Quote:

 

Uh no. DBZ fighters survive being sent from one island to another by a physical hit, no less. Where did Toriko ever do that ?

Quote:

 

Goku in the 23rd Budokai Arc survived an explosion that could have destroyed an island which is far above what Toriko did in that arc. Now you're pitting him against a Goku who is literally millions of time stronger.

Quote:

 

No there aren't because the More ki you have, the physically stronger you are. It doesn't matter if your opponent is a mass of muscle, if you have more ki than him you are physically stronger. That's how DBZ works.

Quote:

 

If you can lift a mountain, that's good, but what the hell is it gonna do against someone who can casually destroy the earth?

Quote:

 

Goku would blitz Toriko, and would blast him to smithereens.

Quote:

 

Like said, if this Jewel can get Toriko around Frieza's final form at least, he will be at least in range to an extent but right now, this guy is fodder.

Quote:

 

So...you haven't read anything about Toriko I take it...WAY crazier stuff than that happens, that's nothing lol.

Quote:

 

No, he survived a weak explosion with a wide radius, nothing more.

All that explosion did was damage the surface of the island, it didn't even hurt people like 5 meters away in a hole. What kind of deadly explosion fails to do that?
It didn't even make a crater.

Quote:

 

To an extent, yes but to Toriko's level? No.

Base Buu Arc Goku struggles with 40 tons and then becoming 50x stronger makes him able to lift that easier, 10 tons on each limb that is.
Even if you want to scale strength up linearly which is never demonstrated to happen he's not got anything on most versions of Toriko.

Quote:

 

And this is where the massive disconnect in logic happens.

They destroy planets with energy attacks. They can't do that much damage with physical and yet they hurt each other, even characters with less Ki can punch hard enough to hurt their opponent. Semi-Perfect Cell made Vegeta bleed even.

Explain why someone like Toriko who's physical strength far outclasses anyone in Dragon Ball can't hurt them.

Quote:

 

Considering you've read nothing about Toriko how can you make such a claim and you don't seem to have read anything about Dragon Ball either since Goku never fights like that. Virtually nobody in Dragon Ball does which is why they realistically lose a lot of Other Versus fights with the whole pride spiel and the monologuing crap.

Goku would try to tank an attack and it would destroy him and unlike Toriko he doesn't have regeneration

Quote:

 

Ki doesn't absolutely defend you from physical hits, if that were true then strong characters should be immovable objects and yet they get knocked around, Nappa anyone? Sure he was caught off guard but attacks like that generally work if the difference in strength isn't as colossal as Cell vs Krillin, obviously in that case the boost Ki gives is relevant as Cell could beat Krillin in an arm wrestle using an eyelid.

Notaka

Jul 29 2017, 09:02 PM

Quote:

 

Alright, is it in the same arc ? Because only Regal Mammoth arc Toriko is allowed.

Quote:

 

If it wasn't Island level, it has to be City level; weaker characters such as King Piccolo were able to destroy Cities casually.
And I'm fairly certain it has to be island level, the same Piccolo who got a little bit stronger after 5 years of training was able to destroy the moon, far higher then Toriko ever did.

Quote:

 

plenty of planet busting attacks either leave small craters or not.

Quote:

 

What's to say they couldn't ? They could perfectly raise their stats to the point where they could destroy planets with their fists. They don't because:
Energy attacks are far more viable and effective.
and they raise their physical attributes to bypass their opponents defense. That's the fundamental of DBZ fights.

Quote:

 

I'll admit, Toriko is strong physically, but it doesn't matter against Goku, if Goku's ki is higher than Toriko's, then he will no sell all of his punches because he can simply raise his physical attributes to be above of Toriko's.

Quote:

 

They hurt each other because one's ki is higher than the opponent, therefore letting them bypass their durability. It's a fundamentals of DBZ fights.

It's literally like this:
You're ki is higher than your opponents: You can hurt them by using your bare fists, and if you're massively stronger, no sell every attack be it physical or energetic.

Quote:

 

And to further bring your argument to the mud; Take a look at Cell vs Gohan SSJ2. At first glance, who do you think looks stronger Physically ?
the 7 Foot tall muscular beast, or the quite toned 11 year old boy ?
Yet cell couldn't even hurt Gohan, whereas Gohan incapacitated Cell with only two hits. And in DBZ, it's a sign that if A tanks physical hits from B, then 90% of the time is that A has a larger Ki than B.

Quote:

 

You're believing in that stupid Split Durability crap theory; It never was implied or hinted through out the show

Notaka

Jul 29 2017, 09:02 PM

Quote:

 

So...you haven't read anything about Toriko I take it...WAY crazier stuff than that happens, that's nothing lol.

Alright, is it in the same arc ? Because only Regal Mammoth arc Toriko is allowed.

Quote:

 

No, he survived a weak explosion with a wide radius, nothing more.

All that explosion did was damage the surface of the island, it didn't even hurt people like 5 meters away in a hole. What kind of deadly explosion fails to do that?
It didn't even make a crater.

If it wasn't Island level, it has to be City level; weaker characters such as King Piccolo were able to destroy Cities casually.
And I'm fairly certain it has to be island level, the same Piccolo who got a little bit stronger after 5 years of training was able to destroy the moon, far higher then Toriko ever did.
and leaving a crater or not is irrelevant. plenty of planet busting attacks either leave small craters or not. The aftermath of the kamehameha battle between Cell and Gohan says hi. Vegeta's final atonement says hi too.
so it's either leaving a crater makes no difference whatsoever, or that DBZ characters aren't planet busters which is illogical and ridiculous.

Quote:

 

To an extent, yes but to Toriko's level? No.

Base Buu Arc Goku struggles with 40 tons and then becoming 50x stronger makes him able to lift that easier, 10 tons on each limb that is.
Even if you want to scale strength up linearly which is never demonstrated to happen he's not got anything on most versions of Toriko.

What's to say they couldn't ? They could perfectly raise their stats to the point where they could destroy planets with their fists. They don't because:
Energy attacks are far more viable and effective.
and they raise their physical attributes to bypass their opponents defense. That's the fundamental of DBZ fights.

I'll admit, Toriko is strong physically, but it doesn't matter against Goku, if Goku's ki is higher than Toriko's, then he will no sell all of his punches because he can simply raise his physical attributes to be above of Toriko's. And frankly, I see toriko around the high hundreds and that's being generous. He wouldn't be even able to scratch Raditz.

Also, Goku struggled with 40 tons on 10x of earth's gravity. Can Toriko even walk in 10x gravity ?

Quote:

 

And this is where the massive disconnect in logic happens.

They destroy planets with energy attacks. They can't do that much damage with physical and yet they hurt each other, even characters with less Ki can punch hard enough to hurt their opponent. Semi-Perfect Cell made Vegeta bleed even.

Explain why someone like Toriko who's physical strength far outclasses anyone in Dragon Ball can't hurt them.

They hurt each other because one's ki is higher than the opponent, therefore letting them bypass their durability. It's a fundamentals of DBZ fights.

It's literally like this:
You're ki is higher than your opponents: You can hurt them by using your bare fists, and if you're massively stronger, no sell every attack be it physical or energetic.

If you want to know if Toriko can hurt them or not, Then you have to guess where his powerlevel is.
And powerlevel scales linearly with attack potency, the more stuff you can destroy, the higher your ki is going to be. If Toriko's is a city level buster, then he's around King Piccolo's strength, which is literally a millions of time weaker than this Goku.

If his ki is weaker than Goku's, then there's no way he can bypass his durability.

Also, Semi Perfect Cell made Vegeta bleed because Vegeta was toying with him and let him have a free hit.

Chapter: 379 (DBZ 185), P12.6
Vegeta: “Looks like you really did put all your power into that, and it was merely that level…You’ve disappointed me…! This is so anticlimactic…I came to see just how incredible you were…”

Quote:

 

Considering you've read nothing about Toriko how can you make such a claim and you don't seem to have read anything about Dragon Ball either since Goku never fights like that. Virtually nobody in Dragon Ball does which is why they realistically lose a lot of Other Versus fights with the whole pride spiel and the monologuing crap.

Goku would try to tank an attack and it would destroy him and unlike Toriko he doesn't have regeneration

I don't read toriko that's true. But not reading Dragon ball ?
It seems that you are the one that didn't read; You fail to realize that Physical strength is correlated with KI. Here let me give you proof:


According to Chozenshu 1
-What are the requirements for becoming strong?

-There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”. Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important.

It states that there are physical limit. OK.

Except that these limits can be overcome with KI, meaning that the physical strength can be as high as your damage output.

Further proved by the Dragon ball super exciting guide:

What is the key to winning in battle?

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your check over it. Ki as a concept of course includes spiritual powers such as energy [Genki] courage [Yūki], and right-mindedness [Shoki] 11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki.

Goku even states that when your ki gets higher, so do your physical attributes:
Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”


So Goku would monologue, tanking Toriko's hits and leaving him wondering the hell out why his attacks aren't working.
So unless Toriko has a higher ki pool than Goku(and for that he'd have to be a planet buster), Goku would feel nothing from his attacks, then proceed to knock him out in one hit.

Quote:

 

Ki doesn't absolutely defend you from physical hits, if that were true then strong characters should be immovable objects and yet they get knocked around, Nappa anyone? Sure he was caught off guard but attacks like that generally work if the difference in strength isn't as colossal as Cell vs Krillin, obviously in that case the boost Ki gives is relevant as Cell could beat Krillin in an arm wrestle using an eyelid.

They get knocked around because the fighter fighting them has a higher Ki pool than them. Nappa didn't even bulge against the Z fighters because his ki was larger. Now comes Goku, who looks physically weaker than Nappa, toss him around in their fight because Goku's ki pool is deeper than Nappa's.
And to further bring your argument to the mud; Take a look at Cell vs Gohan SSJ2. At first glance, who do you think looks stronger Physically ?
the 7 Foot tall muscular beast, or the quite toned 11 year old boy ?
Yet cell couldn't even hurt Gohan, whereas Gohan incapacitated Cell with only two hits. And in DBZ, it's a sign that if A tanks physical hits from B, then 90% of the time is that A has a larger Ki than B.

So unless you prove that Toriko would have a Higher KI than Goku, I will assume that Toriko wouldn't even budge Goku from his spot, let alone hurt him.

You're believing in that stupid Split Durability crap theory; It never was implied or hinted through out the show, and I suggest you read this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/45ra97/dbz_split_durability_strikes_and_blasts_lets_do/

Quote:

 

No but being thrown in to an island just isn't an impressive feat in general really, unless it's like being smashed through diamond hard rocks. Under that context yeah but we don't have that here.

Quote:

 

This arbitrary scaling of destructive scale is pointless though.

Destroying a moon is not that impressive, it's just a big rock. It's an impressive feat of scale nothing more. Same with a city.
A city level blast can destroy concrete and steel...that's really nothing.
There's nothing within a city that makes that an impressive destructive feat.

It's not like their cities are made of Katchin is it.

Quote:

 

So they're not planet busters then, that's just another arbitrary label you attach to fictional attacks which really means nothing. You can tell me Death Beam contains enough energy to destroy a planet but if I was shot in the shoulder with Death Beam it wouldn't kill me so Steve >>> planet

That is all this arbitrary X buster stuff amounts to, it really doesn't work.

Those ones leaving a crater is irrelevant to Piccolo's blast, they're definitely powerful techniques but Vegeta's blast is still just a city buster or city area buster.
It has no capacity to take out the planet, that's not what the technique does so putting the buster label on it is pointless, do you see what I mean?

All it does is water down what techniques actually do, Death Beam is a much more impressive technique than being an X buster you could attribute it to.

Quote:

 

Prove it.

And...so basically physical attacks are completely pointless yet 99% of every fight comprises of combatants punching and kicking each other until they stop to fire a blast...

Why do they bother if physical attacks are apparently pointless?

Every fight should surely start and end with a beam struggle as evidently that's most efficient by your logic there.

Quote:

 

Again, prove it. When does this ever happen?

It literally never does. You've pulled that out of nothing so you can't project it as fact.

Quote:

 

...so why can weaker characters hurt stronger characters with their fists then?

How did Krillin and Piccolo manage to hurt Nappa at all?

Quote:

 

I've never ever disputed that Ki enhances physical strength there is just no proof what so ever it rises to the ranks of Toriko where people can throw mountains around with raw strength.

If Ki was all that mattered why does their muscle mass increase? Why is Cell's reaction to bulk up to try have the strength to hurt Gohan?
Strength that seems like it could hurt him considering Gohan dodges him at that point.
Unless you want to argue that Cell made himself more powerful than Gohan there but he clearly didn't.


Nappa disproves your no sell argument, Piccolo and Krillin knocked him around like a ping pong ball and remind me what were the differences in PL there? IIRC Nappa is supposed to be around 6000 and Piccolo and Krillin probably weren't even half that...so how did they hurt him if Ki just stops physical hits from an inferior opponent?

Frieza got knocked around a few times too.

Quote:

 

Yes it was people just don't want to believe it so they can continue over rating the power of DBZ characters.

Why does it hurt them to be thrown in to rocks? Split durability.

Quote:

 

I'm not going to read all that link but the first few sections prove nothing the whole Vegeta vs Cell thing being attributed to purely Ki pool can easily work for physicals too.
Vegeta stopped being able to hurt Cell because he became physically strong enough to resist his attacks.

If every 10% increase in Ki gives you even just a 1% increase in physical strength the moment you go 200% above them you are 20% stronger than them physically and they can do nothing to you.
Have an arm wrestle with someone who has 20% more muscle mass than you, you will lose.

That's a non argument since it can work in favour of split durability, because Ki obviously increases strength just not nearly as much as it does energy techniques.

If someone can resist the Ki in a punch they resist the Ki damage.
If they can't resist the physical strength, they take the physical damage which is why weaker characters can launch stronger ones away rather than stronger characters just being immovable objects outright.

Quote:

 

If physical attacks are so useless because you can't put nearly as much Ki in to them why do they use them at all. Why are they they primary method of fighting until a big finisher, explain why that's a logical way to fight when you're wasting your Ki on apparently pointless attacks.

And why do they ever increase their physical strength if it's clearly useless?

Are Dragon Ball characters just stupid fighters or does physical strength matter?

Solid Snake

Jul 29 2017, 10:35 PM

Notaka

Jul 29 2017, 09:02 PM

Quote:

 

So...you haven't read anything about Toriko I take it...WAY crazier stuff than that happens, that's nothing lol.

Alright, is it in the same arc ? Because only Regal Mammoth arc Toriko is allowed.

Quote:

 

No, he survived a weak explosion with a wide radius, nothing more.

All that explosion did was damage the surface of the island, it didn't even hurt people like 5 meters away in a hole. What kind of deadly explosion fails to do that?
It didn't even make a crater.

If it wasn't Island level, it has to be City level; weaker characters such as King Piccolo were able to destroy Cities casually.
And I'm fairly certain it has to be island level, the same Piccolo who got a little bit stronger after 5 years of training was able to destroy the moon, far higher then Toriko ever did.
and leaving a crater or not is irrelevant. plenty of planet busting attacks either leave small craters or not. The aftermath of the kamehameha battle between Cell and Gohan says hi. Vegeta's final atonement says hi too.
so it's either leaving a crater makes no difference whatsoever, or that DBZ characters aren't planet busters which is illogical and ridiculous.

Quote:

 

To an extent, yes but to Toriko's level? No.

Base Buu Arc Goku struggles with 40 tons and then becoming 50x stronger makes him able to lift that easier, 10 tons on each limb that is.
Even if you want to scale strength up linearly which is never demonstrated to happen he's not got anything on most versions of Toriko.

What's to say they couldn't ? They could perfectly raise their stats to the point where they could destroy planets with their fists. They don't because:
Energy attacks are far more viable and effective.
and they raise their physical attributes to bypass their opponents defense. That's the fundamental of DBZ fights.

I'll admit, Toriko is strong physically, but it doesn't matter against Goku, if Goku's ki is higher than Toriko's, then he will no sell all of his punches because he can simply raise his physical attributes to be above of Toriko's. And frankly, I see toriko around the high hundreds and that's being generous. He wouldn't be even able to scratch Raditz.

Also, Goku struggled with 40 tons on 10x of earth's gravity. Can Toriko even walk in 10x gravity ?

Quote:

 

And this is where the massive disconnect in logic happens.

They destroy planets with energy attacks. They can't do that much damage with physical and yet they hurt each other, even characters with less Ki can punch hard enough to hurt their opponent. Semi-Perfect Cell made Vegeta bleed even.

Explain why someone like Toriko who's physical strength far outclasses anyone in Dragon Ball can't hurt them.

They hurt each other because one's ki is higher than the opponent, therefore letting them bypass their durability. It's a fundamentals of DBZ fights.

It's literally like this:
You're ki is higher than your opponents: You can hurt them by using your bare fists, and if you're massively stronger, no sell every attack be it physical or energetic.

If you want to know if Toriko can hurt them or not, Then you have to guess where his powerlevel is.
And powerlevel scales linearly with attack potency, the more stuff you can destroy, the higher your ki is going to be. If Toriko's is a city level buster, then he's around King Piccolo's strength, which is literally a millions of time weaker than this Goku.

If his ki is weaker than Goku's, then there's no way he can bypass his durability.

Also, Semi Perfect Cell made Vegeta bleed because Vegeta was toying with him and let him have a free hit.

Chapter: 379 (DBZ 185), P12.6
Vegeta: “Looks like you really did put all your power into that, and it was merely that level…You’ve disappointed me…! This is so anticlimactic…I came to see just how incredible you were…”

Quote:

 

Considering you've read nothing about Toriko how can you make such a claim and you don't seem to have read anything about Dragon Ball either since Goku never fights like that. Virtually nobody in Dragon Ball does which is why they realistically lose a lot of Other Versus fights with the whole pride spiel and the monologuing crap.

Goku would try to tank an attack and it would destroy him and unlike Toriko he doesn't have regeneration

I don't read toriko that's true. But not reading Dragon ball ?
It seems that you are the one that didn't read; You fail to realize that Physical strength is correlated with KI. Here let me give you proof:


According to Chozenshu 1
-What are the requirements for becoming strong?

-There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”. Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important.

It states that there are physical limit. OK.

Except that these limits can be overcome with KI, meaning that the physical strength can be as high as your damage output.

Further proved by the Dragon ball super exciting guide:

What is the key to winning in battle?

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your check over it. Ki as a concept of course includes spiritual powers such as energy [Genki] courage [Yūki], and right-mindedness [Shoki] 11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki.

Goku even states that when your ki gets higher, so do your physical attributes:
Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”


So Goku would monologue, tanking Toriko's hits and leaving him wondering the hell out why his attacks aren't working.
So unless Toriko has a higher ki pool than Goku(and for that he'd have to be a planet buster), Goku would feel nothing from his attacks, then proceed to knock him out in one hit.

Quote:

 

Ki doesn't absolutely defend you from physical hits, if that were true then strong characters should be immovable objects and yet they get knocked around, Nappa anyone? Sure he was caught off guard but attacks like that generally work if the difference in strength isn't as colossal as Cell vs Krillin, obviously in that case the boost Ki gives is relevant as Cell could beat Krillin in an arm wrestle using an eyelid.

They get knocked around because the fighter fighting them has a higher Ki pool than them. Nappa didn't even bulge against the Z fighters because his ki was larger. Now comes Goku, who looks physically weaker than Nappa, toss him around in their fight because Goku's ki pool is deeper than Nappa's.
And to further bring your argument to the mud; Take a look at Cell vs Gohan SSJ2. At first glance, who do you think looks stronger Physically ?
the 7 Foot tall muscular beast, or the quite toned 11 year old boy ?
Yet cell couldn't even hurt Gohan, whereas Gohan incapacitated Cell with only two hits. And in DBZ, it's a sign that if A tanks physical hits from B, then 90% of the time is that A has a larger Ki than B.

So unless you prove that Toriko would have a Higher KI than Goku, I will assume that Toriko wouldn't even budge Goku from his spot, let alone hurt him.

You're believing in that stupid Split Durability crap theory; It never was implied or hinted through out the show, and I suggest you read this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/45ra97/dbz_split_durability_strikes_and_blasts_lets_do/

I don't disagree, but my logic regarding the character having to have more ki is a bit inaccurate. Now what I believe is that we have to determine if the opponent showed any feats similar to what Dragon Ball fighters faced.

Example, if Goku in Namek saga is planet level, the opponent has to have a feat that puts them around that ballpark in order to even have a chance to hurt Goku. This doesn't use the fact the opponent lacks ki but also gives room for flexibility in Versus topics like these. But overall, I agreed with nearly all you pointed out.

Notaka

Jul 29 2017, 10:39 PM

Quote:

 

Frieza planned to destroy the planet, knowing full well he could survive the planetary explosion. Goku, being far stronger, should survive the planet's explosion. It's the vacuum of space that kills him.
Note that explosions are pure force, so it isn't physical, nor ki based... you know the drill.
now what I am about to ask is: Does Toriko's punches have enough force behind them so that they can destroy the planet ?
if not, then that means Toriko has no means of harming Goku.
Toriko doesn't a single way of harming Goku except hax, While Goku could just blast him with a KI attack.

Quote:

 

And talking about katchin, Can Toriko destroy Katchin ? My guess is that even in his dreams he couldn't.

Quote:

 

Alright, If destroying the moon isn't impressive; why hasn't Toriko showed anything of the sort?

Quote:

 

A gun is deadlier than a sledgehammer, even though a sledgehammer would leave a bigger impact on a wall than the gun does.
Area of effect =/= Attack potency.