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The Great Religious Debate of 2017
Topic Started: Jul 28 2017, 01:49 PM (13,402 Views)
* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Seems a bit weird that God wouldn't intervene when children are dying from war and diseases because Adam and Eve chose free will and doomed their descendants to eternally be punished by their choice. God does realise that the children who're in bad situations didn't choose to be in them right? They didn't choose free will, they didn't ask to be in a warzone or in a poor village where they can't access fresh, clean water or basic necessities. Any God that would punish innocent children for the 'sins of the father', or however it's justified, isn't worth anybody's time.
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孫悟空

Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 1 2017, 04:16 PM
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Aug 1 2017, 04:13 PM
Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 1 2017, 03:25 PM
Your god condones slavery in the New Testament. Kindness, peace, and love = slavery?
Well you know, from what I've heard, what you're referring to as slavery was more like indentured servitude, and wasn't the grueling experience you may be thinking of.
Not true at all. They were not paid, and it was common to beat and even kill slaves. Neither Jesus nor his apostles ever attempted to correct this.

Luke 12:47
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

For more information: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Bible

Luke 12:47 isn't literal if that's what you're using it as. Slavery was something common in that time and everyone was familiar with it, that's why Jesus used that analogy. It ties with James 4:17 pretty good.

Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. -James 4:17

As well as this verse in John.

Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." -John 9:41
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+ Steve
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

Greenough
Aug 1 2017, 11:46 PM
Steve
Aug 1 2017, 11:31 PM
Obviously the idea is that you worship God, you believe God to be real but you worship it knowing full well you may not get reward and that devotion is supposed to be what gets you in to heaven and such, unconditional faith.

But at the end of it you still ultimately want that reward anyway? It's still out of self interest at the core is it not, so would it really make any difference if we knew God was real?
God gets its worship either way and the insincere probably don't get rewarded.
I don't get what you're saying here. Can you explain it a bit differently?
I'm questioning the point in faith vs knowing God is real.

When it comes down to it people have faith for their own benefit, want they, their friends and their family to have an afterlife. They devote their lives to God for these things and more so...why would knowing God is real really change that?

I don't get why you just have to be satisfied not knowing to be faithful like it's some special noble thing when the faithful and the people who know want the same thing anyway.

Quote:
 
there is some evil that is necessary as hard as it is to accept. Imo at least


Evil by design or by incompetence.
God had to have created the whole balance between good and evil if it created everything, why didn't it just make good the only thing? It should certainly have had the power to.

Quote:
 
He gave us a brain and free will to do with what we want with it

And he punishes us for using said free will, what sense does that make?
"I'm going to give you the power to do whatever you want but you must specifically do these things, for reasons"
Why put free will on the table at all if he doesn't want us to use it?

Quote:
 
I'm tired of this ridiculous logic that god should be taking responsibility for the pain and suffering that WE cause. Where is the lesson in that? Humans always do this. They don't let go of their pride and then they refuse to take responsibility for their actions. That's probably why being too prideful is a sin. You want him to just press backspace or something every time someone does something bad? Or rid us of the ability to do good or evil? What's the point of all this then?


And why shouldn't God? It created the concept of evil, it decided what the rules are, it made it possible to break them even though it annoys him.
Would you put nutella in mac & cheese knowing full well you won't like it?

Why should WE take responsibility when God knows exactly what we're like and makes absolutely no effort to guide us. Nothing. Where has God been the last few thousand years? Sitting about expecting human nature to change when it should know it won't?

God as religion describes is extremely silly and petty.

If God's creations can poke holes in it's logic, why worship it, what is the point in all this we have no idea what God wants from us and it won't just tell us.


Maybe we should just ignore God, the silent treatment does wonders.
If God doesn't care enough about us to try fix some wrongs in the world then why should we bother worshipping it like it's our saviour?
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Greenough
Aug 2 2017, 12:52 AM
Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 1 2017, 04:16 PM
Dankness Flame
Aug 1 2017, 04:13 PM
Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 1 2017, 03:25 PM
Your god condones slavery in the New Testament. Kindness, peace, and love = slavery?
Well you know, from what I've heard, what you're referring to as slavery was more like indentured servitude, and wasn't the grueling experience you may be thinking of.
Not true at all. They were not paid, and it was common to beat and even kill slaves. Neither Jesus nor his apostles ever attempted to correct this.

Luke 12:47
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

For more information: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Bible

Luke 12:47 isn't literal if that's what you're using it as. Slavery was something common in that time and everyone was familiar with it, that's why Jesus used that analogy. It ties with James 4:17 pretty good.

Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. -James 4:17

As well as this verse in John.

Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." -John 9:41
"Slavery was something common in that time and everyone was familiar with it," yet rather than correcting it and saying "Ye shall no longer keep slaves," Jesus uses it as an example in a story. Funny, eh?
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孫悟空

Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 2 2017, 02:30 AM
Greenough
Aug 2 2017, 12:52 AM
Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 1 2017, 04:16 PM
Dankness Flame
Aug 1 2017, 04:13 PM
Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 1 2017, 03:25 PM
Your god condones slavery in the New Testament. Kindness, peace, and love = slavery?
Well you know, from what I've heard, what you're referring to as slavery was more like indentured servitude, and wasn't the grueling experience you may be thinking of.
Not true at all. They were not paid, and it was common to beat and even kill slaves. Neither Jesus nor his apostles ever attempted to correct this.

Luke 12:47
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

For more information: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Bible

Luke 12:47 isn't literal if that's what you're using it as. Slavery was something common in that time and everyone was familiar with it, that's why Jesus used that analogy. It ties with James 4:17 pretty good.

Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins. -James 4:17

As well as this verse in John.

Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." -John 9:41
"Slavery was something common in that time and everyone was familiar with it," yet rather than correcting it and saying "Ye shall no longer keep slaves," Jesus uses it as an example in a story. Funny, eh?
He's not saying the opposite either.
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The point is that he says nothing. He sees slavery going on around him and does absolutely nothing to correct it. You would consider slavery to be immoral, correct? Then why didn't Jesus? He's supposed to be god, after all.
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孫悟空

Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 2 2017, 02:35 AM
The point is that he says nothing. He sees slavery going on around him and does absolutely nothing to correct it. You would consider slavery to be immoral, correct? Then why didn't Jesus? He's supposed to be god, after all.
Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven. -Colossians 4:1

I mean, Jesus doesn't flat out say slavery. (Not directed towards first quote)

Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." -Matthew 19:19
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You didn't refute my claim at all, instead opting to share a passage that also condones slavery.
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Aug 2 2017, 03:05 AM
You didn't refute my claim at all, instead opting to share a passage that also condones slavery.
Ik that.
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So where is the dissention exactly? Do you agree with me that slavery is immoral, and that failing to correct that in his holy text is a huge failure on God's part?
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Aug 2 2017, 03:11 AM
So where is the dissention exactly? Do you agree with me that slavery is immoral, and that failing to correct that in his holy text is a huge failure on God's part?
I wish I could go further, but I really can't. I haven't even been a Christian for a whole year yet. My knowledge is still pretty limited.

So I don't really have an opinion on that. There is nothing that needs corrected though.
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Steve
Aug 2 2017, 02:05 AM
Greenough
Aug 1 2017, 11:46 PM
Steve
Aug 1 2017, 11:31 PM
Obviously the idea is that you worship God, you believe God to be real but you worship it knowing full well you may not get reward and that devotion is supposed to be what gets you in to heaven and such, unconditional faith.

But at the end of it you still ultimately want that reward anyway? It's still out of self interest at the core is it not, so would it really make any difference if we knew God was real?
God gets its worship either way and the insincere probably don't get rewarded.
I don't get what you're saying here. Can you explain it a bit differently?
I'm questioning the point in faith vs knowing God is real.

When it comes down to it people have faith for their own benefit, want they, their friends and their family to have an afterlife. They devote their lives to God for these things and more so...why would knowing God is real really change that?

I don't get why you just have to be satisfied not knowing to be faithful like it's some special noble thing when the faithful and the people who know want the same thing anyway.

Quote:
 
there is some evil that is necessary as hard as it is to accept. Imo at least


Evil by design or by incompetence.
God had to have created the whole balance between good and evil if it created everything, why didn't it just make good the only thing? It should certainly have had the power to.

Quote:
 
He gave us a brain and free will to do with what we want with it

And he punishes us for using said free will, what sense does that make?
"I'm going to give you the power to do whatever you want but you must specifically do these things, for reasons"
Why put free will on the table at all if he doesn't want us to use it?

Quote:
 
I'm tired of this ridiculous logic that god should be taking responsibility for the pain and suffering that WE cause. Where is the lesson in that? Humans always do this. They don't let go of their pride and then they refuse to take responsibility for their actions. That's probably why being too prideful is a sin. You want him to just press backspace or something every time someone does something bad? Or rid us of the ability to do good or evil? What's the point of all this then?


And why shouldn't God? It created the concept of evil, it decided what the rules are, it made it possible to break them even though it annoys him.
Would you put nutella in mac & cheese knowing full well you won't like it?

Why should WE take responsibility when God knows exactly what we're like and makes absolutely no effort to guide us. Nothing. Where has God been the last few thousand years? Sitting about expecting human nature to change when it should know it won't?

God as religion describes is extremely silly and petty.

If God's creations can poke holes in it's logic, why worship it, what is the point in all this we have no idea what God wants from us and it won't just tell us.


Maybe we should just ignore God, the silent treatment does wonders.
If God doesn't care enough about us to try fix some wrongs in the world then why should we bother worshipping it like it's our saviour?
God gave Adam and Eve free will. They chose to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, ignoring Gods command. And you and I would've eventually ignored God too so we can't just say this is totally Adam and Eve's fault. It's that we are all sinners

God does want us to use the free will. Imagine you're a parent. You know before you even had kids they would eventually have the urge to rebel. They have free will though. They will make mistakes and they will learn and become better people because of it. But if there is no free will then there is no learning. Just because there are consequences for actions doesn't necessarily mean free will doesn't exist. That sorta of thing is how I explain the free will concept. Makes sense to me at least.

What do you mean God doesn't make any effort to guide us? He literally came down to our level, in the form of a human, and had a book written to guide us lol. He also gave us the 10 commandments to live by.

I guess you could say Jesus did take responsibility for our actions actually. He paid the price and died for our sins. All he wants you to do is love thy neighbor, accept that we are all sinners, and that he's our savior. That's it. But people still whine and complain that everything wrong in their life is gods fault
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Aug 2 2017, 04:11 AM.
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EMIYA
Jul 29 2017, 11:47 AM
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That's not a rebuttal in a serious discussion, especially if that scientist is Newton that spends most of his life being a Christian.


Except it is a rebuttal. It doesn't matter what a person believes, it matters what evidence they can support and bring to the table. Newton being Christian has zero merit on the argument of God's existence.
Well, that person is believed to be the greatest scientific mind in human history. Plus...

You keep on talking about providing evidence like you demand the bible to give you map coordinates to God's location, but you have no clue on what the bible is. Do you?

^ I'm not denying evidence, I'm all for evidence, but the evidence you guys demand won't be found in the bible because the bible isn't about coordinates and locating where God is, it's about fulfilling ancient prophecies that were written thousands of years ago and prophetic period. It is ultimately a collection of books that explained our origin through God's chosen people and how sin came into the world and the result of sin and how to overcome it.

The names of over 40 different kings of various countries mentioned in the Bible have all been found in documents and inscriptions outside of the Old Testament. There is nothing that exists in ancient literature that has been even remotely as well confirmed in accuracy as has the Bible.

This is why I would like to have a debate with Sam (Mod), but he kindly refused because he was busy. But I wouldn't mind having a proper debate with someone (OFG, other religious members or atheists). But that person has to be patient because I take a week to respond due to my busy schedule. So in this proper debate format, we'll have some time to structure our response and reply to each other's questions and answers and then either refute the claim or concede and move to the next point.

So what do you say? yes/no?

I'm still waiting on Yu Narukami that said "it's not that difficult to get right" to reply my response My Webpage.


Quote:
 
In a similar vein, it's impossible to disprove that unicorns, leprechauns, or anything else of the sort exists either.


:( They're not in the same category because there isn't a book that says "I am a Unicorn, and I created everything and stretched out the heavens by myself" along with historical findings to help support its claim.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Again, it doesn't matter what 'the greatest scientific mind in history' personally believes, it isn't any kind of argument.

The bible is a human (imperfect) collection of stories that exist to paint a picture of human history and God, right? What's to say, just like how many argue it is with Jesus, that these stories have a hint of truth, possibly referring to certain events that happened, but putting the spin on those events by injecting God and religion into them?

And getting the names of some countries right is hardly the same as being right about some ancient deity and the origin of our race, our world and our Universe, is it? Being accurate about certain, non-deity/religious facts doesn't somehow mean that it's right about anything else.

As for how getting it right isn't that impressive, how do you suppose people got that information. Did God tell them ''yo, you're suspended in space''? It was a shot in the dark, because the bible doesn't mention anything outside of the Sun, the Moon and the Earth being created. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of different religions out there with potentially different arguments for the origin of the Universe, the one that barely reflects the actual reality is, by chance, the one that got popular.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

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God gave Adam and Eve free will. They chose to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, ignoring Gods command. And you and I would've eventually ignored God too so we can't just say this is totally Adam and Eve's fault. It's that we are all sinners


This actually brings up an interesting question. Isn't it a little funny how it is God, the benevolent ruler who refuses to give knowledge to humans and punishes them for accepting it. Yet it is the devil, Satan who coaxes us to obtain knowledge. Mankind is thus punished by God for accepting knowledge. Now if God just punished Adam and Eve alone for not listening well, fair enough. But the entire history of mankind is punished.

It's bizarre, in how God wanted mankind to be ignorant of the world and yet it is knowledge that helps us go on. Knowledge is often seen as evil but that evil is constantly making us progress forward. It was not ignorance that made us reach the moon. It was not ignorance that crafted the cure for Polio. It was not ignorance that build the great cities.

You know, it's really starting to look as the roles should've been reversed. It's starting to look as if Satan has done more to help humanity than God ever has. Satan gave us knowledge. Satan didn't try to drown the whole world because of belief.

Or here's an idea, why didn't God just say.

"Adam, Eve, this is the fruit of the tree of knowledge. If you desire to eat it, you will gain vast knowledge of the world. The ignorance that you have will be forever taken but in exchange, the eternal life that you live will be forfeited. You will have to leave Eden live new lives on the world below, creating a new generation after generation. You have free will to accept either choice and either choice will be respected."

There you go, you have a benevolent and understanding God, offering free choice and acceptance of that choice. A god who explains the positives and negatives of both outcomes. Instead what we got was a raging, I'd even go as far as to say, butt-hurt God who lashed out at the entirety of humanity, because two people ate some fruit and actually bettered the lives of humanity afterwards.
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