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The Great Religious Debate of 2017
Topic Started: Jul 28 2017, 01:49 PM (13,404 Views)
* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

You can't disprove God, that's one of the big problems with the idea of God in the first place. It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis, so expecting somebody to disprove God is expecting the impossible.

As for God in general, all it is used for is for filling gaps in our knowledge, or as an explanation for knowledge we already know. It can be applied to any situation, any gap in knowledge, so it's always going to exist as some kind of 'explanation' (non-explanation would be more appropriate, really).
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You can't prove that a god doesn't exist. You also can't prove that one does. That's where science and logic come into play--something that Geralt really doesn't seem to understand. If you can't prove the existence of something using science or logic, why believe it?

I don't "believe" in the big bang. I accept it as the current best explanation for the origin of our universe, but I wouldn't accept it if a better alternative replaced it. That's the difference between my beliefs and those of religion. Even if there was a way to disprove god, religious people would still believe it. That is the nature of religion--a complete absence of logic.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I honestly had a long post but I thin I'll just get to the juicy details.

I think what makes it hard for religious people to readily admit their flaws much less admit they could be wrong, is that it means fundamentally changing the very outlook of their world. Religion has always been something that treats mankind with special feeling. Even the gods create man in their images. Religious people want to believe that their belief is real because it means they will be rewarded in a way that they aren't now. For example, an afterlife.

And thus the idea that this might not be real, is both disheartening and terrifying for some religious people. It's like living in a protective eggshell. This nice protective covering where the world is small, ignorant but happy. Are you willing to break free of that eggshell? You could come into a far bigger world but it could also be a lot scarier? Ignorant but happy? Right but concerned?

That's why for us in science, its more like a collective. For us, death means not existing, there is no afterlife. For religious people, that must be horrifying. For us, its just a nice, long sleep. You might think, well what's the point? Why do anything if you aren't going to be rewarded later on? Our, the science side, reward doesn't come from can help us. it comes from what we can do for others and everyone else and then pass that along through generations. For us, explaining the world is a reward. Being remembered is a reward.

One person, as always name escapes me, I want to say Karl Marx, once said that true immortality comes from the way others remember you. Immortality isn't about living forever, be it here or in the afterlife, but by how others perceive your legacy. As long as someone is there to remember your legacy, you will be immortalized in history. That's what science is like and why we can so readily walk out of the eggshell.

The world is bigger, scarier but also a lot more wonderful.

In the end, here's a question. What's the difference between God and Santa Clause? Both are individuals beyond the normal that require faith to believe in. I'm sure at some point, all of us as children believe in St. Nick. We might even have wrote letters to send to the North Pole. But we are willing to admit that Clause isn't real but for some reason we can't admit that God might not be real?

The reason I think is because even if we admit Clause isn't real, the overall impact doesn't change. You still get to spend time with family, you still get gifts and Christmas doesn't just die once you stop believing in Santa. There's still something you go to that gives the same impression even after you've stopped believing in St. Nick. That's kind of what science is like. Being proven wrong doesn't mean the fundamental sense of the world is broken, it means entering into a new world, with new potential ideas. A lack of afterlife doesn't mean a pointless existence, it means having your legacy continue on in the world.

But for religion, I feel it is different. God is like Santa Clause but with nothing to fall back on.I bring up the eggshell argument again. Perhaps it is better to feel nice, safe and ignorant than to venture out of the eggshell where you might learn more but you might not necessarily have a home to return back to.
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EMIYA
Jul 30 2017, 08:10 PM
I honestly had a long post but I thin I'll just get to the juicy details.

I think what makes it hard for religious people to readily admit their flaws much less admit they could be wrong, is that it means fundamentally changing the very outlook of their world. Religion has always been something that treats mankind with special feeling. Even the gods create man in their images. Religious people want to believe that their belief is real because it means they will be rewarded in a way that they aren't now. For example, an afterlife.

And thus the idea that this might not be real, is both disheartening and terrifying for some religious people. It's like living in a protective eggshell. This nice protective covering where the world is small, ignorant but happy. Are you willing to break free of that eggshell? You could come into a far bigger world but it could also be a lot scarier? Ignorant but happy? Right but concerned?

That's why for us in science, its more like a collective. For us, death means not existing, there is no afterlife. For religious people, that must be horrifying. For us, its just a nice, long sleep. You might think, well what's the point? Why do anything if you aren't going to be rewarded later on? Our, the science side, reward doesn't come from can help us. it comes from what we can do for others and everyone else and then pass that along through generations. For us, explaining the world is a reward. Being remembered is a reward.

One person, as always name escapes me, I want to say Karl Marx, once said that true immortality comes from the way others remember you. Immortality isn't about living forever, be it here or in the afterlife, but by how others perceive your legacy. As long as someone is there to remember your legacy, you will be immortalized in history. That's what science is like and why we can so readily walk out of the eggshell.

The world is bigger, scarier but also a lot more wonderful.

In the end, here's a question. What's the difference between God and Santa Clause? Both are individuals beyond the normal that require faith to believe in. I'm sure at some point, all of us as children believe in St. Nick. We might even have wrote letters to send to the North Pole. But we are willing to admit that Clause isn't real but for some reason we can't admit that God might not be real?

The reason I think is because even if we admit Clause isn't real, the overall impact doesn't change. You still get to spend time with family, you still get gifts and Christmas doesn't just die once you stop believing in Santa. There's still something you go to that gives the same impression even after you've stopped believing in St. Nick. That's kind of what science is like. Being proven wrong doesn't mean the fundamental sense of the world is broken, it means entering into a new world, with new potential ideas. A lack of afterlife doesn't mean a pointless existence, it means having your legacy continue on in the world.

But for religion, I feel it is different. God is like Santa Clause but with nothing to fall back on.I bring up the eggshell argument again. Perhaps it is better to feel nice, safe and ignorant than to venture out of the eggshell where you might learn more but you might not necessarily have a home to return back to.
The problem with that santa claus comparison that while santa claus existence can be easily debunked . Gods existance has not been disproven in the last 2000years
Edited by Pointer, Jul 30 2017, 08:20 PM.

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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I think you might have missed the point of that message. The message was that, even if we disprove Clause and admit he isn't real, the affect it has on people doesn't change. We can still live the same lives as we do, just as happily. The difference with religion is that, if we try to deny it, there isn't necessarily something to fall back on. It can thus be a frightening experience.

In the end, I feel for religious people, it's less about "I know it's real" and more about "I want it to be real." Because if it isn't, what does that mean? If my faith has no use, then what can I fall back on to give me purpose in my life?
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Again, it's impossible to disprove God because of such arguments as 'he exists outside of the Universe' and 'he's beyond our understanding'. Essentially, there's no way to disprove him because apparently he has qualities that make that impossible. Anything else like that is normally pushed off as ridiculous, and rightly so.
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In a similar vein, it's impossible to disprove that unicorns, leprechauns, or anything else of the sort exists either.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

If it hasn't been mentioned yet, this ideology is essentially called "The Devil's Proof."

If we find evidence of God, then the evidence will be proven truth. But a lack of evidence doesn't falsify it. The idea really is that only piece of evidence would be needed to prove that the devil, or unicorns, or leprechauns or anything, to prove it was real. However to prove it as false, you would need to essentially turn over the entire world, check every single nook and cranny, and turn over every rock or check the bottom of all the oceans. Essentially a nigh impossible task at heart.



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I understand why some people don't like organized religion. I'm Catholic and honestly I do think the Catholic Church is flawed

But it's kinda strange to me that people wouldn't want to believe in God. Like don't you want there to be something after this? Why are you trying so hard to disprove God? It doesn't necessarily make you stupid if you believe in God

Of course there's more to it than just believing because you want to believe. To me it just makes sense that there's more to this world.

I just don't agree with the idea that a lot of atheists and scientists spread that it's very egotistical to think that we have a greater purpose in this universe because we're so tiny.

I know some people may not agree with this logic but the probability of you existing the way you are is close to impossible. That's not even considering the chances of the earth and it's orbit around the sun being in just the right conditions for sustaining life, let alone intelligent life, for billions of years. It's really hard for me to believe this all happened by chance even after billions of years.

I understand the universe is also unbelievably huge so of course I'm not going to completely deny that there is other life out there but imo it's definitely not something as far fetched and stupid to believe that there isn't life out there as some people think. Ok the universe is massive. But what the fact that we aren't even sure what the origin of life is? How can you say that it is something common in the universe? If the chance of there being life out there is so much higher than there not being life out there then why haven't we found any solid proof of it?

I have no problem with the Big Bang. I have a problem with it happening by sheer luck. Where did the small but extremely dense mass from? You get the idea

There is no solid evidence of God in my post. I don't believe there will ever be solid evidence God. This is all just my reason for believing

I can go on but I don't like this section of the forum tbh :P
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Why is there war and strife? Why is there murder and anguish? Free will, this is a simple answer that we all know. Would you really want God to be controlling anyways? We live our lives just the way we please. But that murderer, are we really any better than them? All sin is equal under the eyes of God. We are all imperfect beings that can't even look at God he's so perfect. You want proof of God, look around. The proof of God is right in front of you, the proof of God is you. It's just up to you whether you want to believe in the proof. You may think of God if he's real to be a selfish God or an evil God based on the way our world is. The world is Satan's, the prince of the earth. But God gave us a way out, by sending his son Jesus. You may think of Jesus as a trickster or just a man with tricks, but those miracles and signs he performed weren't negative or evil. Why would healing a man to walk, making a blind man see, or bringing a friend back to life be considered wrong? Through his Holy Spirit today we even see such miraculous acts. How can you explain those kinds of instances? If you read the story of Jesus with an open mind and an open heart you can see that there is no hatred or deception in those books, there is only kindness, peace, and love. The Bible tells us that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and I believe that to be true. There is never a point in anyones life where they are too far gone, there is always repentance and acceptance of Christ. It's so easy to deny Christ exists or died for them for people. It's easy to live a life by the way you want it to, we all do that most of the time anyways. I know in my heart and mind that Jesus was real and died on the cross for us, but if hypothetically he wasn't and I live by his teachings. Then in the end my life was still a life that was lived good. There are so many people in this world that claim to be Christians that aren't, only if you truly believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins will you be saved. "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the grave, you will be saved." -Romans 10:9 (NIV) I say there's no good reason to not accept Jesus. He brings healing and love into your life. It's not an easy life many times and people forever will persecute someone for being a Christian, but in the end it'll all be worth it and if you truly do believe in him in your heart and what he did you will be saved I promise you.

Okay this last part kind of got off topic and it's pretty jumbled, it's late.
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Ssj3vegito96
Aug 1 2017, 12:55 AM
I understand why some people don't like organized religion. I'm Catholic and honestly I do think the Catholic Church is flawed

But it's kinda strange to me that people wouldn't want to believe in God. Like don't you want there to be something after this? Why are you trying so hard to disprove God? It doesn't necessarily make you stupid if you believe in God

Of course there's more to it than just believing because you want to believe. To me it just makes sense that there's more to this world.

I just don't agree with the idea that a lot of atheists and scientists spread that it's very egotistical to think that we have a greater purpose in this universe because we're so tiny.

I know some people may not agree with this logic but the probability of you existing the way you are is close to impossible. That's not even considering the chances of the earth and it's orbit around the sun being in just the right conditions for sustaining life, let alone intelligent life, for billions of years. It's really hard for me to believe this all happened by chance even after billions of years.

I understand the universe is also unbelievably huge so of course I'm not going to completely deny that there is other life out there but imo it's definitely not something as far fetched and stupid to believe that there isn't life out there as some people think. Ok the universe is massive. But what the fact that we aren't even sure what the origin of life is? How can you say that it is something common in the universe? If the chance of there being life out there is so much higher than there not being life out there then why haven't we found any solid proof of it?

I have no problem with the Big Bang. I have a problem with it happening by sheer luck. Where did the small but extremely dense mass from? You get the idea

There is no solid evidence of God in my post. I don't believe there will ever be solid evidence God. This is all just my reason for believing

I can go on but I don't like this section of the forum tbh :P
It's not that we don't want to believe. It's just that it seems so illogical and flawed to us.
If I really want unicorns to be real. I'm not going to start believing in them, that would make me an idiot. Unicorns simply don't exist. Too bad! Try to enjoy life without them. Same goes for God. Just because I want there to be heaven or a God doesn't mean I'm going to start believing in them, I'd be fooling myself because I know better.
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Why is there war and strife? Why is there murder and anguish? Free will, this is a simple answer that we all know. Would you really want God to be controlling anyways?

I would rather worship a controlling god than a god who allows child rape to happen on a frequent basis.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
Epicurus

Quote:
 
We live our lives just the way we please. But that murderer, are we really any better than them? All sin is equal under the eyes of God. We are all imperfect beings that can't even look at God he's so perfect.

First of all, god is far from perfect. Just look at the myriad of examples found in your holy text. Secondly, if you think that a child rapist who repents is equal to a repentant liar, you and I clearly don't share the same moral code.

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You want proof of God, look around. The proof of God is right in front of you, the proof of God is you.

Um, no. That's proof of nothing but my own existence.

Quote:
 
It's just up to you whether you want to believe in the proof.

Again. Um, no. That is proof of nothing but my own existence. Yes, I believe that I exist. No, I don't believe in a magical deity.

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You may think of God if he's real to be a selfish God or an evil God based on the way our world is. The world is Satan's, the prince of the earth.

Again we go back to Epicurus. Isn't god supposed to be all-powerful? If Satan can run the earth however he likes, then god isn't actually all-powerful, is he? Or if he is, yet he allows Satan to run the earth, he is not benevolent.

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But God gave us a way out, by sending his son Jesus. You may think of Jesus as a trickster or just a man with tricks, but those miracles and signs he performed weren't negative or evil. Why would healing a man to walk, making a blind man see, or bringing a friend back to life be considered wrong?

I don't think Jesus is a man with tricks. I'm not even convinced that Jesus was a real single person.

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Through his Holy Spirit today we even see such miraculous acts. How can you explain those kinds of instances?

Give me an example and I would gladly explain it scientifically for you.

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If you read the story of Jesus with an open mind and an open heart you can see that there is no hatred or deception in those books, there is only kindness, peace, and love.

Your god condones slavery in the New Testament. Kindness, peace, and love = slavery?
Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Aug 1 2017, 03:28 PM.
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Every sin is equal ? Where does that come from ?

Btw god can be omnipotent even if it refuse to actually prevent bad things to happen


At this rate why jesus was crucified. If he was god he could simply save himself but that has to be done right ?

I mean god's existancecan not be debunked that easily
Edited by Pointer, Aug 1 2017, 04:01 PM.

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Dankness Lava
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Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 1 2017, 03:25 PM
Your god condones slavery in the New Testament. Kindness, peace, and love = slavery?
Well you know, from what I've heard, what you're referring to as slavery was more like indentured servitude, and wasn't the grueling experience you may be thinking of.
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Dankness Flame
Aug 1 2017, 04:13 PM
Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 1 2017, 03:25 PM
Your god condones slavery in the New Testament. Kindness, peace, and love = slavery?
Well you know, from what I've heard, what you're referring to as slavery was more like indentured servitude, and wasn't the grueling experience you may be thinking of.
Not true at all. They were not paid, and it was common to beat and even kill slaves. Neither Jesus nor his apostles ever attempted to correct this.

Luke 12:47
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

For more information: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Bible

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