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| Whis and Vegeta | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 10 2017, 12:11 AM (1,221 Views) | |
| superperfectnerd | Aug 10 2017, 12:11 AM Post #1 |
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I'm watching through the Super English dub and Whis tells Vegeta if he can learn to control his energy, he predicts Vegeta will surpass Goku. Now I've always held the belief in terms of raw potential Goku < Vegeta but Vegeta's flawed persona holds him back as a fighter more than Goku's does, Goku's flaws, other than dropping his guard, actually make him better at utilising his potential as a fighter but bad at pretty much everything else. Beerus seems to have a special fondness for Goku, he is after all the first 'decent' fight he had in a long time, whereas Whis seems to have a fondness for Vegeta. Edited by superperfectnerd, Aug 10 2017, 12:12 AM.
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| Thiln | Aug 10 2017, 05:22 PM Post #2 |
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Potential in the context of strength I assume is what you're referring to. I'm not sure if I would agree. Goku has consistently outperformed Vegeta the majority of times since they first began mutual training sessions simultaneously. For what it's worth, Goku's child appears to have far more impressive potential than Vegeta's. |
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| superperfectnerd | Aug 10 2017, 05:43 PM Post #3 |
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Goku hasn't outperformed in the anime other than having Kaioken, not in raw power anyway. And it's irrelevant anyway, Whis said that Vegeta being "wound too tight and not knowing when to rest like Goku" means he is physically not performing at his potential level whereas Goku's flaw of dropping his guard doesn't make him physically weaker, just reckless in battle. According to Daizenshuu 4, tailess saiyans (Goten and Trunks) > Gohan Plus, it takes two to make a baby, who says Goten and Gohan aren't strong hybrids because Chi Chi > Bulma? |
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| superperfectnerd | Aug 10 2017, 05:44 PM Post #4 |
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Edit Goku hasn't outperformed in the anime other than having Kaioken, not in raw power anyway. And it's irrelevant anyway, Whis said that Vegeta being "wound too tight and not knowing when to rest like Goku" means he is physically not performing at his potential level whereas Goku's flaw of dropping his guard doesn't make him physically weaker, just reckless in battle. So Vegeta (unused potential) =< Goku (utilised potential) < Vegeta (utilised potential) According to Daizenshuu 4, tailess saiyans (Goten and Trunks) > Gohan Plus, it takes two to make a baby, who says Goten and Gohan aren't strong hybrids because Chi Chi > Bulma? Accidental double post Edited by superperfectnerd, Aug 10 2017, 05:45 PM.
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| Thiln | Aug 10 2017, 06:03 PM Post #5 |
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Vegeta himself has reaffirmed Goku to be the superior "genius" on at least one occasion during the Buu arc. Efficiency and amount both are important during training. Like you said, Whis had some instructional words of wisdom to impart with Goku as well, presumably to make him into a greater fighter. Ease of tension, I would imagine, alludes to Goku's carefree and relaxed demeanour. How much more beneficial do you suppose Goku's training would be if he trained as arduously as Vegeta does while retaining his pension for recuperating at intervals? Goku would be incorporating both efficiency and amount into his training style. Why would tailless Saiyans have superior potential? I don't understand the correlation with that statement. Moreover, if you want to find a commonality amongst the other hybrids with Gohan then look no further than the RoSaT. Future Trunks used both of his days while Gohan trained for less than one. Nothing was preventing him from taking to heart the methodology used by Goku and Gohan to normalise the usage of his Super Saiyan form. Why didn't we see him come out of the room with strength that's at least comparable to Gohan's, then? On a somewhat related note, if Trunks possessed the same aptitude as Gohan then I suspect his latent power would have infrequently surfaced during moments of intense emotional trauma like when #18 had broken his father's arm. We seen nothing akin to what Gohan displayed against Raditz, however. And as for the comparison between Bulma and Chichi, there wasn't any noted shift in the power arrangement between Goten and Trunks after having used the RoSaT. If anything, the same situation as before may have been retained with Trunks holding a slight edge over his friend. |
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| superperfectnerd | Aug 10 2017, 08:29 PM Post #6 |
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I've had these arguments many times, Vegeta doesn't understand his own failings, hence his inferiority to Goku. Goku to Vegeta in Super "if anyone can do it it's you", referring to surpassing Beerus first after seeing Vegeta's hidden power against Beerus. Is this not the same thing? Goku is a greater 'genius' as in Goku knows best how to utilise his power. Goku has learnt from many masters and Vegeta has done everything alone. Vegeta works harder but not smarter. Gravity training topped out, we've never been shown more than 300G is possible to emulate and Vegeta mastered that in base years ago. Most recently we've been shown Vegeta training at 150Gs whilst Goku is with King Kai squatting GIANT weights and pulling them around King Kai's planet, we don't know how much they weigh but King Kai doesn't seem to have limits on weight he can summon. I'd say Goku's training here is more beneficial to an old method Vegeta has already mastered. Fpssj + Goku training and sparring for less than a year and resting properly >>> two years of Vegeta leaving you to it because he's too proud to want help Goku even tells Vegeta he's just torturing himself and that isn't the same as training. Goku never states he's 'better' than Vegeta by any sort of natural advantage because Goku knows why Vegeta falls behind. He's a fighting genius. Gohan was taught by Chi Chi that fighting is bad, his hidden power is just subconscious repression. Any of his childhood explosions in power bar his transformation to ssj2 don't even touch Goten and Trunks' casual power. Piccolo was able to draw out more of Gohan's 'ultimate' power in two hours, he spoke of Gohan drawing out his true strength. He then sparred Goku, Gohan didn't get that strong training conventionally for two hours, he stopped repressing his power subconsciously. Goten and Trunks are encouraged to spar and fight as Chi Chi is clearly mentally unstable after losing her husband and wants Goten to be a Goku clone. Edited by superperfectnerd, Aug 10 2017, 08:35 PM.
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| Thiln | Aug 10 2017, 09:53 PM Post #7 |
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I thought Vegeta was supposed to be a prodigal aristocrat who was given access to the highest quality training and resources that the Saiyan race and Planet Trade Organisation had to offer. The man was only a child when he surpassed his seasoned warrior chief of a father. He prides himself on having so much experience and genius aptitude when brandishing his muscles for everyone else to see. Next to Vegeta's background, Goku's is remarkably mundane with little else but some fundamental basics offered by two hermits, some glorified cat & mouse aerobics, and finally his own gallivanting expedition across Earth visiting new places to show for. The first real ounce of advanced tutelage and training didn't arrive until he was taken under wing by Kami. Vegeta would have already been an adult at that time with sixteen years of servitude as a member of the PTO under his belt. Despite all of these advantages, he can't seem to break through the glass ceiling until he comes across Goku and co followed by a chaotic array of events that happen to coincide with him being given some fairly rudimentary training amenities when you consider everything that he would logically have experienced and had access to as a member of the most powerful and technologically advanced faction in Universe 7 at the time. Personally, I can't say anything more about Vegeta's stunt when pitted against Beerus other than it being a caricatural imitation of a trait in Gohan which Toriyama no longer had any use for from him as he had abandoned the young half-Saiyan's prior development. It was an inexplicable haphazard means for trying to making Vegeta stand out from the lowly ningen incapable of mounting any kind of tangible resistance against Beerus up until that point. We saw nothing of it before that incident and it hasn't been referenced since. I describe it as a freak accident that, if written during the timeline of the original manga, would have likely been given to Gohan, who has a clearly established proclivity for such violent outbursts, not Vegeta. Could I please get some kind of official source for Trunks and Vegeta not having trained together during their first session? I see this argument offered continuously but then I glance back over a comment made during the early beginnings of the Namek arc about Cui wanting to meet Vegeta in the training room, implying that they were no strangers to working out together. Trunks must have felt too disinclined from emulating his father if he acquired the same power. What's also being neglected, it seems, is the fact Goku had to spend the first portion of their ten and a half months building Gohan up so that he could access Super Saiyan and then control it. At one point, Gohan even commented on his father sitting in place pondering to himself for some time after he had begun to train using SSJ. Hybrid Saiyans in general appear to have a disinclination when it comes to earnest long-term commitment, Future Trunks being a noted exception. If this subconscious repression were truly the product of Chichi's parenting then why did she continue to emphasise academics for Gohan after Goku's death? I'm surprised this "mental instability" wouldn't be consequential for Gohan as well. By the way, in early childhood, Kid Trunks had the luxury of living with a well-to-do family that can offer him the best training furnishings money can buy. His father also happened to be available to train him rigorously, which he then passed on to Goten through their sparring sessions. Gohan had no such luxuries. His first experience with training came when he worked with a Piccolo who only had a power level in the hundreds. We neither see or hear anything notable about his training until the three preparation for the cyborgs. Working with a much stronger Vegeta using a gravitational chamber would still pose far better benefits, though. Compared to Gohan, Goten and Trunks were advantaged to have such resources available on hand for them to benefit from, either directly or indirectly. |
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| superperfectnerd | Aug 10 2017, 10:50 PM Post #8 |
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If the saiyans had access to training like that, then they wouldn't be weak. Saiyans got stronger through conquering and zenkais but zenkais were rare because they were elite fighters, running into trouble was rare and if they did, they had their oozaru forms to fall back on or if they were beaten, they'd just die. No senzu beans or healing magic to instantly save them. Vegeta learnt form and technique but obviously he didn't train like he does now...or he'd have been stronger that 18 000. Goku showed him what was possible, no low class saiyan had hit 8000 before, so Vegeta began to emulate Goku but falls short on the knowledge of balance Goku gained from his experiences on Earth, like ki sensing and energy suppression, techniques Vegeta hadn't even considered before Earth. Whether you like it or not, Vegeta's power against Beerus happened and you say it's out of the ordinary but when was the last time Vegeta saw somebody he care about hurt in front of him? Future Trunks? Vegeta is a different man than he was back then and he arguably hit Cell harder than he should have been able to...just wasn't enough to close the gap. The ssjg was only attainable by gathering righteous saiyans, so righteousness brought them more power through this ritual, perhaps then righteousness brings about more power in general for a saiyan and until post Boo saga, Vegeta was not righteous. Vegeta ignored, berated and scoffed at Trunks, he didn't train him like Goku trained Gohan. Also, even if fpssj ends up powering up the saiyan more than assj through stamina training, Vegeta would not want to admit he was wrong and copy Goku so he surpassed 50% Goku (what he thought was his max) as an assj instead of training to be a fpssj. I'm not trying to say Goten and Trunks are effortlessly stronger than Gohan, they've had great training, what I'm saying is just because Gohan's power is hidden, doesn't mean it's greater than Goten and Trunks' which are on the surface. Hidden power doesn't mean a greater ceiling. Plus, Trunks has not had his potential drawn out and yet he learned the mafuba in 5 minutes (took Goku 12 hours), competed with gods without god ki training, overpowered Merged Zamasu, learnt the spirit bom through feeling (he's never seen it) and absorbed the power of the spirit bomb into his own body, something Goku has never done in canon...so Gohan > Trunks is up in the air these days. The idea that Goku is special misses the point of Goku, Goku is an ordinary saiyan who achieves extraordinary heights because of WHO he is, not WHAT he is. His race considered him worthless and threw him out and he's risen beyond them thanks to that. Nature < nurture Vegeta < Goku Kakarotto < Vegeta If Vegeta had been sent to Earth then he would be Goku and he would be the strongest, that's the whole point of what Goku is. Edited by superperfectnerd, Aug 10 2017, 10:53 PM.
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| Notaka | Aug 10 2017, 10:55 PM Post #9 |
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Always Wright
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I always thought that Vegeta had more potential than Goku. The problem why Vegeta is always weaker than Goku is because his training is simply inferior compared to Goku's. In the Cell saga, he didn't even bother training with Trunks the first time he entered the RoSaT. The second time he literally went alone. Vegeta always pushes his body to the limit, never resting for a bit, which is definitely bad for his health and limits his growth. Goku doesn't push his body like Vegeta does, but he takes breaks during his training, which renders it more efficient than Vegeta's. and now that I think of it, Goku always had some sort of special training, while Vegeta always relied on the Gravity room. |
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| Thiln | Aug 11 2017, 12:39 AM Post #10 |
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Some of the various conditions from the RoSaT are replicable on Earth. The chronological timeline of Dragon Ball coupled with Herms' own posits list Goku's sojourn into Jingle Village as having transpired on May 8th. How many areas of Earth do you suppose have inclement weather patterns that allow for snow year-round during Spring and probably Summer? In real life, the coldest place on Earth is Vostok Station in Antarctica. For eight months out of the year the average temperature easily exceeds -40 degrees (the annual average being -50), which is the lowest extent for the room's temperature decrease. I would be curious to know if DB's Earth shared in the kind of climactic extremities that real life has. On the opposite end, Aziziya boasts the record for hottest climate in the world. Three months throughout the year see temperature averages relatively close to the RoSaT's maximum of 48 degrees with May and September still being very hot. Again, if we were to assume such conditions were reflected in certain regions of Dragon Ball then about the only advantage the RoSaT can boast for having is its gravity. The Saiyans would have likely come across at least several other planets with gravitational amounts as intense as their own like Planet Zoon, Pui-Pui's home world. Earth also happens to be one of the most ideal planets for habitation. What kind of extremities do you suppose Vegeta and his ilk would have experienced throughout their conquerings of untold worlds? Vegeta had every advantage in the world afforded to him unlike Goku - princely luxuries, a long established career of pirating that lasted for almost two decades, extreme otherworldly atmospheric conditions through which to build himself up in, a constant persistent rival in Cui, ect. By the way, Goku didn't rely on Senzu Beans or restoration arts to hasten his training in the manga except for when he was on his way to Namek. If anything, Vegeta's training would be expedited thanks to the state of the art healing chambers afforded by the PTO. Nobody referenced an unnatural power spike in Vegeta when he launched into a rageful offensive against Cell. What we saw against Beerus was baseless and devoid of any coherent merit. But then it's about as extreme as the humans performing better against a stronger Goku than SSJ3 Gotenks did against Copy-Vegeta. Since you cite this purported righteousness as a causal factor for Vegeta's spiked strength, I would be curious to know if its effects would apply to Goku as well. Before mention it, Goku is not righteous, at least not in the expected sense. He's naively "pure", but fails to grasp the seriousness of situations at times, let alone have the sufferings of others compel him into receiving a heightened boost of power. The closest instance of this was when he discovered what Black had done to his family in the alternate timeline. We didn't receive an in-depth purview of their interactions. The most that occurred was Trunks describing his father's interpretation of him being there in the rocky terrain region as a "mistake", or interpreting him more specifically like a "mistake". I suspect this viewpoint may have been inspired by Vegeta's worldview surrounding the Super Saiyan and its mystique crashing down all around him. He had just been overwhelmed by two local cyborgs on a planet that was deemed primitive by universal standards. Following this, he's witness to Piccolo surpassing his power through means of his own. Being in emotional upheaval after such events would be understandable. However, we see him regain his old confidence and determination after glancing upon the depths and intensity of the RoSaT with his own eyes. You would have to show me where Vegeta "berated and scoffed" at Trunks because I don't recall any such verbal incident occurring during this point in the manga. If anything, the opposite may have been implied as Vegeta hushed Trunks up when he mentioned having surpassed the Super Saiyan level so quickly, an accomplishment which Trunks evidently shared in using the exact same methods. He even took it upon himself to take pride in his son for having strength so comparable to his own. Goku himself affirmed Gohan's potential being so great that his rage could enable him to defeat "anyone in the world" (by Buu arc standards). He didn't word his sentencing as to imply that there were two others waiting in the event of Gohan's demise with the potential to match his. Vegeta didn't bother to correct him either From a narrative standpoint, Gohan has always been exceptionally gifted with strong potential for growth. If you want another example of this comparative depth of potential then look at Gohan after having trained with the Z-Sword for only a day compared with Goten and Trunks using the RoSaT for two weeks in far harsher conditions and with each other to use as sparring partners. It's not like their individual strength was enough to warrant a remark from Piccolo along the lines of "they surpassed Goku and Vegeta". Gohan's power was at least credible enough to make Goku ponder if he was powerful enough to defeat Fat Buu. I feel like a more apt comparison would be the Z-Sword since you're likening Future Trunks to Goku, who is not being compared to at the moment. The Super manga describes Future Trunks' training with the Z-Sword as having been "rigorous" in preparation for Babidi's arrival. Gohan was training under far more intensive conditions yet he successfully mastered using the blade in one day's time. I sincerely doubt Kaioshin would have hinged the safety of the universe on a day's worth of sword training. He likely had Trunks working with the blade for weeks, if not months in advance before proposing they test it out against Katchin. The other events you describe hardly feel like equatable sample pieces in that Gohan never experienced them firsthand himself. But I could point to him losing his rust and ascending all of the way up to comparable status with SSJB Goku in two days time. |
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| superperfectnerd | Aug 11 2017, 01:47 AM Post #11 |
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I'm aware Vegeta's pillaging of planets and existing under greater gravity than Earth afforded him advantages Goku did not have but that's where the advantages end. There's a certain point of diminished returns once getting used to those things. Goku's training on Earth was child's play compared to the harsh environments Vegeta faced but Vegeta didn't struggle with those environments because he grew up in them, he still had a naturally higher battle power at birth. That's not the point though, Goku's advantages don't come from earthly training but from the experiences he had and the person being on Earth formed him into. Vegeta ants to be the best, Goku wants to be the best he can be for no reason other than to test himself and go further, it's that attitude and a core, balanced approach to martial arts that gives Goku the edge over Vegeta, not who developed faster under what conditions as a child. And if Freeza's high potential is indicated by high natural power then surely the same can be said of Vegeta at birth? Vegeta is a different man to who he was in any other part of the series at the start of BOG and has never seen a loved one hurt before, it's unprecedented yes but the circumstances haven't been there before. They were in the same place training, they'd be aware of each other's power somewhat but remember, Trunks thought Vegeta didn't know about his 'ultra' ssj form and also thought he could not do it himself. I thought they trained together? Goku and Vegeta are not infallible, they haven't performed biological tests on their children to see who has the most potential. How would they know that Gohan being more powerful when angry means he has more potential than the other two boys? Again, Daizenshu 4 states that the tailess hybrids have even more potential than the tailed hybrids. Plus Gohan trained as an adult with the Z sword, that must make a difference compared to a 7 and 8 year old, plus it would seem Z sword > ROSAT. We don't know how long Trunks trained with the sword but he was weaker than Gohan to begin with and had grown even weaker rebuilding his world, plus he hadn't unlocked ssj2 and we don't know how strong future Dabra is either. Trunks never had his potential 'brought past its limits'. 'Ultimate' Gohan is Gohan plus and we also don't yet know if he's actually comparable to ssjb Goku at all. Even so, Merged Zamasu >>> ssjb Goku but we also don't know if he was weakened or holding back or whatever. Again, the whole point of Goku is that he wasn't born extraordinary, he became it. If Goku was just born with more potential then it flies in the face of the whole 'don't be limited by the circumstances of your birth' shtick that Goku represents as opposed to Vegeta who is limited by his own mind. Goku has the perfect mindset to maximise his saiyan potential, Vegeta does not. Whis says Vegeta is always one step behind and then asks if Vegeta knows why, he doesn't say "because Goku was born with more biological potential than you". He says, "becuase you have a chip on your shoulder and you're wound too tight, learn to rest like Goku does". Edited by superperfectnerd, Aug 11 2017, 01:54 AM.
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| Namek_Nimrod | Aug 11 2017, 10:46 AM Post #12 |
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I thought the whole point was Vegeta got more powerful through training and hard work....where Goku obviously trains as well, but he has more passion due to having family and friends. This gives him a higher will when trying to defend the planet, whereas Vegeta just wants to be the strongest for ego reasons. Obviously in Super that has all gone...Vegeta seems to care more about his family and the fate of the universe where Goku just wants to fight for ego reasons. Edited by Namek_Nimrod, Aug 11 2017, 02:37 PM.
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| Thiln | Aug 11 2017, 01:16 PM Post #13 |
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So the causal factor for Goku's advantage stems from a blithe recreational desire to see himself improve purely for the satisfaction of having accomplished it - nevermind how that translates into a quantifiable stimulator for advanced growth besides his commitment to training which others around him already share. We've seen Vegeta recuperate and do other things apart from training such as when he was dressed in casual attire enjoying what appeared to be a barbecue with Bulma and others at Capsule Corp. Funny enough, Goku was off in the deep reaches of Space training himself with the Yardratians while his family languished without him for over a year. If this is supposed to be some loose recognition of zen being the root for Goku's success then I would cite what Whis described as his simplistic mind compelling him to carry himself with too relaxed of a demeanour at times. By the way, Vegeta has used the RoSaT five times now to strengthen himself. One of the sojourns granted him enough power to overwhelm Black. Keep in mind that the climatic extremities and gravity would have remained static, yet despite having already experienced its rigours multiple times now, Vegeta still found enough benefit to be had from the room. Goku was the same as he used it in preparation for the tournament against Universe 6 back during he Champa arc. Some abstract psychological conditioning will only take you so far before your physical amenities need to reflect the degree of power you want to attain. Vegeta still had access to far more than what Goku received. I can't imagine what he might have desired as a small child but I doubt he was an obsessive-compulsive workaholic as he would have had other aspects to royalty to occupy his time. We don't know what their exact power levels were at birth. I doubt Vegeta was conceived with a power level exceeding 10,000 or whatever his father's was prior to dying. Much of his early life was probably spent honing himself enough to where he surpassed the king. As to your other point, Vegeta had already chosen to reform himself and take on a more family appreciative view of life sometime close to the end of the Buu arc. Where was this upsurge of power when Kid Buu murdered his son or when Goku chose to rescue the loudmouthed charlatan and Dende over the people whom they loved? He still retained all of the typical Saiyan pomposity, even going so far as to destroy the Potara earring offered to him and turning the battle that would decide the fate of the universe into a sport with Goku. What we saw in the BoG arc was a freakish anomaly that did nothing else but insult Gohan for prescribing his inherent rage-induced potential to someone who never exhibited any signs of using it before a single incident involving Beerus. They trained in a void-like environment that's stated to have the same expanse as Earth. We don't know the exact conditions and circumstances of Trunks acquiring grade 3 in the RoSaT, only that he believed Vegeta was too proud to accept assistance from someone who believed they had surpassed him. Again, I cite Vegeta's seeming familiarity with being in a training facility with Cui as evidence of him not being unaccustomed in working with others to improve himself. I don't see why the same couldn't apply to Future Trunks, the same Trunks whom Vegeta already took habit of priding himself in as he was gloating to Cell. It demonstrates the volatile expanse of untapped power Gohan has hidden beneath the surface. The amplifiers in strength we saw from him dwarfed even the prodigies of the era back when he was a child. Goten and Trunks never displayed such power increases. You might attribute this to them having harnessed their power, but even after having trained and honed his abilities to the extent where he surpassed his father naturally, Gohan was still able to tap into some inherent reservoir of power through emotional upheaval and become even more powerful. Gohan used the Z Sword when he was 18 years old. It's hardly the mark of someone who is at their biological pinnacle. Gohan was already at the cusp of surpassing the adult human fighters after a few months of training with Piccolo. Age alone isn't enough rationality to explain why Goten and Trunks weren't able to even come close to equaling Gohan. They trained in a room with all sorts of atmospheric extremities, including their respective body masses being multiplied by ten. It far exceeds wielding a heavy blade with weight probably not much greater than the weights used by Goku in his training for the 25th tournament. Does Kaioshin strike you as the type of person who would wager the fate of the universe on a day's worth of weapons training? Future Trunks would have been given all the time in the world to perfect his usage of the Z Sword before being pitted against Dabura and Babidi. Moreover, Trunks was doing the exact opposite of what you described - in his own words and I paraphrase, "he was training everyday as if his life depended on it". It makes sense as Future Trunks is the type of man who has become determined to protect his future no matter the cost. Several years had elapsed before he came into contact with Kaioshin. We don't know the exact amount of improvement he made, but I suspect it would have, at the very least, made him comparable to Gohan in his original SSJ state during the Cell Games since that was the previous benchmark he had witnessed without having undergone another transformation into SSJ2. He would have needed comparable strength to Buu arc SSJ Gohan to extract the Z Sword from its resting place anyway. Also, nothing was suggested to imply that Dabura's strength was any more or less than what was seen in the original manga. The Mystic Gohan you're describing has already transcended his original exceeded power back in the Buu arc by multifold. It's consistent with the thematical message of overcoming your own limits - this trend has been ongoing since Goku strengthened himself beyond his limits back during the King Piccolo arc when he survived the Choshinsui. The discussion here is related to Gohan and Future Trunks' respective mastery of the Z-Sword, something which Gohan appeared more capable at since he mastered the blade in a day's time. Goku was gifted with an hereditary knack for exceeding people's expectations and raising himself to ever higher plateaus. None of the non-Saiyans can boast such a privilege. They lack that fundamental Saiyan gene for transforming and receiving zenkais. I would sooner refer to Chaozu as a rags to riches success story than Goku. Vegeta happens to share in that hereditary capability, only he can't quite match Goku because he's not improving for improvement's sake? I still don't see how that correlates to Goku's physiology enabling him to make stronger increases in power. Is the secret to to success related to the person easing their temperament into something that's more carefree and amiable? If so, then Whis should be trying to impart his wisdom to the likes of Toppo. The man is just as wound up and anxious as Vegeta, perhaps worse since he appears to suffer from bulging veins throughout the cranial region of his body, indicating some unhealthy or unnatural disruption in the valves that allow blood to pass through to other parts of the body. Somehow he's still able to match Goku in spite of this personality of his creating a medical condition, it looks like. Edited by Thiln, Aug 11 2017, 01:49 PM.
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| superperfectnerd | Aug 14 2017, 12:07 PM Post #14 |
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It's as simple as nature versus nurture, that's it. Goku is a greater martial artist and fighting genius than Vegeta because of who he is, not what he is. Goku has develoed from childhood under circumstances that no other saiyan ever has, that's why he's unlike any other saiyan. The fact Vegeta manages to stay only one step behind despite his arrogance and pride are a testament to Vegeta's potential. More than anything his power in BOG was symbolic, Vegeta threw away his pride, a trait he clung to for so long (for a long time it was all he had) to protect the Earth. In the next scene he is rewarded with a power boost to exceed Goku, it was symbolic of Vegeta's development. Even Beerus and Goku commended Vegeta for throwing his pride away. Goku does not see himself as inherently better than Vegeta because he understands why he is ahead, he agreed with Whis about Vegeta not knowing when to rest and Goku stated "if anyone can surpass Beerus alone, it's you Vegeta". Goku also understood why he was stronger after the ROSAT when he tlls Vegeta that just torturing himself in there is not the same as training and won't do him much good. Vegeta will never achieve his peak, he's not got Goku's simple clarity and understanding. Goku is the ultimate saiyan ironically, for having been raised away from them. I also think Gohan should have more potential but I'm just quoting the Daizenshuu and we've nevr seen Goten and Trunks really motivated to go at it except for the 2 weeks they trained in the ROSAT. Their advantage coming from Chi Chi also makes sense, as it's the human addition to saiyans which makes hybrids > full bloods and Chi Chi's family are warriors whereas Bulma's are scientists. Chi Chi casually cut off a dinosaur's head when she was first introduced. |
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