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| GT or Super? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 9 2017, 02:21 PM (6,055 Views) | |
| Southern Gothic | Oct 18 2017, 06:16 PM Post #76 |
Dilly Dilly
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GT for me but I do admit nostalgia is a big factor. Also a lot of the character design and world building just appeals to me more. |
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| Mike XL | Oct 18 2017, 06:16 PM Post #77 |
 
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I didn't mind the Garlic Jr arc. I also enjoyed that the movie and the arc, while not canon, could theoretically fit into the series without creating a contradiction. Was also fun to see some non Goku characters get some shine. |
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Oct 18 2017, 06:34 PM Post #78 |
魔王子
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The Super 17 arc has some decent action, and is ultimately inoffensive. That's more to offer than a few lines of a dialogue and some bimbo's cleavage. |
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| Zorcman | Oct 18 2017, 06:46 PM Post #79 |
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It's basically Fukkatsu no F but worse where Gero gets brought back to be sent to the trash heap, Goku Time is in full effect to the point where Vegeta becomes stronger than Oob only to be fodder to Goku's lower form and Krillin dies a pointless death while all logic established in Z gets defied (Cell and Freeza are immortal, the villains somehow are not and possess living bodies). That's far less "inoffensive" than Garlic Jr coming back a hundred times stronger in my view. And again, that's all happening in an arc that's "canon" to the GT series. Garlic Jr. is so unimportant that Kai outright skipped it when they even showed Goku vs. Paikkon in the Cell saga ending. |
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Oct 18 2017, 07:01 PM Post #80 |
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魔王子
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A worse version of Resurrection 'F' is still better than the Garlic Jr. Arc. IMO, and to be frank, I'm not sure I'd say it's worse. The big problem with Resurrection 'F' is Freeza's strength. Super 17's strength actually makes some degree of sense, given that Hell Fighter No. 17 is a super powered up version of No. 17 made to complete the original to make a super Artificial Human. Far more believable than oh, Freeza has a lot of potential, so 4 months of training ought to bring it all out. I don't believe Goku and Vegeta are significantly stronger than everyone else in their lower forms. I attribute Vegeta's ability to last longer than Oob to his drive, and I attribute Goku's performance to Super 17 toying with him, given Super 17 outright says he's doing that after he stops f***ing around. Kuririn's death isn't really pointless, it serves as a good motivator for No. 18's role in the story, and it also reinforces No. 18's relationship with Kuririn, which I appreciate. Eh, Freeza and Cell's ability regenerate doesn't really defy any logic set forth by Z. We do know that dead bodies are more durable, so one could assume that to kill a dead person, you'd need to atomize the body. I find the Garlic Jr. Arc offensive because Maron is genuinely annoying, whereas I wouldn't classify anything in the Super 17 arc as annoying. |
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| Zorcman | Oct 18 2017, 07:11 PM Post #81 |
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Dead bodies being self-regenerating or infinitely more durable wasn't stated, only that they have greater stamina. Goku getting exhausted after fighting Vegeta while dead, and Vegeta getting the s*** kicked out of him by Kid Boo and ending up a pile of pulp go against that if anything. Furthermore the series actually says that the two can't die and they had to be frozen to be defeated so the explanation is bunk anyway IMO. The fights here also made no sense. Even if assuming Vegeta had more drive, we saw how miserably SSJ3 Goku fared compared to Oob against Baby so him and SSJ1 Goku faring better than him is still MarySue Trunks tier BS. Kuririn's "death" also fails to have meaning when Goku didn't even know about it until 2 minutes before S17 died, so all it really achieved was 18 arriving to his rescue. I could point out more flaws of the arc (such as 17 being Gero's ultimate weapon when we know he's weaker than even 16 in all timelines) but it'd be faster to just say I found a dull and pointless arc where we saw Gohan actually shine and the side characters handle things without Goku around better than a combined rip of the Androids and Janemba arcs that's way worse than either one. Garlic Jr. is filler but the S17 saga is one giant plot hole thrown in to create an incoherent bridge to the dragons arc, and was executed a lot worse. All of the heroes are complete idiots in S17 and make you cringe, but the Garlic Jr. arc is at least more or less on the level of pre-22nd training filler or bio-Broly, which are slightly more tolerable than S17 eh. Edited by Zorcman, Oct 18 2017, 07:15 PM.
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Oct 18 2017, 07:36 PM Post #82 |
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魔王子
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That's fair, you got me there, but it is possible that those in Hell specifically have the ability, given that regenerating limbs would be useful in the case of torture. Eh, it's pretty much par for the course with this series. Those with drive typically last longer. I mean, look at Goku vs Hirudegarn. I think we can all agree that Goku is weaker than Ultimate Gohan, yet look at him, tanking punches as a Super Saiyan 3, where Gohan couldn't. Well it's a good thing Kuririn's death isn't pivotal for Goku then? I specifically said it was good motivation for No. 18, and for someone complaining about Goku Time, I would think No. 18 being a partially responsible for Super 17's defeat would be a good thing. As I pointed out, Hell Fighter No. 17 is significantly stronger than the original, and was built to complete the original. Eh, it fed into the Evil Dragons arc. It was stated that part of the reason the Dragon Balls were acting up was because of the merger between Hell and the living realm. I don't see how the Super 17 arc is a giant plot hole. It's set up in a way that makes sense within the context of the anime's version of the afterlife. I can't really recall anyone doing anything particularly idiotic aside from Goku being reckless with his energy against Super 17. Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Oct 18 2017, 07:47 PM.
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| Zorcman | Oct 18 2017, 07:48 PM Post #83 |
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Eh, the drive thing I'd agree with on occasions like Goku surviving preposterous attacks while in base but they usually contradict it within seconds like how Vegeta didn't last half as long without SSJ4 even when he had greater drive in the final showdown, so it's still a pretty weak explanation imo. There's lots of idiocy to go around like Goten and Trunks not fusing when they entertained the idea against Baby, and even in accordance with the anime's afterlife it doesn't make much sense for people to come back to life because they escaped Hell (in M12 they were still dead iirc, and ceased to exist again when Janemba died). We could go at this forever so I agree to disagree. The S17 arc making the androids beings with organic ki is asstrash (and makes Goku feeding S17 ki even dumber) as is almost every plot decision in it, and I find that the greater affront than a pointless filler with shallow fanservice. Edited by Zorcman, Oct 18 2017, 07:52 PM.
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Oct 18 2017, 07:55 PM Post #84 |
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魔王子
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I mean, I'm willing to concede it's weak, but Toei specific material in general isn't exactly well thought out most of the time. Well, they came directly from Hell, so my head canon for that would simply be the immortality effect seemingly granted to them by Hell preserved them so to speak. No, I don't think Movie 12 addresses what happens to those that were defeated again by Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. We do see Enma going back to judging souls after the check-in station is fixed though. Fair enough. |
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| Zorcman | Oct 18 2017, 08:03 PM Post #85 |
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They weren't actually immortal though, Nappa and the others who died were just sent to Enma like any recently dead person which is self-contradicting while M12 showed Freeza with a halo and all that. GT treats the villains who escaped as being "alive" (with it never being implied Myu would be gone when the issue is fixed) while they're basically zombies in M12. |
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Oct 18 2017, 08:40 PM Post #86 |
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魔王子
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Not exactly. Even before Hell was opened, the villains didn't have Halos. It seems to be an aesthetic change. |
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| Zorcman | Oct 19 2017, 03:48 PM Post #87 |
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But it was established in Z that if you die again while dead, youre gone for good. Not the case here with Nappa and the others 
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Oct 19 2017, 08:41 PM Post #88 |
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魔王子
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Well, again, those Hell might be a special case, considering immortality would be useful for torture. I'm not sure why they'd end up on Snake Way again, but whatever. I imagine Freeza and the others weren't permanently killed in Movie 12. |
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| Blood Falcon | Oct 23 2017, 12:31 AM Post #89 |
 
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Interesting topic, considering they both have their faults. I'm actually re-watching all of GT subbed right now. Back when it first aired on Toonami, Dragon ball GT was awesome. It was uniquely different but still had that Dragon Ball Z-esque feel to it. The Super Saiyan 4 introduction was incredible. I love the form's appearance, in regards to the Great Ape (Oozaru). It's a great callback to the Saiyan's original transformation and/or primitive nature. But in this case they gain control over that Great Ape form, albeit Golden form but nonetheless it's an interesting concept. The Baby Saga was fantastic but the one thing I didn't like was how they created Majuub simply to dismiss him. They made it seem like he let himself be eaten, but it didn't appear as such, back when he was fighting Baby. And they missed a perfectly good opportunity to show off an Adult Gotenks, because Goku (now with SSJ4) has to hog all of that precious screen time. The Android 17 saga was completely out of nowhere. Especially when the revived Android 17 gave energy to Goku for the Super Spirit Bomb, in the fight with Kid Buu. Now all of a sudden he's back to being a bad guy. Dr.Myuu and Dr.Gero teaming up is pretty interesting though, that actually made a lot of sense. But all they do is create a new Android 17, which can fuse with the old one. The concept for Super 17 is great but the execution was kind of lackluster. How in the world can you create an Android in Hell? Where did they even get the parts necessary. I know Dr. Myuu was some kind of Machine Mutant but unless he can create spare machine parts; that just made no sense to me. Just the same when Piccolo decided to stay trapped in Hell. Kid Goku never going SSJ2 (but once) when he could have easily beaten Rildo with it. Vegeta never transforming into anything other than SSJ1?! Pan being utterly useless any time she fought anyone. Yet, she's also part Saiyan but never goes Super Saiyan. Vegeta transforming into SSJ4 without a tail was kind of dumb. And why they changed the 10x Kamehameha when it began as a blue-wave attack (against Great Ape Baby). Forgetting to make Ultimate Gohan, unless the lack of training made the form no longer accessible. The writers suddenly forgetting that Kid Goku's Gi was already ripped and damaged before going SSJ4 against Super 17, then it somehow repairs itself when he loses the form and goes back to base. There are probably a ton of others I can't think of now but those were definitely the ones I noticed many times. Here is what I didn't like about Super: When they brought back Vegito, it was nothing but a complete retcon. You can't just suddenly change the effect of the Potara earrings when at first you say its effect is supposed to be permanent, that's just bulls***. And I get that the effect lasts permanently for Supreme Kai's but Elder Kai never specified this when he first told Goku. So the writers used this to put Vegito back into the series (even if it was just for one episode). He didn't even finish the fight. Defused after 10 minutes and then Trunks had to finish off Zamasu with a Spirit Bo-- I mean Spirit Sword of Hope (or whatever). Hey, while you're add it why not make Gogeta canon too, that'd be swell. Also, they took the whole stamina draining effect (in regards to SSJ Blue) straight from the manga. It had never really been a factor which was taken into consideration, until the Tournament of Power, where as the manga made it very clear much earlier on. He could have easily substituted the SSJ God for Blue in any of their previous fights, but it's clear that the writers didn't think about it. And the many times Goku and Vegeta went back and forth through time just to fight Zamasu and Black. That could have easily just been put together so the fight itself lasted longer, that whole "I forgot the senzu beans" crap was just absolute garbage. Total waste of time fighting them on three separate occasions. So for all it's cracked up to be, DBS really is a hit-and-miss sometimes. Again, not DBS hate but stuff that shouldn't be overlooked when analyzing the nature of the series as a whole, especially when it concerns the overall fanbase who grew up with the series. Both of them (as a whole) are terrible in their own way. But I do like how different GT was compared to Super. It literally takes place several years after the events in Z, while Super just looks like it takes place an episode or two later. Everyone has grown up and Vegeta has a moustache (cringe-worthy) but nonetheless it was a huge time-jump. Now the only ridiculous argument is which form is superior SSJ4 or SSJ Blue, SSJ4 Gogeta vs SSJ Blue Vegito. That argument will go on for eternity just like the stupid Superman vs Goku. There's no clear winner because the power scaling in Super is all over the place. You just can't compare two completely different levels of power. Now if you asked me about the DB Super manga, I'd say that beats both Super (anime) and GT hands down. It fills in a lot of plot holes and has a lot more to offer, in terms of how consistent it's been. I quite like it. Edited by Blood Falcon, Oct 23 2017, 12:38 AM.
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| GeeksetPodcast | Oct 24 2017, 11:54 PM Post #90 |
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Z > Super > DB > GT Only good thing about GT was Super Saiyan 4 form and Baby (The form not the arc) |
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