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Why do people hate GT?
Topic Started: Sep 14 2017, 06:03 PM (2,204 Views)
stebbinsd
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I've known for years that Dragon Ball fans tend to hold GT in more than a little contempt. But honestly, I never understood why.

There are plotholes a plenty in GT.
Ok, sure. But there are just as many plotholes and inconsistencies in the main series: http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_inconsistencies

What makes GT's inconsistencies any more notorious?

Goku as a kid
Yeah ... so what? It's not like the show itself pretended this wasn't a big deal! It's not like everyone was like ''oh cool, Goku's back to the way he used to be!'' The other characters were repeatedly floored by the revelation that Goku was de-aged!

Besides, it's not like the show reverted his character back to a child! Then, I could totally understand people getting pissed off at undoing all the character development Goku underwent! But no, he retains all his memories. He's not the naive little boy who form the Pilaf Saga who doesn't understand that they're in danger until Bulma or Oolong specifically tells him so, or who can't distinguish sex unless he touches their crotch. He's still the hardened, seasoned warrior he was as an adult, just in a smaller body!

It's not canon
Canon to what, exactly?! Not canon to the original Japanese manga?

You know what else isn't “canon” to the original Japanese Dragon Ball Manga? Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory! Does that mean that ISN'T one of the greatest movies of all time?! No, of course not! That movie is flipping awesome!

Seriously ... what exactly is fans' obsession with “canon?” I couldn't care less of a story is “canon” to the manga, canon to the TV show, canon to a previous movie's story arc, or canon to my butthole! A good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story is a good story IS A GOOD STORY!

So let's talk about all the various things GT actually did well, in my opinion!

Proper closure to the series
To me, the Majin Buu saga always seemed like a poor time to end the series, mostly because the ending just came out of nowhere! Goku on numerous occasions gave us every indication that the series would continue after the Buu Saga, like when he explained why he didn't just beat Majin Buu as SS3, or shooting down Piccolo's suggestion of using the Hyperbolic Time chamber. Then Goku flies off to train a successor, opening the door for another story arc ... only for the series to spontaneously end right there!

With GT, it made sense that the series had to end at the conclusion of the Shadow Dragon Saga. I mean ... how could it NOT end there! Even if more stories were to be told in this universe, they couldn't be called ''Dragon Ball,'' like with Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. For the first time, the series had reached genuine closure!

A sympathetic villain
Most of the villains in Dragon Ball are fairly one-dimensional. They either want to rule the world/galaxy/universe for its own sake, or they just want to destroy ti because destroying is just what they do. The closest the main series gets to a sympathetic villain is Fat Buu, who gets mixed up with the wrong crowd but is quick to change his ways once he has it explained to him that killing is wrong. But that only goes so far when Fat Buu quickly gets shoved to the side for Super Buu, and there's nothing sympathetic about him.

GT, however, breaks this trend something fierce! Baby is the series' first (and so far, only) “main villain” (as opposed to a villain who eventually gets overshadowed by the actual Big Bad, like Androids 17 and 18) who is truly sympathetic! Baby isn't seeking revenge against Goku because Goku once stopped his evil schemes, like Dr. Gero or Piccolo Jr. He wants to murder and/or mind control the saiyans because the saiyans killed his home race! And unlike Dr. Gero or Piccolo Jr., Baby's race who serve as the basis of his villain motivation were actually innocent! They were a technologically-advanced, peace-loving race, and the saiyans wanted to evict them from their home, so they just got slaughtered because the saiyans at the time were pure unadulterated barbarians.

So far, not even Super has created a villain who's quite as sympathetic. Beerus might be a force of nature, but as Elder Kai put it, “the inevitability of his existence does not give meaning to what he does.” Goku Black initially pretended to have a somewhat sympathetic motivation, but then it turns out he's just an evil deity who's impersonating Goku so he can conduct his totally-not-sympathetic evil plans. Thus far, Baby is easily the most sympathetic “Big Bad” the series has ever had!

Worldbuilding behind the dragon balls
So why are the Dragon Balls scattered across the planet after a wish is made? If you insist on ignoring GT, the main series doesn't really provide an answer to that. We just accept that as a means of ensuring that the heroes have to go on an adventure to obtain the balls. Justifying their scattering is purely an excuse for storytelling convenience.

There are plenty of plot points in the series that don't have an explanation, but we accept for the sake of keeping the drama alive.

Why are senzu beans always in such short supply?
So the eternal dragon can't kill enemies whose power exceeds that of the Dragon Balls' creator. Well, can't he just be wished to teleport the saiyans into the center of a freaking STAR?!

And there are plenty of other examples, besides these.

The beginning of the Shadow Dragon Saga provides us with an in-universe explanation as to why the Dragon Balls are scattered across the planet after each wish! Now it makes sense!

Villains teaming up
Frieza and Cell. Now there's a pair of villains who you'd think all of Hell wouldn't be big enough to contain these two egoes ... and yet, here they are in the Super 17 Saga, really putting their differences aside and really, really working as a well-oiled machine!

And they're really good together! They actually have some great chemistry as a team! Maybe that's because Cell has some of Frieza's cells and he knows what makes Frieza tick, but the fact remains that these two egomaniacs really click together far better than their individual egos would have you believe!

Even better, they're actually willingly taking a backseat as pawns in another villain's plan. They choose to stay behind in Hell, giving up their opportunity to return to the world of the living, just to provide a distraction to Goku so Dr. Myuu's plans can go off without a hitch.

Speaking of Dr. Myuu, my next point: Him and Dr. Gero teaming up! This is something we never really see in the main series. One could argue that it's only because of Dr. Myuu's betrayal of Dr. Gero that ultimately leads to his downfall, as this betrayal is followed soon after by Super 17 betraying Dr. Myuu.

The closest we get to a pair of villains teaming up in the main series is Pilaf and King Piccolo, but even then, they're clearly not partners. Piccolo is clearly large and in charge, plus he's quick to betray Pilaf when he decides he doesn't need him anymore.

The Shadow Dragons, and their Powers & Personalities
So a few years ago, I created this section on the Dragon Ball Wiki …

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_Dragon#Personalities_and_powers

… where I explained how the Shadow Dragons have inverse personalities to the selfishness or selflessness of the wishes that created them, and their powers directly corresponded to the strength behind those wishes. It was my attempt, many years ago, to defend GT by explaining how the Shadow Dragons were such a perfect fit, from a thematic standpoint, to the Dragon Ball mythos.

Since then, it definitely looks like other fans have taken this idea and ran with with. They have since expanded this section to add more and more thematic and symbollic significance to each of the Shadow Dragons, pointing out how Haze's power of pollution was symbollic of Bora's being one with nature, or how Naturon's powers of possession mirrored Babidi's need to rely on mind-controlled warriors to protect him.

It makes me feel good that I created a sub-sect of the Dragon Ball fandom who analyzes and expands upon ideas that I originally planted all those years ago! :D

So the fact that other fans are expanding upon the ideas I planted just goes to show that my ideas weren't flukes; the Shadow Dragons really are a proper thematic contribution to the Dragon Ball mythos if you actually think about it, and don't just go “oh, it's not canon so it doesn't count!”

So why do people hate GT so much? And I want it to be something more than just “it isn't canon,” because that's NOT an excuse!
Edited by stebbinsd, Sep 14 2017, 06:29 PM.
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It's dreadfully boring. I've never been able to actually sit through the Black Star DB arc without losing all interest. Baby arc is alright and has some good moments, but it's followed up by an incoherent mess called the Super 17 arc that's just awful. The Shadow Dragons were a really cool concept with poor execution. Having Goku and Pan go off to fight them all was a terrible decision, and some of the dragons are just plain boring. The ending is decent enough, I guess. In all honesty though, I can't sit through more than 1-2 episodes of it without losing all interest. It's just boring.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to level at it, but I get the impression that the hate GT receives is mostly a result of two factors working in tandem, those being Dragon Ball fatigue and the band wagon effect. By the time GT had reared its head, both in the West and Japan, we were already subject to a ton of Dragon Ball material, so much so, I'd wager that most people were getting tired of the series. In Japan's case, there were 153 episodes of Dragon Ball, 3 Dragon Ball films, 291 episodes of Z, 2 TV specials, and 13 Dragon Ball Z movies. The West also had the disadvantage of re-runs and licensing issues aplenty. This fatigue made it all the easier to scoff at GT, and the stigma it built up as a result of that created said band wagon effect. GT certainly isn't great, but I don't think it's bad either, certainly nowhere near as bad as people suggest it is at least.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Sep 14 2017, 08:01 PM.
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stebbinsd
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Sep 14 2017, 06:45 PM
an incoherent mess called the Super 17 arc that's just awful.
To be fair, the Super 17 Saga was primarily a transition saga. The heroes needed a reason to gather up the dragon balls to lead us into the Shadow Dragon Saga, so they needed the earth to get ravaged.

That's why the saga was so short. It was only 8 episodes, only half the length of the Shadow Dragon Saga.
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stebbinsd
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ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Sep 14 2017, 07:50 PM
The West also had the disadvantage of re-runs and licensing issues aplenty.
For me personally, the abundance of re-runs was one of the biggest reasons WHY I was so excited for GT to finally get dubbed in English! Finally, something new! Finally, an actual CONTINUATION of the story!

Remember, as I said in my OP, I was disappointed that the series ended at the conclusion of the Buu Saga, despite that saga giving us every indication that the story would continue. Also as I said in my OP, GT gave me the closer the Buu Saga was so sorely lacking. That's one of the biggest reasons I love GT and think it's so underrated.
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That's you though, I'm sure there were plenty of people who were already getting tired of Dragon Ball before the Majin Boo arc ended.
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Well, I don't know about Japan because that was all the way back in 1996 and 1996 was a different time here in the US let alone in Japan.

The short answer I have is that is isn't DBZ.

We got DBZ here first, and everybody built their standards around that. When Dragon Ball came out here, finally, a lot of people found it boring even if they thought it was interesting to see Son Gokuh's roots and stuff. And so there's the same problem with DBGT only this isn't Son Gokuh's roots this time, its the future. Son Gokuh becoming a kid was a big problem for a lot of people since they were used to seeing Son Gokuh as an adult and its not as masculine a form as these people wanted Son Gokuh to be represented by. To this day you see lots of complaints about him becoming a kid. And then, yeah, there's a big problem from a lot of people about the beginning of GT. It was far more Dragon Ball esque, and all the parts of it liked by nobody here who grew up on DBZ. Another common complaint seen a lot is Pan. And, well, it makes sense. She's the opposite type of character that these people want in their DBZ. Another character that isn't a masculine and "badass" fighter. Not only is she a child, she's a female, and she's getting about as much screen time as Son Gokuh and more than most of the other fighters.

The American dub of DBZ makes it look more like a high-octane, action, science-fiction thriller than it actually is. Yes, it is an action and science fiction series but its also not as extreme as the dub makes it out to be. Ever seen a western advert for DBZ? That about sums up how the fan base looks at it. Now compare and contrast that with how Japan advertises it.

It did have its fans when it first came out here but it was clear, here we had by and large rejected it.
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I can't really speak much for the east, but the west (us Americans) got a really s***ty version of GT. The FUNimation dub was simply atrocious. Pan was turned into a crying shrew, something she was not in the original; the odd hip-hop soundtrack was ill-advised (although I enjoy Menza's tracks for the most part) and Faulconer was completely absent, which burned a lot of fans who were used to his non-stop tracks; a lot of narrative statements were either changed or outright omitted for no reason, leaving the Japanese fans with an inherent advantage in discussions. The whole thing just sucked, except Schemmel's Super Saiyan 4 voice.

That's a legitimate complaint.

But what's happened is that people who saw the FUNimation dub automatically assumed GT was just like that, without giving the original Japanese version a look. So you had a bunch of people that watched a sub-par dub (at best) spreading this bad word of mouth to their friends, and so and so on, until it became the trendy thing to hate on GT. People who hadn't even watched it hated it because it was the popular opinion. Anyone who dared to defend it was maligned and told to "stop trying to make sense of something that makes no sense, ya knob."

The bandwagon kind of lost some steam over the years, likely due to the franchise in general going without a main show and just popping out the odd movie here and there. And then Dragon Ball Super happened, and people who hated it were given a reason to give GT another chance. People started to see that GT wasn't the worst thing in the world, that there could be worse. It wasn't until a couple years ago that I started to witness people actively defending GT consistently, back when Battle of Gods was still new. That's what happens with a lot of franchises and its sequels; just look at Terminator, Alien, Predator, etc.

I don't know where I was going with this, but I hope that made some sense. GT has real problems with it, but it's been better received than it has in the past. I agree that being "non-canon" has no affect on something's quality, though.
Edited by Pyrus, Sep 14 2017, 10:04 PM.
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stebbinsd
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Sep 14 2017, 10:00 PM
I can't really speak much for the east, but the west (us Americans) got a really s***ty version of GT. The FUNimation dub was simply atrocious. Pan was turned into a crying shrew, something she was not in the original; the odd hip-hop soundtrack was ill-advised (although I enjoy Menza's tracks for the most part) and Faulconer was completely absent, which burned a lot of fans who were used to his non-stop tracks; a lot of narrative statements were either changed or outright omitted for no reason, leaving the Japanese fans with an inherent advantage in discussions. The whole thing just sucked, except Schemmel's Super Saiyan 4 voice.

That's a legitimate complaint.

But what's happened is that people who saw the FUNimation dub automatically assumed GT was just like that, without giving the original Japanese version a look. So you had a bunch of people that watched a sub-par dub (at best) spreading this bad word of mouth to their friends, and so and so on, until it became the trendy thing to hate on GT. People who hadn't even watched it hated it because it was the popular opinion. Anyone who dared to defend it was maligned and told to "stop trying to make sense of something that makes no sense, ya knob."

The bandwagon kind of lost some steam over the years, likely due to the franchise in general going without a main show and just popping out the odd movie here and there. And then Dragon Ball Super happened, and people who hated it were given a reason to give GT another chance. People started to see that GT wasn't the worst thing in the world, that there could be worse. It wasn't until a couple years ago that I started to witness people actively defending GT consistently, back when Battle of Gods was still new. That's what happens with a lot of franchises and its sequels; just look at Terminator, Alien, Predator, etc.

I don't know where I was going with this, but I hope that made some sense. GT has real problems with it, but it's been better received than it has in the past. I agree that being "non-canon" has no affect on something's quality, though.
First of all, about the score. What exactly do people have against the GT soundtrack? I'll admit the GT rap sucks a***, but I honestly enjoyed the Funimation music in the show proper.

For example, like with this moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y6zJtB76zA

The score perfectly encapsulates the sense of calm triumph when Goku and Vegeta finally achieve their ultimate form together!

If I'm ever in a fight with a supervillain and I ever reach my final, most powerful form, that's the music I want playing int he background while I look on with a s***eating grin on my face! :D

Second, you mention there were a lot of narrative statements changed or outright omitted. Care to give some examples?
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I don't mind most of Menza's tracks for GT. Some are particularly good, like Remembering the Past, but I can understand why a lot of fans were turned off. They were expecting full-on Bruce Faulconer overload again.

As for the lines:

Spoiler: click to toggle

And there are tons more here. When you essentially change how strong a character is between dubs, that's not a good thing.
Edited by Pyrus, Sep 14 2017, 10:56 PM.
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Because:


and



(The title makes the second one sound way worse than it actually is, but it's still creepy)
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There's good and bad in GT but the good comes mostly in interesting concepts with bad execution.

Firstly, it's just not that fun to watch. For all my complaints about Super, I find myself enjoying a lot of elements and I'm never outright bored. Its action moments are more exciting, it's comedic moments are funnier and I just didn't enjoy GT, the Black Star Dragon Ball arc is particularly boring. It's trying to recapture the charm of original Dragon Ball but it just doesn't. I'm aware of how powerful Goku and Trunks are and how never feel any peril for them at all until they fight Baby. Dragon Ball's adventure makes more sense and feels larger scale even though it isn't. I also watched the two series' at a similar age and I believe here in the UK GT aired first and I still enjoyed Dragon Ball more.

Random powerful characters in a universe which Freeza dominated for a long, long time. Why are people like Ledgic and Rildo suddenly a thing? At least in Super these inexplicably powerful warriors come from outside universes. The androids were strong because of people like Goku, Vegeta, Freeza and Piccolo and Boo had been asleep for millennia. GT comes along and spawns space villains who would have sneezed Freeza into dust.

It's 'Goku Time'. Despite the fact we have all of these younger characters to explore, one being Goku's successor he personally trained, nobody does anything except provide minor distraction until Goku comes along and says "I'll handle this". Vegeta gets to be his equal in the end which is actually pretty great but the others are fodder. When you have the likes of Freeza and Cell join forces and exclaim they're "stronger than ever", we're treated to seeing a base child Goku make a mockery of them, reducing two great DBZ power house villains to comic relief and Goku hype. An arc with a powered up old villain duo putting the heroes in real danger would have been better than suddenly making 17 a whipping boy with an evil agenda who was somehow always meant to be stronger than Cell? He was a carefree teen last time I checked, world domination was never on his mind.

Baby is not the most interesting, three dimensional villain in the show thank you, that title goes to Vegeta and maybe Piccolo. Baby was a great concept but in execution just became a whiny, weaselly parasite who's plan to create an infestation hive mind on Earth wasn't so much sympathetic as it was self-aggrandising. We never see moments of pause or heavy emotional accountability from Baby or really explore the irony of the character, he's just kind of whacky and evil. Perhaps it was the voice for the English dub but it was really hard to sympathise with the guy.

The corruption of the Dragon Balls is my favourite part of the show and the consequences introduced for their overuse. However it all just got really boring again. Why are Goku and Pan taking them on one by one? The birth of the shodow dragons accross the world could have been a great way for all characters to shine in that they'd have to divide forces to stop each dragon ending the world at once. 7 Dragons versus Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Pan and Oob. Instead, it was more false peril with Goku defeating the majority in base. The dragons themselves really not memorable or interesting and just fodder until the final three.

Vegeta's hair change, just...why? Don't change Goku or Vegeta's hair damnit! It's iconic! The moustache was funny though and worth it to see Vegeta devastated by an insult from his teenage daughter and his rage at Chi Chi not noticing he'd shaved it off. Vegeta's development into the leader of the Earth's protectors in the final battle and his care for his home and its people was one of the best things about GT, the Vegeta stuff was good, even if he wasn't in it much. Goten as a teenager was interesting too because he became quite a bit unlike Goku and the fact that even if Goku did become a child for no reason, he wasn't fladerised like Super has treated the character a bit. The ending is also a nice send off.
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I don't really understand why people hate US voiced Pan. I think it's very fitting for a teenage girl (even though she's supposed to be like 9 in the japanese version). I thought Pan was a great addition to the show, a Saiyan female which was rare to see in even DBZ movies.

Aside from that, I do admit that the show has some bad moments, but I enjoyed the Black Star Arc much more than others. Reminded me of the good old DB days when it was just an adventure and not necessarily about fighting bad guys.
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stebbinsd
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Pyrus
Sep 14 2017, 10:56 PM
I don't mind most of Menza's tracks for GT. Some are particularly good, like Remembering the Past, but I can understand why a lot of fans were turned off. They were expecting full-on Bruce Faulconer overload again.

As for the lines:

Spoiler: click to toggle

And there are tons more here. When you essentially change how strong a character is between dubs, that's not a good thing.
Are there any dialogue changes that significantly impact the story? You mention changing how powerful someone is, but even in the Funimation Dub, I could totally tell that Baby is supposed to be far more powerful than anyone they had faced up to that point.

Bear in mind, the English dub also changed "over 8,000" to "over 9,000," yet most fans of the Funimation dub seem to be totally okay with that line. I've heard fans of the Japanese version complain about that, but not fans of the Funimation dub.

When you mentioned that certain dialogues were changed or omitted entirely, I was thinking along the lines of how the Harry Potter movies ommitted important exposition from the books. As CinemaSins once put it during their review of the 5th movie, "These f**kers are still sending harry back to live with abusive relatives?! Five movies in, and the Hogwarts people are just as bad as Voldemort in my book!" In fact, the book gave us a perfectly legitimate explanation as to why Harry had to return to the Dursleys for the summer, so it made sense.

When you mentioned entire exposition bits being changed or outright omitted, I was thinking something like that.

Do you have anything THAT significant that was changed across the dub?
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Super 17 saga was random and most of the stuff in the beginning of GT up until rildo was lame and boring. A lot of the fights throughout the series are kinda slow too. They aren't like those fast paced classic dbz fights. Vegeta should've been more help against super 17. Other than those things I don't have any other major complaints.

I actually liked the music. I loved the baby saga and the shadow dragon saga. Ssj4 and ssj4 gogeta were awesome. I don't have a problem with kid goku. He's awesome especially when he was ssj3 with a tail. That looked amazing

The color palette was different and cool

There aren't even that many plot holes despite what people say. You have to understand it takes place in another continuity. It doesn't matter if it contradicts something in the original series

And I hate to make this a Super vs GT thing but unlike in Toei's Super, goku, even in base form, is rightfully a beast. It's been 15 years since buu and he trained for 5 with uub. He's well above kid buu level power so he should be really strong. And that's exactly what the series shows. In super goku absorbs super saiyan God and then 20 episodes later everyone and their f***ing mom has caught up with him for some reason
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Sep 15 2017, 04:25 PM.
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