Solid Snake

Oct 30 2017, 06:28 PM

Super Saiyan: 50x base

Super Saiyan 2: 2x Super Saiyan

Super Saiyan 3: 4x Super Saiyan 2

Super Saiyan God: 490,000x Super Saiyan 3

Super Saiyan Blue: 2x Super Saiyan God

(Anime) Blue Kaioken x10-20: 10-20x Super Saiyan Blue

(Manga) Completed Super Saiyan Blue: 400x Super Saiyan Blue

(Anime) Ultra Instinct "Omen": 60ish times Blue Kaioken x20

Saiyan36

Oct 30 2017, 08:07 PM

Solid Snake

Oct 30 2017, 06:28 PM

Super Saiyan: 50x base

Super Saiyan 2: 2x Super Saiyan

Super Saiyan 3: 4x Super Saiyan 2

Super Saiyan God: 490,000x Super Saiyan 3

Super Saiyan Blue: 2x Super Saiyan God

(Anime) Blue Kaioken x10-20: 10-20x Super Saiyan Blue

(Manga) Completed Super Saiyan Blue: 400x Super Saiyan Blue

(Anime) Ultra Instinct "Omen": 60ish times Blue Kaioken x20

Let's assume a Saiyan Begond God (from ROF) is a full-powered 'baseform'. When he manages to keep all that stool inside, manages to power up without leakge and transforms into mastered SSJ1,he automatically goes Blue, right?

So how can 50 x base be Super Saiyan 1? In that case Super Saiyan 1 would simply no longer exist and be altered into Blue.

Please explain.

Solid Snake

Oct 30 2017, 08:31 PM

Saiyan36

Oct 30 2017, 08:07 PM

Solid Snake

Oct 30 2017, 06:28 PM

Super Saiyan: 50x base

Super Saiyan 2: 2x Super Saiyan

Super Saiyan 3: 4x Super Saiyan 2

Super Saiyan God: 490,000x Super Saiyan 3

Super Saiyan Blue: 2x Super Saiyan God

(Anime) Blue Kaioken x10-20: 10-20x Super Saiyan Blue

(Manga) Completed Super Saiyan Blue: 400x Super Saiyan Blue

(Anime) Ultra Instinct "Omen": 60ish times Blue Kaioken x20

Let's assume a Saiyan Begond God (from ROF) is a full-powered 'baseform'. When he manages to keep all that stool inside, manages to power up without leakge and transforms into mastered SSJ1,he automatically goes Blue, right?

So how can 50 x base be Super Saiyan 1? In that case Super Saiyan 1 would simply no longer exist and be altered into Blue.

Please explain.

Well, in that case, we use the "two-base theory", which involves Goku and Vegeta both using bits of God ki in their base as opposed to regular ki. We know from statements that Saiyan Beyond God Goku is even stronger than when he fought Beerus. So we have:

BoG-Super Saiyan God Goku: 196,000,000
-Super Saiyan Post-God: 196,000,000-9,800,000,000

RoF-Goku: 1/Super Saiyan: 50/ Super Saiyan 2: 100/Super Saiyan 3: 400
-Saiyan Beyond God: 245,000,000-19,600,000,000
--Super Saiyan Blue: 12,250,000,000-980,000,000,000

All this, assuming we use the "two-base theory" that is. This is an example that follows the manga version of the RoF saga AND not the anime's version.

The anime version has Goku completely absorb Super Saiyan God's power and feeling into his Super Saiyan form, so Goku in his base from then on is only 50x weaker. And from there, we simply apply the SEG's multipliers, or your owns, as normal. Blue is a different matter though, after training with Whis, Goku and Vegeta learned to better utilized their God ki and discovered a transformation that ascended pass even Super Saiyan God's own divine power. Which I have as simply 2x the Red form.

This is how I look at it anyway.

ThePrinceOfSaiyans

Oct 30 2017, 09:08 PM

We don't have enough information to come a proper conclusion. All we know is that 10% of Blue's power is inferior to God's full power. That's the manga though. The anime makes no attempt to address how much stronger Blue is in comparison to God. It might be 50 times, seeing as how it doesn't seem to be covering Complete Blue, which is probably 50 times God in the manga.

Solid Snake

Oct 30 2017, 08:31 PM

Saiyan36

Oct 30 2017, 08:07 PM

Solid Snake

Oct 30 2017, 06:28 PM

Super Saiyan: 50x base

Super Saiyan 2: 2x Super Saiyan

Super Saiyan 3: 4x Super Saiyan 2

Super Saiyan God: 490,000x Super Saiyan 3

Super Saiyan Blue: 2x Super Saiyan God

(Anime) Blue Kaioken x10-20: 10-20x Super Saiyan Blue

(Manga) Completed Super Saiyan Blue: 400x Super Saiyan Blue

(Anime) Ultra Instinct "Omen": 60ish times Blue Kaioken x20

Let's assume a Saiyan Begond God (from ROF) is a full-powered 'baseform'. When he manages to keep all that stool inside, manages to power up without leakge and transforms into mastered SSJ1,he automatically goes Blue, right?

So how can 50 x base be Super Saiyan 1? In that case Super Saiyan 1 would simply no longer exist and be altered into Blue.

Please explain.

Well, in that case, we use the "two-base theory", which involves Goku and Vegeta both using bits of God ki in their base as opposed to regular ki. We know from statements that Saiyan Beyond God Goku is even stronger than when he fought Beerus. So we have:

BoG-Super Saiyan God Goku: 196,000,000
-Super Saiyan Post-God: 196,000,000-9,800,000,000

RoF-Goku: 1/Super Saiyan: 50/ Super Saiyan 2: 100/Super Saiyan 3: 400
-Saiyan Beyond God: 245,000,000-19,600,000,000
--Super Saiyan Blue: 12,250,000,000-980,000,000,000

All this, assuming we use the "two-base theory" that is. This is an example that follows the manga version of the RoF saga AND not the anime's version.

The anime version has Goku completely absorb Super Saiyan God's power and feeling into his Super Saiyan form, so Goku in his base from then on is only 50x weaker. And from there, we simply apply the SEG's multipliers, or your owns, as normal. Blue is a different matter though, after training with Whis, Goku and Vegeta learned to better utilized their God ki and discovered a transformation that ascended pass even Super Saiyan God's own divine power. Which I have as simply 2x the Red form.

This is how I look at it anyway.

Saiyan36

Oct 30 2017, 09:15 PM

Solid Snake

Oct 30 2017, 08:31 PM

Saiyan36

Oct 30 2017, 08:07 PM

Solid Snake

Oct 30 2017, 06:28 PM

Super Saiyan: 50x base

Super Saiyan 2: 2x Super Saiyan

Super Saiyan 3: 4x Super Saiyan 2

Super Saiyan God: 490,000x Super Saiyan 3

Super Saiyan Blue: 2x Super Saiyan God

(Anime) Blue Kaioken x10-20: 10-20x Super Saiyan Blue

(Manga) Completed Super Saiyan Blue: 400x Super Saiyan Blue

(Anime) Ultra Instinct "Omen": 60ish times Blue Kaioken x20

Let's assume a Saiyan Begond God (from ROF) is a full-powered 'baseform'. When he manages to keep all that stool inside, manages to power up without leakge and transforms into mastered SSJ1,he automatically goes Blue, right?

So how can 50 x base be Super Saiyan 1? In that case Super Saiyan 1 would simply no longer exist and be altered into Blue.

Please explain.

Well, in that case, we use the "two-base theory", which involves Goku and Vegeta both using bits of God ki in their base as opposed to regular ki. We know from statements that Saiyan Beyond God Goku is even stronger than when he fought Beerus. So we have:

BoG-Super Saiyan God Goku: 196,000,000
-Super Saiyan Post-God: 196,000,000-9,800,000,000

RoF-Goku: 1/Super Saiyan: 50/ Super Saiyan 2: 100/Super Saiyan 3: 400
-Saiyan Beyond God: 245,000,000-19,600,000,000
--Super Saiyan Blue: 12,250,000,000-980,000,000,000

All this, assuming we use the "two-base theory" that is. This is an example that follows the manga version of the RoF saga AND not the anime's version.

The anime version has Goku completely absorb Super Saiyan God's power and feeling into his Super Saiyan form, so Goku in his base from then on is only 50x weaker. And from there, we simply apply the SEG's multipliers, or your owns, as normal. Blue is a different matter though, after training with Whis, Goku and Vegeta learned to better utilized their God ki and discovered a transformation that ascended pass even Super Saiyan God's own divine power. Which I have as simply 2x the Red form.

This is how I look at it anyway.

I understand your point. It's perfectly reasonable.

You mean Super Saiyan 1 post-absorption = SSJG at least

He got used to the powers in that form. So divided by 50 makes his base form. From there the count starts all over again.

Following that theory Goku has no absolute Ki-forms in all forms, only in Blue.


In a sense i have interpreted the manga version, multiple base-theory, also for the anime. With that difference the absolute Ki-control is no Godly-Ki. He just established absolute Ki-control after Whis training, which in a sense equals Godly Ki because of the level of management. I thought that was the case because of the insane power differences, not only in Blue but also in his base form. But that was my way of trying to explain why there are so many power differences. I basically could only explain this with absolute Ki-control (not really God Ki but the anime counterpart). Also in the anime he first had to have complete control over his Ki to access Blue, so i thought he had acquired these skills also in his base, in a sense enabling him to access multiple power levels in his base.

superperfectnerd

Oct 31 2017, 02:49 AM

I really don't think the writers are thinking about it this hard, yes if base Vegetto is ssj3 Goku level (only says so in a guide and I doubt Toriyama wrote it or really even thought about it) and yes if Goku's statement that Vegetto wouldn't be enough meant a ssj3 version of him and not simply the super Vegetto he remembers then ssjg would have to be a ludicrous multiplier, so ludicrous it makes all other forms pointless.

Having said that I bet if you asked a writer if ssjg was 10,000 odd times ssj3 Goku, they'd say "no, that's crazy big".

Goku says Vegetto wouldn't be enough, true but Vegetto is a new person and Goku may not be completely sure he can just automatically go ssj2 and 3 with no practice. Remember when Goten and Trunks fused in base and couldn't go ssj? They had to fuse as ssjs until they practiced transforming as Gotenks in the ROSAT. Piccolo didn't even think it was possible for them to transform as Gotenks. I'm not saying Vegetto can't, I'm saying Goku can only be sure of the power he remembers feeling and I think that line was meant to make us remember ssj Vegetto's beating up Boohan, not some hypothetical ssj3 version of a character we've never seen. Most casual fans probably don't think like that.

Goku says Vegetto wouldn't be enough but ssjg wasn't enough either.

Goku also says that ssjg is a power he couldn't dream of reaching alone but Vegetto is not Goku alone, so it doesn't have to include his power as a version of Goku's own strength.

Beerus wanted to fight ssjg, ssjg was what he had dreamt about. Wishing for the knowledge, attaining the form and then fighting was the best chance they had at satisfying the god win or lose, even if ssjg isn't much stronger than super saiyan Vegetto.

ssjg being 10,000 ssj3 just really undermines everything that came before and a ssj2 Goku can move Jiren's head, then a multiplier of 40,000 times that makes him use a finger?