had been pushing himself in training, this was Vegeta saying this even after training in the Room of Spirit and Time when Goku had only trained with the Evil Containment Wave. No matter which explanation you use for Vegeta's form you're going to be facing at least one or two issues or contradictions. You have to at least acknowledge SS2 Vegeta>SS Black Goku>SS3 Goku>FPSS2 Future Trunks. Beyond that I wouldn't argue with anyone else's opinion. I'm probably going to start going by Vegeta using the form he used against Beerus. It also serves as a good excuse for Vegeta to not use Super Saiyan 3. |
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| + Pyrus | Oct 31 2017, 04:40 AM Post #7 |
 
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It's odd – Black has the Super Saiyan 2 lightning, but he has the same hairstyle as SSJ1 Goku. I know I'm a big advocate of the Super Saiyan 2 aura always having lightning, but I also think if it's Goku's body, he's going to have the same hairstyle as Goku, and that's not SSJ2 Goku's hairstyle whatsoever. It also makes things easier (slightly) number-wise if Black is simply the first level rather than the second. As for an explanation...I don't have one. I honestly cannot figure this one out. The Universe 6 tournament puts a huge damper on the whole thing because of the fairly direct implication that SSJB Vegeta at less than 10% is about on the same level as SSJ Goku. That means Super Saiyan 2, 3, and God have to fit between a 10x gap (so each one needs to be about a 2x boost, which is incredibly underwhelming for God and Blue particularly). But then you get to this part of the story and Vegeta clearly gets way more of a boost with Super Saiyan 2 than all the forms combined in the U6 tourney. Yet God and Blue are distinctively stronger than even that. AND Goku Black presumably has all the transformations too if he can use his own version of Blue as well as regular Super Saiyan, making God and Blue immensely powerful boosts for Goku and Vegeta. I guess it's possible to latch onto what Whis said in the U6 tourney and try to use it as if the Saiyans have become more adapted to Blue's strength, and are able to utilize more of it rather than the rung on the ladder that's only ~10x stronger than normal ol' Super Saiyan 1. It's still kind of iffy. We know currently that God and Blue are on a different level than Super Saiyan 3 because Goku said it himself against Toppo. Using the U6 showings, that wouldn't be possible unless you stretched Whis' statement about Vegeta all the way to the finest point and had him at like 0.0005% or something stupid. I really think it just wasn't thought about, and the multipliers were haphazardly changed to fit whatever was going on at the time. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Oct 31 2017, 06:23 AM Post #8 |
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Is it not possible hit held back more against goku than he did against vegeta? Because that would kinda fix everything right? |
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| superperfectnerd | Oct 31 2017, 03:31 PM Post #9 |
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How about Trunks receiving a zenkai upon his recovery in the present and also being starved and weak during his fight with Black before, in the anime he was eating cat food wasn't he and even hybrid saiyans need a s*** tonne of food? Other times he'd fought Black in the past off panel Black could have used ssj against him but here Trunks is tired and on the run. So ssj2 Trunks (exhausted) < base Black < ssj2 Trunks < ssj Black < ssj2 Goku and Vegeta < ssj2 Trunks (zenkai) < ssj3 Goku Edited by superperfectnerd, Oct 31 2017, 03:32 PM.
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Oct 31 2017, 04:31 PM Post #10 |
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Black did transform against trunks. Trunks said "I haven't seen that in a while". Idk what you want to make of this. Either trunks hasn't fought ssj black in a while and has been fighting his base form since he doesn't need it anymore or trunks just hasn't fought black in a while and the last time they fought he was tired
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Oct 31 2017, 04:33 PM.
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| superperfectnerd | Oct 31 2017, 04:54 PM Post #11 |
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I think having Trunks exhausted and battle worn living off little to no food with a saiyan's appetite and being much stronger upon eating a senzu bean than he was previously makes more sense than Vegeta keeping a rage boost as a form making ssj2 somehow superior to ssj3 always for him. Vegeta's rage boost would be ginormous as well if that were the case and only make ssjg and blue even bigger multipliers, which they don't really need to be in the manga. Trunks wasn't just low on allies, he was also low on resources and hasn't eaten a senzu bean for a long time, could be the first time in years he's been in full fighting condition. Edited by superperfectnerd, Oct 31 2017, 04:56 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Oct 31 2017, 05:06 PM Post #12 |
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Black said it was nice to finally fight someone worthwhile since it was boring fighting Trunks over and over, so I don't think that's the message meant to be sent about Trunks. It seems Trunks simply wasn't strong enough to be worth it anymore. |
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| superperfectnerd | Oct 31 2017, 05:59 PM Post #13 |
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That doesn't stop Trunks from being stronger after his zenkai and recovery in the present than he was before because we're also supposed to think Goku and Vegeta are equal, Vegeta being a hundred times stronger in ssj2 than Goku isn't really implied before this either. Both are stupid but I think Trunks being improved after a full recovery is less stupid. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Oct 31 2017, 06:01 PM Post #14 |
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Was there anything that would suggest trunks can or can't get zenkais?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Oct 31 2017, 06:02 PM.
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| superperfectnerd | Oct 31 2017, 06:04 PM Post #15 |
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Trunks was surprised Vegeta didn't power up after recovery, so that implies Trunks himself does power up upon recovery.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Oct 31 2017, 06:04 PM.
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