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Can you blame people who treated Africans like slaves?
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Topic Started: Oct 23 2017, 04:54 AM (2,252 Views)
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+ Ginyu
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Feb 5 2018, 10:18 PM
Post #31
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Eh... I'm not saying these people weren't bad, I'm just saying people aren't thinking about this enough. You look at the people in Syria and see how many of them end up with ISIS. Look at the ghetto and see how many of them turn into criminals. It's disproportionate compared to us. Why? Because they're just born as worse people? No, it's the environment they grew up in. If you're born in Syria, and you're parents are fundamentalist Muslims, and from day 1 you get spoon fed how Americans are literally the devil and they want to destroy and your creator literally wants them to burn for eternity. Eventually you'll become radical. But who knows, that same person born in downtown Manhattan to rich parents who called him John Smith might've become a volunteer to help the homeless. You can't expect everybody who has ever lived to live with the morals of a modern day western human being who grew up in a nice neighborhood. Am I saying slavery was good? No. Am I justifying what these people did? Of course not. I'm just saying this is a much more complex and interesting philosophical question than most of you dare to think it is.
It's the same that practically everyone these days are saying: Oh my, the Nazi's were so bad and evil! I never would've supported them. Well, guess what, more than a half of the Germans those days did support them. So either without explanation people in those days were born fundamentally ethically worse. Or environment is at play here.
That, in turn, begs the interesting question whether people, who were turned bad solely by environment, deserve to be blamed. And to prevent people from focusing only on Nazi's and slavers, I made the analogy with a hypothetical vegan communist future, to make sure people can relate to where I'm coming from. So yes lazerbem, my analogy did make sense, you just didn't understand it.
Edited by Ginyu, Feb 5 2018, 10:34 PM.
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halfbloodprince
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Feb 5 2018, 10:56 PM
Post #32
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- GinyuTokusentai
- Feb 5 2018, 10:18 PM
Eh... I'm not saying these people weren't bad, I'm just saying people aren't thinking about this enough. You look at the people in Syria and see how many of them end up with ISIS. Look at the ghetto and see how many of them turn into criminals. It's disproportionate compared to us. Why? Because they're just born as worse people? No, it's the environment they grew up in. If you're born in Syria, and you're parents are fundamentalist Muslims, and from day 1 you get spoon fed how Americans are literally the devil and they want to destroy and your creator literally wants them to burn for eternity. Eventually you'll become radical. But who knows, that same person born in downtown Manhattan to rich parents who called him John Smith might've become a volunteer to help the homeless. You can't expect everybody who has ever lived to live with the morals of a modern day western human being who grew up in a nice neighborhood. Am I saying slavery was good? No. Am I justifying what these people did? Of course not. I'm just saying this is a much more complex and interesting philosophical question than most of you dare to think it is.
It's the same that practically everyone these days are saying: Oh my, the Nazi's were so bad and evil! I never would've supported them. Well, guess what, more than a half of the Germans those days did support them. So either without explanation people in those days were born fundamentally ethically worse. Or environment is at play here.
That, in turn, begs the interesting question whether people, who were turned bad solely by environment, deserve to be blamed. And to prevent people from focusing only on Nazi's and slavers, I made the analogy with a hypothetical vegan communist future, to make sure people can relate to where I'm coming from. So yes lazerbem, my analogy did make sense, you just didn't understand it.
That's absolute garbage its no different than a black person saying that they grew up in a ghetto where they learned to rob and steal. does that mean we do not blame them for their actions because they grew up in a less fortunate environment? don't you know most black people grow up and are taught that the world is against them and thet they should always be careful because of "what happens to black men in this society"
we learn about the racism of the past and we still feel as though white people are racist to this day. but does that means people don't blame black people for being racist for growing up and being taught that everyone is out to get them? does it mean white people agree that blacks cant be racist? simply because they may have been provoked to racism by anger or the past simply because they may feel very strongly about the injustices that were never rectified does that mean you wouldn't blame them if they started a hate group? of course you would blame them. its not like the U.S is some peaceful community. we are still segregated whites live in better neighborhoods and blacks live in low in come housing as well as some whites.
i just find it odd that people call black people racist when all they are doing is responding to the racism they receive. but it doesn't stop people from blaming them but youre already ready to have empathy for vile soulless humans who committed unspeakable evil against their fellow human beings for centuries? like really?
we are talking about people who exploited others for their personal agendas. every white person didnt have slaves the ones that did could afford it. these were successful educated people. they did what they did not because it was or wasnt socially acceptable they did what they did for their own profit. they abused their fellow human beings for their own profit. nothing more to it than that. its not philosophical, wtf? its simple, they exploited and abused human beings simply because they could and had a vested interest in doing so.
these same people had no problem treating their fellow white men with respect so why would you try argue that these people had different cultural and social values? they did not. these people gave us our cultural values. they gave us the bill of rights, told us all men are created equal.
nothing in their culture instilled hate or superiority unlike the nazi's so your point doesnt follow. these were evil people doing evil period. they exploited other people for their personal gain its nothing more to it than that.
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Feb 5 2018, 11:07 PM
Post #33
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- Feb 5 2018, 10:56 PM
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- Feb 5 2018, 10:18 PM
Eh... I'm not saying these people weren't bad, I'm just saying people aren't thinking about this enough. You look at the people in Syria and see how many of them end up with ISIS. Look at the ghetto and see how many of them turn into criminals. It's disproportionate compared to us. Why? Because they're just born as worse people? No, it's the environment they grew up in. If you're born in Syria, and you're parents are fundamentalist Muslims, and from day 1 you get spoon fed how Americans are literally the devil and they want to destroy and your creator literally wants them to burn for eternity. Eventually you'll become radical. But who knows, that same person born in downtown Manhattan to rich parents who called him John Smith might've become a volunteer to help the homeless. You can't expect everybody who has ever lived to live with the morals of a modern day western human being who grew up in a nice neighborhood. Am I saying slavery was good? No. Am I justifying what these people did? Of course not. I'm just saying this is a much more complex and interesting philosophical question than most of you dare to think it is.
It's the same that practically everyone these days are saying: Oh my, the Nazi's were so bad and evil! I never would've supported them. Well, guess what, more than a half of the Germans those days did support them. So either without explanation people in those days were born fundamentally ethically worse. Or environment is at play here.
That, in turn, begs the interesting question whether people, who were turned bad solely by environment, deserve to be blamed. And to prevent people from focusing only on Nazi's and slavers, I made the analogy with a hypothetical vegan communist future, to make sure people can relate to where I'm coming from. So yes lazerbem, my analogy did make sense, you just didn't understand it.
That's absolute garbage is no different than a black person saying that they grew up in a ghetto were they learned to rob and steal but does that mean we do not blame them for their actions because they grew up in a less fortunate environment. don't you know most black people grow up and are taught that the world is against them and they they should always be careful because of "what happens to black men in this society" we learn about the racism of the past and we still feel as though white people are racist to this day. but does that means people don't blame black people for being racist for growing up and being taught that everyone is out to get them? does it mean white people agree that blacks cant be racist? simply because they may have been provoked to racism by anger or the past simply because they may feel very strongly about the injustices that were never rectified does that mean you wouldn't blame them if they started a hate group? of course you would blame them. its not like the U.S is some peaceful community. we are still segregated whites live in better neighborhoods and blacks live in low in come housing as well as some whites. i just find it odd that people call black people racist when all they are doing is responding to the racism they receive. but it doesn't stop people from blaming them but youre already ready to have empathy for vile soulless humans who committed unspeakable evil against their fellow human beings for centuries? like really? we are talking about people who exploited others for their personal agendas. every white person didnt have slaves the ones that did could afford it. these were successful educated people. they did what they did not because it was or wasnt socially acceptable they did what they did for their own profit. they abused their fellow human beings for the own profit. nothing more to it than that its not philosophical wtf? its simple the exploited and abused human beings simply because they could and had a vested interest in doing so. these same people had no problem treating their fellow white men with respect so why would you try argue that these people had different cultural and social values? they did not. these people gave us our cultural values. they gave us the bill of rights, told us all men are created equal. nothing in their culture instilled hate or superiority unlike the nazi's so your point doesnt follow. these were evil people doing evil period. they exploited other people for their personal gain its nothing more to it than that. Well your first rant about black people and current society had nothing to do with what I said or this topic so I won't respond to that.
As for the rest, you still don't seem to get what my point is. You can't say that the people who owned slaves had the exact same upbringing as the people who said that everyone was equal and gave you the bill of rights. Because... Well, they where completely different people that spent time in completely different environments that shaped them into completely different people.
I'm just going to summarize my point because you don't want to seem to see this in a complex way at all.
If someone is brainwashed into believing/doing bad things, can you blame them for it? Because you can't blame people for being brainwashed can you?
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Tinny
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Feb 5 2018, 11:08 PM
Post #34
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That, in turn, begs the interesting question whether people, who were turned bad solely by environment, deserve to be blamed. And to prevent people from focusing only on Nazi's and slavers, I made the analogy with a hypothetical vegan communist future, to make sure people can relate to where I'm coming from. So yes lazerbem, my analogy did make sense, you just didn't understand it.
Ginyu I also responded to yours, we're not talking about dietary choices, to put it another way, people don't condemn monarchies for believing in hereditary rule. This is different, slavery was invented and went against popular tradition and popular thought. It went against hundreds of years of both religion and general morality, it is unjustifiable in the way that only the slave trade that was perpetuated in the colonies can be. And again, these horrible acts are ultimately brought about by being banal. They're brought about because people don't think, people don't ask questions, people just sit back and get complacent, and whether or not you like it, this is a thing that we should combat and prevent. And that means it can't be a good enough excuse to "just be following orders" a la what so many people said during the Nuremberg trials. This is what i keep saying and people keep missing.
Slavery wasn't the default, it wasn't the norm, it went against public morality in every sense. Slavery only got 'normalized' afterword, and under those circumstances, along with the fact that during the high swings of the slave market, we also had humanism and the renaissance, even building beliefs questioning the validity of men ruling over other men, as well as huge amounts of people that did disagree with and condemn it at every level, (not just the US either, but in the Spanish empire as well, criticizing the encomienda system for how it treated them and saying they were losing God's favor, it's hardly just the Americans thinking that). It still continued, they always had the resources to educated themselves. They just never did so because it benefited them, and so them, like the Nazis, have both stained themselves morally.
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If someone is brainwashed into believing/doing bad things, can you blame them for it? Because you can't blame people for being brainwashed can you? A la North Korea no, I cannot. But the Nazis? Or the Colonial Slave Trade? This wasn't normal and was never unopposed. I won't say normal people can't do horrible things, but we shouldn't justify these things either, hell plenty have said that looking back on the days of the Nazis, they're ashamed they never did anything to combat it, instead burying their heads in sand and trying to ignore the atrocities of the government. Slavery, the renaissance, and the printing press all existed in mostly the same spots. They always had acess to this info, be it from books, their pastor, the Queen herself, etc.
Edited by Tinny, Feb 5 2018, 11:14 PM.
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halfbloodprince
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Feb 5 2018, 11:13 PM
Post #35
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- Feb 5 2018, 11:07 PM
- halfbloodprince
- Feb 5 2018, 10:56 PM
- GinyuTokusentai
- Feb 5 2018, 10:18 PM
Eh... I'm not saying these people weren't bad, I'm just saying people aren't thinking about this enough. You look at the people in Syria and see how many of them end up with ISIS. Look at the ghetto and see how many of them turn into criminals. It's disproportionate compared to us. Why? Because they're just born as worse people? No, it's the environment they grew up in. If you're born in Syria, and you're parents are fundamentalist Muslims, and from day 1 you get spoon fed how Americans are literally the devil and they want to destroy and your creator literally wants them to burn for eternity. Eventually you'll become radical. But who knows, that same person born in downtown Manhattan to rich parents who called him John Smith might've become a volunteer to help the homeless. You can't expect everybody who has ever lived to live with the morals of a modern day western human being who grew up in a nice neighborhood. Am I saying slavery was good? No. Am I justifying what these people did? Of course not. I'm just saying this is a much more complex and interesting philosophical question than most of you dare to think it is.
It's the same that practically everyone these days are saying: Oh my, the Nazi's were so bad and evil! I never would've supported them. Well, guess what, more than a half of the Germans those days did support them. So either without explanation people in those days were born fundamentally ethically worse. Or environment is at play here.
That, in turn, begs the interesting question whether people, who were turned bad solely by environment, deserve to be blamed. And to prevent people from focusing only on Nazi's and slavers, I made the analogy with a hypothetical vegan communist future, to make sure people can relate to where I'm coming from. So yes lazerbem, my analogy did make sense, you just didn't understand it.
That's absolute garbage is no different than a black person saying that they grew up in a ghetto were they learned to rob and steal but does that mean we do not blame them for their actions because they grew up in a less fortunate environment. don't you know most black people grow up and are taught that the world is against them and they they should always be careful because of "what happens to black men in this society" we learn about the racism of the past and we still feel as though white people are racist to this day. but does that means people don't blame black people for being racist for growing up and being taught that everyone is out to get them? does it mean white people agree that blacks cant be racist? simply because they may have been provoked to racism by anger or the past simply because they may feel very strongly about the injustices that were never rectified does that mean you wouldn't blame them if they started a hate group? of course you would blame them. its not like the U.S is some peaceful community. we are still segregated whites live in better neighborhoods and blacks live in low in come housing as well as some whites. i just find it odd that people call black people racist when all they are doing is responding to the racism they receive. but it doesn't stop people from blaming them but youre already ready to have empathy for vile soulless humans who committed unspeakable evil against their fellow human beings for centuries? like really? we are talking about people who exploited others for their personal agendas. every white person didnt have slaves the ones that did could afford it. these were successful educated people. they did what they did not because it was or wasnt socially acceptable they did what they did for their own profit. they abused their fellow human beings for the own profit. nothing more to it than that its not philosophical wtf? its simple the exploited and abused human beings simply because they could and had a vested interest in doing so. these same people had no problem treating their fellow white men with respect so why would you try argue that these people had different cultural and social values? they did not. these people gave us our cultural values. they gave us the bill of rights, told us all men are created equal. nothing in their culture instilled hate or superiority unlike the nazi's so your point doesnt follow. these were evil people doing evil period. they exploited other people for their personal gain its nothing more to it than that.
Well your first rant about black people and current society had nothing to do with what I said or this topic so I won't respond to that. As for the rest, you still don't seem to get what my point is. You can't say that the people who owned slaves had the exact same upbringing as the people who said that everyone was equal and gave you the bill of rights. Because... Well, they where completely different people that spent time in completely different environments that shaped them into completely different people. I'm just going to summarize my point because you don't want to seem to see this in a complex way at all. If someone is brainwashed into believing/doing bad things, can you blame them for it? Because you can't blame people for being brainwashed can you? that's exactly the point the people who signed the bill of rights saying we are all equal owned slaves themselves. they are one in the same, they were not brainwashed. that's the point. its not complex you are trying to make it complex. the people who founded America were trying to escape oppression in their native land in Britain. so you tell me what brainwashing did these people experience? the founding fathers where the same men who owned slaves. so like i said there was no radically different cultural or social values like you are trying to insinuate
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Feb 5 2018, 11:16 PM
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- Tinny
- Feb 5 2018, 11:08 PM
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That, in turn, begs the interesting question whether people, who were turned bad solely by environment, deserve to be blamed. And to prevent people from focusing only on Nazi's and slavers, I made the analogy with a hypothetical vegan communist future, to make sure people can relate to where I'm coming from. So yes lazerbem, my analogy did make sense, you just didn't understand it.
Ginyu I also responded to yours, we're not talking about dietary choices, to put it another way, people don't condemn monarchies for believing in hereditary rule. This is different, slavery was invented and went against popular tradition and popular thought. It went against hundreds of years of both religion and general morality, it is unjustifiable in the way that only the slave trade that was perpetuated in the colonies can be. And again, these horrible acts are ultimately brought about by being banal. They're brought about because people don't think, people don't ask questions, people just sit back and get complacent, and whether or not you like it, this is a thing that we should combat and prevent. And that means it can't be a good enough excuse to "just be following orders" a la what so many people said during the Nuremberg trials. This is what i keep saying and people keep missing. Slavery wasn't the default, it wasn't the norm, it went against public morality in every sense. Slavery only got 'normalized' afterword, and under those circumstances, along with the fact that during the high swings of the slave market, we also had humanism and the renaissance, even building beliefs questioning the validity of men ruling over other men, as well as huge amounts of people that did disagree with and condemn it at every level, (not just the US either, but in the Spanish empire as well, criticizing the encomienda system for how it treated them and saying they were losing God's favor, it's hardly just the Americans thinking that). It still continued, they always had the resources to educated themselves. They just never did so because it benefited them, and so them, like the Nazis, have both stained themselves morally. Well, I'm using something as silly as dietary choices on purpose, just so you realize that. I'm trying to make you guys relate so if my hypothetical future people sound stupid and silly, that's exactly the point.
Your entire points seems to boil down to that slavery wasn't the norm world wide. Which is a really good point to be fair, but still, it doesn't take away that it WAS the norm in the areas where it did take place. There were people who grew up under the idea that black people where inferior and nothing more than animals who were used best for unpaid manual labor. Those people were brainwashed and the discussion I'm trying to get going is whether you can blame them for THAT.
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Feb 5 2018, 11:21 PM
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- halfbloodprince
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that's exactly the point the people who signed the bill of rights saying we are all equal owned slaves themselves. they are one in the same, they were not brainwashed. that's the point. its not complex you are trying to make it complex. the people who founded America were trying to escape oppression in their native land in Britain. so you tell me what brainwashing did these people experience? the founding fathers where the same men who owned slaves. so like i said there was no radically different cultural or social values like you are trying to insinuate OK, so you do get that we're talking about a very broad system here that existed for a long time and involved a ton of people, and you're talking about a very selective group of individuals here right?
Not everybody who owned slaves was a founding father... What point are you trying to make? Some people realized it wasn't okay so therefore everybody knew it? Because that statement ties in lovely to my analogy.
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Tinny
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Feb 5 2018, 11:22 PM
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- Feb 5 2018, 11:08 PM
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That, in turn, begs the interesting question whether people, who were turned bad solely by environment, deserve to be blamed. And to prevent people from focusing only on Nazi's and slavers, I made the analogy with a hypothetical vegan communist future, to make sure people can relate to where I'm coming from. So yes lazerbem, my analogy did make sense, you just didn't understand it.
Ginyu I also responded to yours, we're not talking about dietary choices, to put it another way, people don't condemn monarchies for believing in hereditary rule. This is different, slavery was invented and went against popular tradition and popular thought. It went against hundreds of years of both religion and general morality, it is unjustifiable in the way that only the slave trade that was perpetuated in the colonies can be. And again, these horrible acts are ultimately brought about by being banal. They're brought about because people don't think, people don't ask questions, people just sit back and get complacent, and whether or not you like it, this is a thing that we should combat and prevent. And that means it can't be a good enough excuse to "just be following orders" a la what so many people said during the Nuremberg trials. This is what i keep saying and people keep missing. Slavery wasn't the default, it wasn't the norm, it went against public morality in every sense. Slavery only got 'normalized' afterword, and under those circumstances, along with the fact that during the high swings of the slave market, we also had humanism and the renaissance, even building beliefs questioning the validity of men ruling over other men, as well as huge amounts of people that did disagree with and condemn it at every level, (not just the US either, but in the Spanish empire as well, criticizing the encomienda system for how it treated them and saying they were losing God's favor, it's hardly just the Americans thinking that). It still continued, they always had the resources to educated themselves. They just never did so because it benefited them, and so them, like the Nazis, have both stained themselves morally.
Well, I'm using something as silly as dietary choices on purpose, just so you realize that. I'm trying to make you guys relate so if my hypothetical future people sound stupid and silly, that's exactly the point. Your entire points seems to boil down to that slavery wasn't the norm world wide. Which is a really good point to be fair, but still, it doesn't take away that it WAS the norm in the areas where it did take place. There were people who grew up under the idea that black people where inferior and nothing more than animals who were used best for unpaid manual labor. Those people were brainwashed and the discussion I'm trying to get going is whether you can blame them for THAT. More specifically, anywhere where slavery did take place, there was also opposition to it on moral and even religious levels. They were exposed to those ideas.
Edited by Tinny, Feb 5 2018, 11:22 PM.
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Feb 5 2018, 11:23 PM
Post #39
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- Tinny
- Feb 5 2018, 11:22 PM
- GinyuTokusentai
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- Feb 5 2018, 11:08 PM
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That, in turn, begs the interesting question whether people, who were turned bad solely by environment, deserve to be blamed. And to prevent people from focusing only on Nazi's and slavers, I made the analogy with a hypothetical vegan communist future, to make sure people can relate to where I'm coming from. So yes lazerbem, my analogy did make sense, you just didn't understand it.
Ginyu I also responded to yours, we're not talking about dietary choices, to put it another way, people don't condemn monarchies for believing in hereditary rule. This is different, slavery was invented and went against popular tradition and popular thought. It went against hundreds of years of both religion and general morality, it is unjustifiable in the way that only the slave trade that was perpetuated in the colonies can be. And again, these horrible acts are ultimately brought about by being banal. They're brought about because people don't think, people don't ask questions, people just sit back and get complacent, and whether or not you like it, this is a thing that we should combat and prevent. And that means it can't be a good enough excuse to "just be following orders" a la what so many people said during the Nuremberg trials. This is what i keep saying and people keep missing. Slavery wasn't the default, it wasn't the norm, it went against public morality in every sense. Slavery only got 'normalized' afterword, and under those circumstances, along with the fact that during the high swings of the slave market, we also had humanism and the renaissance, even building beliefs questioning the validity of men ruling over other men, as well as huge amounts of people that did disagree with and condemn it at every level, (not just the US either, but in the Spanish empire as well, criticizing the encomienda system for how it treated them and saying they were losing God's favor, it's hardly just the Americans thinking that). It still continued, they always had the resources to educated themselves. They just never did so because it benefited them, and so them, like the Nazis, have both stained themselves morally.
Well, I'm using something as silly as dietary choices on purpose, just so you realize that. I'm trying to make you guys relate so if my hypothetical future people sound stupid and silly, that's exactly the point. Your entire points seems to boil down to that slavery wasn't the norm world wide. Which is a really good point to be fair, but still, it doesn't take away that it WAS the norm in the areas where it did take place. There were people who grew up under the idea that black people where inferior and nothing more than animals who were used best for unpaid manual labor. Those people were brainwashed and the discussion I'm trying to get going is whether you can blame them for THAT.
More specifically, anywhere where slavery did take place, there was also opposition to it on moral and even religious levels. They were exposed to those ideas. Just as we are exposed to animal cruelty and veganism.
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Tinny
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Feb 5 2018, 11:59 PM
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- Silver Spoon, Fate/Zero, Legend of Galactic Heroes, Space Patrol Luluco, Psycho-pass, Miss Kobayashi
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- GinyuTokusentai
- Feb 5 2018, 11:23 PM
- Tinny
- Feb 5 2018, 11:22 PM
- GinyuTokusentai
- Feb 5 2018, 11:16 PM
- Tinny
- Feb 5 2018, 11:08 PM
- Quote:
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That, in turn, begs the interesting question whether people, who were turned bad solely by environment, deserve to be blamed. And to prevent people from focusing only on Nazi's and slavers, I made the analogy with a hypothetical vegan communist future, to make sure people can relate to where I'm coming from. So yes lazerbem, my analogy did make sense, you just didn't understand it.
Ginyu I also responded to yours, we're not talking about dietary choices, to put it another way, people don't condemn monarchies for believing in hereditary rule. This is different, slavery was invented and went against popular tradition and popular thought. It went against hundreds of years of both religion and general morality, it is unjustifiable in the way that only the slave trade that was perpetuated in the colonies can be. And again, these horrible acts are ultimately brought about by being banal. They're brought about because people don't think, people don't ask questions, people just sit back and get complacent, and whether or not you like it, this is a thing that we should combat and prevent. And that means it can't be a good enough excuse to "just be following orders" a la what so many people said during the Nuremberg trials. This is what i keep saying and people keep missing. Slavery wasn't the default, it wasn't the norm, it went against public morality in every sense. Slavery only got 'normalized' afterword, and under those circumstances, along with the fact that during the high swings of the slave market, we also had humanism and the renaissance, even building beliefs questioning the validity of men ruling over other men, as well as huge amounts of people that did disagree with and condemn it at every level, (not just the US either, but in the Spanish empire as well, criticizing the encomienda system for how it treated them and saying they were losing God's favor, it's hardly just the Americans thinking that). It still continued, they always had the resources to educated themselves. They just never did so because it benefited them, and so them, like the Nazis, have both stained themselves morally.
Well, I'm using something as silly as dietary choices on purpose, just so you realize that. I'm trying to make you guys relate so if my hypothetical future people sound stupid and silly, that's exactly the point. Your entire points seems to boil down to that slavery wasn't the norm world wide. Which is a really good point to be fair, but still, it doesn't take away that it WAS the norm in the areas where it did take place. There were people who grew up under the idea that black people where inferior and nothing more than animals who were used best for unpaid manual labor. Those people were brainwashed and the discussion I'm trying to get going is whether you can blame them for THAT.
More specifically, anywhere where slavery did take place, there was also opposition to it on moral and even religious levels. They were exposed to those ideas.
Just as we are exposed to animal cruelty and veganism. Yes, and animal cruelty is recognized as wrong, and there's ultimately no justification for the cruelty that is done to the animals in the name of profit.
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halfbloodprince
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Feb 6 2018, 03:50 PM
Post #41
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- Posts:
- 60
- Group:
- Member
- Member
- #14,244
- Joined:
- February 5, 2018
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- GinyuTokusentai
- Feb 5 2018, 11:23 PM
- Tinny
- Feb 5 2018, 11:22 PM
- GinyuTokusentai
- Feb 5 2018, 11:16 PM
- Tinny
- Feb 5 2018, 11:08 PM
- Quote:
-
That, in turn, begs the interesting question whether people, who were turned bad solely by environment, deserve to be blamed. And to prevent people from focusing only on Nazi's and slavers, I made the analogy with a hypothetical vegan communist future, to make sure people can relate to where I'm coming from. So yes lazerbem, my analogy did make sense, you just didn't understand it.
Ginyu I also responded to yours, we're not talking about dietary choices, to put it another way, people don't condemn monarchies for believing in hereditary rule. This is different, slavery was invented and went against popular tradition and popular thought. It went against hundreds of years of both religion and general morality, it is unjustifiable in the way that only the slave trade that was perpetuated in the colonies can be. And again, these horrible acts are ultimately brought about by being banal. They're brought about because people don't think, people don't ask questions, people just sit back and get complacent, and whether or not you like it, this is a thing that we should combat and prevent. And that means it can't be a good enough excuse to "just be following orders" a la what so many people said during the Nuremberg trials. This is what i keep saying and people keep missing. Slavery wasn't the default, it wasn't the norm, it went against public morality in every sense. Slavery only got 'normalized' afterword, and under those circumstances, along with the fact that during the high swings of the slave market, we also had humanism and the renaissance, even building beliefs questioning the validity of men ruling over other men, as well as huge amounts of people that did disagree with and condemn it at every level, (not just the US either, but in the Spanish empire as well, criticizing the encomienda system for how it treated them and saying they were losing God's favor, it's hardly just the Americans thinking that). It still continued, they always had the resources to educated themselves. They just never did so because it benefited them, and so them, like the Nazis, have both stained themselves morally.
Well, I'm using something as silly as dietary choices on purpose, just so you realize that. I'm trying to make you guys relate so if my hypothetical future people sound stupid and silly, that's exactly the point. Your entire points seems to boil down to that slavery wasn't the norm world wide. Which is a really good point to be fair, but still, it doesn't take away that it WAS the norm in the areas where it did take place. There were people who grew up under the idea that black people where inferior and nothing more than animals who were used best for unpaid manual labor. Those people were brainwashed and the discussion I'm trying to get going is whether you can blame them for THAT.
More specifically, anywhere where slavery did take place, there was also opposition to it on moral and even religious levels. They were exposed to those ideas.
Just as we are exposed to animal cruelty and veganism. of course not everyone who owned slaves was a founding father duh. the point is that there were no radically different social or cultural values. they simply exploited others for their labor. i mean i don't know why you are trying to make it more complicated than what it is. they were simply lazy slave drivers who needed slaves for manuel labor and in order to justify this they came up with the lie that whites were superior to their slaves. do you get the point? obviously slavery came before the lie of superiority not after. and no, the point is some people never had to realize it wasn't ok, its obviously not ok. its not JUST slavery we are talking about because slavery entails a lot. like rape for instance and slaves were raped, beaten, killed. that's what you are trying to justify. youre actually sitting at your computer saying that people ACTUALLY thought it was ok to beat, rape, kill, sale, starve and also force labor with no pay? well that cause your own moral compass into question. those people knew what they were doing was wrong they simply made excuses to justify what they did. they knew it wasn't right to kill, rape and beat people. they even raped them men in order to dominate them and humiliate them in front of their families. the system of slavery wasn't carried out by a bunch of misguided brainwashed fools who couldn't think for themselves like you seem to think. these are people who meticulously broke down the moral and self worth of the slaves. they were smart and knew what they were doing. they even had breeding houses where they would breed slaves so they didn't have to import more. they also raped the slaves even while they were married to their white wives. they even disowned their own children. they didn't think what they were doing was right under any circumstance they knew they were vile and disgusting. any descent human being knows that those things are wrong.
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