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The Great Religious Debate of 2017
Topic Started: Jul 28 2017, 01:49 PM (13,400 Views)
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Ssj3vegito96
Aug 2 2017, 05:01 PM
I'm not sure how that works but from my understanding Jesus died for our sins and so as long as you accept that you are a sinner and that Jesus is your savior then you'll be forgiven

Obviously that doesn't mean go out and intentionally do stupid s*** expecting to be forgiven. Sin is a mistake. You still have to try and be the best you can
What exactly was accomplished by Jesus' sacrifice? Why would god send himself down to earth to die when he already knew that he wasn't actually going to die? What are we to glean from this, and what sins was Jesus dying for exactly? We still sin today. Nothing changed at all.

I know you're going to say that Jesus' sacrifice is important because it established the new, true religion, Christianity. We were meant to break away from Judaism and turn to Christ instead because of his "ultimate sacrifice." But why? What was the purpose? When I think about it more deeply, I can't fathom why god would want to switch ships and send Jesus down. Because the people were sinning more? I mean, good god, they're sinning more today than they ever have before, even after Jesus, so what was the purpose behind that?

It's also worth pointing out that early Christians did not believe that God and Jesus were the same entity. Interesting how Christianity has evolved.

This is purely an opinion piece, so do with that what you will, but I thought it was pertinent:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/03/10-reasons-the-crucifixion-story-makes-no-sense-2/


About your question, ssj3, I would gladly believe if there was evidence to back up such a claim.

Geralt: Drop the sarcasm. This is my thread, and I will report you if you don't quit making a fool of yourself. KEEP IT CIVIL.
Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Aug 2 2017, 05:27 PM.
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Ssj3vegito96
Aug 2 2017, 05:21 PM
I know everyone has their reason but I'm just curious what your guys' reason for not believing that there is a god? I'm not talking about organized religion I'm just talking about a god
There is no evidence for it.
We've already made the comparison to unicorns, leprechauns, bigfoot, etc.
It's honestly like that.
And if there is a God, then who created him?
People like to use God as a cop out to the questions they can't answer themselves. Not believing in a God is really just admitting you can't know everything and can't explain everything. There is after all a limit to our knowledge and to what our brains can comprehend.
There is absolutely no reason to throw a God in there.
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Geralt of Rivia
Aug 2 2017, 05:21 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 2 2017, 05:13 PM
Geralt of Rivia
Aug 2 2017, 05:07 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 2 2017, 05:00 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Aug 2 2017, 04:52 PM
Honestly like OFG said I'm not sure how the Adam and Eve story went down exactly or if it's even meant to be taken totally literally. Maybe God did tell them more than just "hey don't eat from that tree". Anyway, I view them as a spiritual representation of mankind. You can say that it's unfair that we are suffering because of their mistake but in reality you can't say you wouldn't have eventually disobeyed God either. It's egotistical and irresponsible to say you wouldn't have

Yeah God kinda left us to interpret the bible but I think that's why the bible said listening to people like priests is important

Malachi 2:7 For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.

I can't say much for why God left so much room for interpretation though. There are so many branches of Christianity. I've asked the same question. Idk why God is allowing his own followers to disagree. I mean I guess it's also on people for changing what the bible says and making more religions out of it but that wouldn't happen if it was just made clearer
Anybody can become a Priest, though. One person's interpretation isn't more accurate or better than another person's just because they go through the process of becoming a Priest.

@Geralt - Really? If the God of the Quran and the God of the Bible are the same God, why aren't the two holy books identical?

And nice strawman there. Not many people outright reject the possibility, most people just believe that a Deity doesn't exist because the evidence isn't there, not that the possibility is impossible.
Yeah .. so if yoi have zero evidence of something that absolutely means that doesnt exist.

Well tell this to Albert Einstein and his theory of relativity. Because it was only proved a couple of decades ago. And yet still was damn correct


I am not defending anything here. If you believe in the sun god ra or the hindu god krsna or if you think nothing exists its fine. Bit the universe is pretty much eternal and thus the possobilities are quite high that there are quite a few supernatural beings out there at least the possibility is there
No, nobody is saying that. It's just that people don't believe it exists because of the lack of evidence. You're acting as though everyone's flat out said ''God definitely doesn't exist'', while people are saying that they don't believe God exists.

And Einstein had plenty of critics and people who didn't believe his work. Evidence has existed since he came up with it, so stop trying with that false equivalence.

Yes, the possibility is there. There's just no evidence to prove that they actually exist at this point, so we shouldn't believe wholeheartedly that they do.
Evidence ? For special relativity back in the 1920 ??? Haha

Nice try though


If so ... and if there were please post a link so i can enlighten myself
How about the fact that light bent in line with the predictions of the theory when they observed stars during a solar eclipse in 1919? It was during the total solar eclipse on May 29th, and its the thing that made his theory world famous. 1954 is when things became accurate enough to properly confirm the theory, but evidence for the theory in the form of different tests existed before then.

@Vegito - There's just no real evidence for it. If definitive, indisputable proof was found and presented, then yes, I'd believe that a God existed, but until that point, I don't see any point in subscribing to any religion that seeks to control my life and choices.
Edited by Yu Narukami, Aug 2 2017, 05:33 PM.
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@OFG well it certainly establishes what kind of love God has for us for Jesus to do what he did

@ginyu the reason to believe in God is because it honestly makes the most sense to me. I can't believe that everything that happened in this universe, this earth, our existence, life, was just an accident. Things are way too complex and there's an unbelievably small chance of it happening because of chance. So to me this just points to a creator

This is all I can say before my phone dies lol
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Aug 2 2017, 05:38 PM.
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Not at all. He sends the people who don't believe in him to hell, which is significantly worse than dying on a cross and coming back to life again.
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Ssj3vegito96
Aug 2 2017, 05:37 PM
@OFG well it certainly establishes what kind of love God has for us for Jesus to do what he did

@ginyu the reason to believe in God is because it honestly makes the most sense to me. I can't believe that everything that happened in this universe, this earth, our existence, life, was just an accident. Things are way too complex and there's an unbelievably small chance of it happening because of chance. So to me this just points to a creator
So you're saying that our world's complexity means that there simply must have been a creator.
So you would then also assume that this creator must be even more complex right?
But if we then continue to use your logic is means that that creator must've had an even more complex creator.
So we have our complex world. Which was created by God and using your logic we have now also determined there must be a Super God.
But Super God is even more complex. So Super God must have been created by Super Mega God.
And Super Mega God (using the logic here) must have been created by Super Mega Ultra God.

Do you see what I'm doing here?
Edited by Ginyu, Aug 2 2017, 05:41 PM.
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I mean I believe in purgatory so idk if I believe that many people actually go to hell

@ginyu im saying that our worlds complexity coupled with the fact that there is logically more likely a creator than this happening by chance is the reason I believe there is a god. What's wrong with that?

Lol yes I see what you're doing. And I don't disagree. There will always be things we can't comprehend and there will always be questions. That doesn't disprove God
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Aug 2 2017, 05:44 PM.
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Ssj3vegito96
Aug 2 2017, 05:40 PM
I mean I believe in purgatory so idk if I believe that many people actually go to hell

@ginyu im saying that our worlds complexity coupled with the fact that there is logically more likely a creator than this happening by chance is the reason I believe there is a god. What's wrong with that?

Lol yes I see what you're doing. And I don't disagree. There will always be things we can't comprehend. That doesn't disprove God
It doesn't disprove him. As I've already admitted, I can't do that. No one can, we're all agnostic.
It does however show that the logic used in the painting-painter argument is flawed, thus making God's existence even more unlikely.

It most definitely doesn't prove God which was my point.
The burden of proof is still on the theists, not the atheists. You don't hear scientists saying: 'Well, I don't see any arguments against the Big Bang, so if you can't find any it must be true!' And if they are saying it, they're idiots.
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Purgatory doesn't make sense to me, it's essentially saying that Jesus's sacrifice isn't enough. Nor is it mentioned anywhere in the Christian Bible.
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GinyuTokusentai
Aug 2 2017, 05:46 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Aug 2 2017, 05:40 PM
I mean I believe in purgatory so idk if I believe that many people actually go to hell

@ginyu im saying that our worlds complexity coupled with the fact that there is logically more likely a creator than this happening by chance is the reason I believe there is a god. What's wrong with that?

Lol yes I see what you're doing. And I don't disagree. There will always be things we can't comprehend. That doesn't disprove God
It doesn't disprove him. As I've already admitted, I can't do that. No one can, we're all agnostic.
It does however show that the logic used in the painting-painter argument is flawed, thus making God's existence even more unlikely.

It most definitely doesn't prove God which was my point.
The burden of proof is still on the theists, not the atheists. You don't hear scientists saying: 'Well, I don't see any arguments against the Big Bang, so if you can't find any it must be true!' And if they are saying it, they're idiots.
How does your endless chain make it less likely that is there is a god? All it does is prove that we will always have questions about the world. You understand how insanely low the chances of the universe being what it is today and us being here are right? That's my reason for believing there is something. It doesn't make sense to me to say there is probably no god because of lack of concrete evidence even though, to me, it's just obvious that there is a god because of how unlikely it is there isn't. That's all I can say. That's my logic and if you don't agree then we can agree to disagree
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It's one thing to believe that a god could possibly exist out there. It's another thing to believe in an ancient book and a specific subset of religion on top of that. One is definitely more illogical than the other.
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Yeah? Well you're a living meme and Bryan is a QUACK
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Greenough
Aug 2 2017, 05:49 PM
Purgatory doesn't make sense to me, it's essentially saying that Jesus's sacrifice isn't enough. Nor is it mentioned anywhere in the Christian Bible.
This purgatory and the circles of hell arent evem mentioned in the bible

They aee some dante inferno stuff

In hell there s only the lake of fire and thats all

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Ssj3vegito96
Aug 2 2017, 06:12 PM
Yeah? Well you're a living meme and Bryan is a QUACK
So I'm assuming you don't have a rebuttal. lol
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I'm an atheist. The best argument I've heard from religious people and specifically christians and catholics regarding the existence of God on why they think such entity is real is that they have felt Him or have had some sort of spiritual and emotional connection to Him in the past -- which is still too much of a subjective argument anyway, but still in my opinion ten times more valid and pertinent than any random citation you can pull from the Bible. Said connection is often times said to come through during hardships, emotional turmoil and times of need, which is why faith is so commonly associated with healing and serving as a coping mechanism for pain, also why many people have stated that they've turned to God in desperate times and even made Him promises in order to obtain His help -- even non-religious people have often admitted to doing this without being able to logically justify it afterwards, which goes to show how faith can indeed be a powerful tool deeply ingrained in our collective psyche as a species when it comes to primary emotions and more particularly in seeking comfort and safety.
But like I said, this is the best argument I've heard so far and I find it a very weak argument. I'm generally more susceptible to believing in arguments that can be founded by either History or Science as I feel they are not only two of the most reliable knowledge fields, but also very complementary to each other.

I wish I had more time to engage in this discussion fully, but I will say that one study I've always found very interesting specially in direct answer to the argument that religious people feel a connection to God which ultimately shows them He is real is the study made on feral children (aka children raised away from society and often raised by animals) and how it was systematically verified through extensive behavioural and medical exams that they showed absolutely zero signs of any sort of religion connection or spiritual driven thought, which I find to be a more substantial evidence on how religion is truly nothing more than a cultural artefact the same way waving your hand in the air to say hello is a cultural, human construction (obviously a heavily simplified analogy, but you get the drift).

Religion has definitely played a huge role in building a moral code and value system that would then serve as the foundation for the development of western society (though in quite complex and tricky ways filled with way too many bumps, contradictions and questionable motives -- still to this day), but I find their doctrine severely outdated and dangerous at corporation level. Heck, even the Catholic Church finds their own doctrine retrograde evidenced by Pope Francis' entire mandate and the very conscious decision to gradually appease to the advancements of sociological and scientific fields in recent decades.

Another huge thing that has made me an atheist is the fact that History has continuously shown us that those who've stayed on the Church's side throughout its different time periods since the emergence of Christianity and Catholicism were in their vast majority a constant obstacle to progress. It leaves you to wonder how exactly would you live today if it weren't for the people who stood up to the dogmatized religious views that continuously delayed evolution as we know it today and castiziced some of the most brilliant minds to walk this Earth who've paved the way for scientific thought which I believe to be at the basis of human interrelationship in modern society (we probably wouldn't be sitting on our computers right now having this very debate if it weren't for all the people who opposed religion. Like, would we even have computers to begin with without those people? This may sound like a silly question, but it frankly isn't that much of a stretch to imagine we'd be so far behind in every field of human and scientific knowledge that technology most likely wouldn't ever become what we know it to be -- definitely not by today's standards where it's completely normalized to the point where it's mass-induced and completely taken for granted in developed countries).
And although things have obviously gotten drastically better and can't compare in the slightest to how they were in the beginnings of civilization A.D., there is still to this day a proven legacy to religion's retarding effect in the human mind. There are several consolidated studies showing that religious children are less able to distinguish fantasy from reality and are more prone to false categorization and fallacious reasoning. I don't have the chance right now to grab all the sources, but I've studied it in Anthropology and it should be very easy to find everywhere.




ANYWAY, long post dayummm. On a closing note I'd like to thank everybody who's been participating in this discussion and making it so civil and constructive. I've been on this place for over a decade and this type of discussion was literally impossible to have in our first religion debates, so it's refreshing to see how far we've come in listening to each other.
Edited by Strawberry, Aug 2 2017, 09:38 PM.

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