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The Great Religious Debate of 2017
Topic Started: Jul 28 2017, 01:49 PM (13,406 Views)
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Greenough
Jul 28 2017, 08:43 PM
Steve
Jul 28 2017, 08:41 PM
Yeah I don't get the "Well you can't prove the Big Bang is real so God must exist" angle.
Why would anyone use that kind of argument? Many Christians believe in the Big Bang Theory.
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Its the same canl you prove that the big bang was real ? Can you prove that the universe is " eternal" ?
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I feel like there will probably never be definitive proof of God. I mean if there was then that defeats the purpose of faith

At least that's how I look at it
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jul 29 2017, 03:36 AM.
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I think the idea of God having created the big bang is very plausible.
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Okay cool, so let's make this thread as the main religious debates in 2017. Why don't both sides bring their best arguments and the other side will have time to disprove the argument and vice versa. Agree?

Arguments for God:

#1: Greatest scientists believed in God. Many people here have tried to disprove that claim in this thread

#2: The other argument I hear from pastors is the bible was the first book that got it right with the origin of the universe (starting from nothing) and that the bible explained how the earth was suspended over nothing (book of Job) long before any great ancient civilizations. Also, the prophecies written in the bible have come true.

What are the arguments against these claims?

Would @lazer like to add anything for the religious side? or anyone else?

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Jul 29 2017, 04:26 AM
Okay cool, so let's make this thread as the main religious debates in 2017. Why don't both sides bring their best arguments and the other side will have time to disprove the argument and vice versa. Agree?

Arguments for God:

#1: Greatest scientists believed in God. Many people here have tried to disprove that claim in this thread

#2: The other argument I hear from pastors is the bible was the first book that got it right with the origin of the universe (starting from nothing) and that the bible explained how the earth was suspended over nothing (book of Job) long before any great ancient civilizations. Also, the prophecies written in the bible have come true.

What are the arguments against these claims?

Would @lazer like to add anything for the religious side? or anyone else?

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#1: Greatest scientists believed in God.


What scientists personally believe is entirely irrelevant.

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#2: The other argument I hear from pastors is the bible was the first book that got it right with the origin of the universe (starting from nothing) and that the bible explained how the earth was suspended over nothing (book of Job) long before any great ancient civilizations. Also, the prophecies written in the bible have come true.


It's not really that difficult to get it right though, is it? There are only so many options when you're talking about the origin of the Universe, and that's the easiest one to pick, if it wasn't just them stumbling and getting it right by coincidence. Same goes for the 'prophecies', which can be interpreted vaguely enough that you could point to any action/event in history and say that it's the prophecy coming true.
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Scientists believing in God is not an argument for God to exist, they are just the people who are doing the arguing. If you were a leading scientist who believed in God, you couldn't exactly say 'well, the number one argument for the existence of God is that I believe in God'.
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What scientists personally believe is entirely irrelevant.


That's not a rebuttal in a serious discussion, especially if that scientist is Newton that spends most of his life being a Christian.


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It's not really that difficult to get it right though, is it? There are only so many options when you're talking about the origin of the Universe, and that's the easiest one to pick, if it wasn't just them stumbling and getting it right by coincidence. Same goes for the 'prophecies', which can be interpreted vaguely enough that you could point to any action/event in history and say that it's the prophecy coming true.


Really, then explain what did the ancient Greeks, Indians, etc believe was holding up the earth? Do you know what they came up with as an explanation?

Today, we all know the earth suspends over nothing (no strings, no one or no turtle or rock), however, ancient people could not imagine that. They all firmly believe that the earth was fixed on something. Isacc Newton came up with the Laws of Universal Gravity in the 17th century.

However, the Book of Job was written 3,500 years ago and it described how the earth was suspended over nothing. How was that possible at a time when humans could not even know that? Especially when scientists today call them iron age peasants. Like Come on, give them some credit, especially when great powerful empires got it wrong for a long time.

Also, the bible got the water cycle correct in the book of Job. But it wasn't until Perrault and Marriotte who discovered the water cycle in the 16th-17th century.

Anyway, looks you guys failed to counter anything about the bible prophecies.

Should I give you guys some time to counter ^ or should I continue about prophecies in the bible that went as according as described?



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That's not a rebuttal in a serious discussion, especially if that scientist is Newton that spends most of his life being a Christian.


Except it is a rebuttal. It doesn't matter what a person believes, it matters what evidence they can support and bring to the table. Newton being Christian has zero merit on the argument of God's existence.
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It s quite funny how the agnostics and atheists here tried to grasp the proof of gods existence when they supposed to " aint give a **** about it


As i have said above ... for a believer an evidence is not necessary. This thread ia like. Bashing the believers ( asking for proof of their beliefs) for what they believe in something which has no evidence. Cmon..


Btw ofg that big bang stuff is as much real as you think god is. You know the big bang is a Theory with zero proof. But it seems no matter how many times i tell this to you. You just flat out refuse to take it. The big bang is a theory. I think the better approach scientifically would be the string theory or the quantum gravity theory. But ppl still take this 50years old theory as some kind of truth. Yeah i know we have read about it in the early physics books when we were children. And thats why we believe it to be "true" but as every theory this has quite a few flaws in it thus It is not yet proven to be true not that so called theory of darvinism if i want to be precise.

Religions dont require any proof of their gods existance. I am a man of science i love every aspect of it. But i have also open mind which i use to examine both side of the same coin. I suggest you to do the same

Edited by Pointer, Jul 29 2017, 12:30 PM.

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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

So basically, you don't have to give proof, you just have to automatically believe it and if you don't, too bad? And people wonder why there are more atheists and agnostics in the world than ever before. Yeah, we want to know about God's existence. People in power are constantly trying to shove religion down our throats, trying to dictate society by the rules of a 2,000+ year old book and seemingly fail to grasp the major flaws and issues that their religion and their so called God itself have.

If none of you can directly tell me why you think God is real with substantial and understandable evidence, perhaps you all should re-evaluate your belief system and see why you truly follow your religion. Because at this point, not one of you, not a single one of you, not a single person outside of this forum, not one single person in the whole world., has given any credible source that we should believe that a divine being exists in the world.

Do you know why this is so bothersome to us? Because not only do you fail to give any rationality to your belief. But this same system is constantly pressured on us. How many times has religion persecuted the non-believers? How many times has society had follow by law this ideology that can't be backed up by any means. How many times has religion dictated the sets of sexuality, marriage and even human rights?

We, as believers in logic and science and rationality, are forced to stand with an ideology that is fundamentally flawed and has been directly harm to society as a whole.

At this point, anyone who readily believes in a god but has no way to back it up beyond "faith" should readily admit that their faith is potentially flawed and wrong. You should readily admit right now that, you don't have any proof or reasoning. You should admit right now that there is a part, I'd say a very big part in fact, but a part, that your belief in this system is both flawed and potentially incorrect.

Science does it all the time. We readily admit that our theories have issues and can easily change with the addition of new information and evidence. Can those of the religious side take that same stance?
Edited by EMIYA, Jul 29 2017, 12:44 PM.
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EMIYA
Jul 29 2017, 12:43 PM
So basically, you don't have to give proof, you just have to automatically believe it and if you don't, too bad? And people wonder why there are more atheists and agnostics in the world than ever before. Yeah, we want to know about God's existence. People in power are constantly trying to shove religion down our throats, trying to dictate society by the rules of a 2,000+ year old book and seemingly fail to grasp the major flaws and issues that their religion and their so called God itself have.

If none of you can directly tell me why you think God is real with substantial and understandable evidence, perhaps you all should re-evaluate your belief system and see why you truly follow your religion. Because at this point, not one of you, not a single one of you, not a single person outside of this forum, not one single person in the whole world., has given any credible source that we should believe that a divine being exists in the world.

Do you know why this is so bothersome to us? Because not only do you fail to give any rationality to your belief. But this same system is constantly pressured on us. How many times has religion persecuted the non-believers? How many times has society had follow by law this ideology that can't be backed up by any means. How many times has religion dictated the sets of sexuality, marriage and even human rights?

We, as believers in logic and science and rationality, are forced to stand with an ideology that is fundamentally flawed and has been directly harm to society as a whole.

At this point, anyone who readily believes in a god but has no way to back it up beyond "faith" should readily admit that their faith is potentially flawed and wrong. You should readily admit right now that, you don't have any proof or reasoning. You should admit right now that there is a part, I'd say a very big part in fact, but a part, that your belief in this system is both flawed and potentially incorrect.

Science does it all the time. We readily admit that our theories have issues and can easily change with the addition of new information and evidence. Can those of the religious side take that same stance?

If you think faith is flawed and wrong. That just proves how narrow minded you actually are . You have zero proof of something and you say it is bulls*** and it is flawed. :huh:


Dont take it as an offense. But you flat out stated this. Faith is flawed thus every non agnostic non atheists are automatically believe in a flawed thing. Why do you think it is flawed ? At this rate the ufo believers are flawed too ? We have zero evidence in extraterrestial life and yet science said the possibility that they exists is quite high. Are they flawed too ?






Oh man.... the problem with atheists is only their narrow mindedness

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Geralt of Rivia
Jul 29 2017, 01:06 PM
EMIYA
Jul 29 2017, 12:43 PM
So basically, you don't have to give proof, you just have to automatically believe it and if you don't, too bad? And people wonder why there are more atheists and agnostics in the world than ever before. Yeah, we want to know about God's existence. People in power are constantly trying to shove religion down our throats, trying to dictate society by the rules of a 2,000+ year old book and seemingly fail to grasp the major flaws and issues that their religion and their so called God itself have.

If none of you can directly tell me why you think God is real with substantial and understandable evidence, perhaps you all should re-evaluate your belief system and see why you truly follow your religion. Because at this point, not one of you, not a single one of you, not a single person outside of this forum, not one single person in the whole world., has given any credible source that we should believe that a divine being exists in the world.

Do you know why this is so bothersome to us? Because not only do you fail to give any rationality to your belief. But this same system is constantly pressured on us. How many times has religion persecuted the non-believers? How many times has society had follow by law this ideology that can't be backed up by any means. How many times has religion dictated the sets of sexuality, marriage and even human rights?

We, as believers in logic and science and rationality, are forced to stand with an ideology that is fundamentally flawed and has been directly harm to society as a whole.

At this point, anyone who readily believes in a god but has no way to back it up beyond "faith" should readily admit that their faith is potentially flawed and wrong. You should readily admit right now that, you don't have any proof or reasoning. You should admit right now that there is a part, I'd say a very big part in fact, but a part, that your belief in this system is both flawed and potentially incorrect.

Science does it all the time. We readily admit that our theories have issues and can easily change with the addition of new information and evidence. Can those of the religious side take that same stance?

If you think faith is flawed and wrong. That just proves how narrow minded you actually are . You have zero proof of something and you say it is bulls*** and it is flawed. :huh:


Dont take it as an offense. But you flat out stated this. Faith is flawed thus every non agnostic non atheists are automatically believe in a flawed thing. Why do you think it is flawed ? At this rate the ufo believers are flawed too ? We have zero evidence in extraterrestial life and yet science said the possibility that they exists is quite high. Are they flawed too ?






Oh man.... the problem with atheists is only their narrow mindedness
Well the difference is, apparently scientists agree that a deity like God has a small chance of existing I think?
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Dankness Flame
Jul 29 2017, 01:12 PM
Geralt of Rivia
Jul 29 2017, 01:06 PM
EMIYA
Jul 29 2017, 12:43 PM
So basically, you don't have to give proof, you just have to automatically believe it and if you don't, too bad? And people wonder why there are more atheists and agnostics in the world than ever before. Yeah, we want to know about God's existence. People in power are constantly trying to shove religion down our throats, trying to dictate society by the rules of a 2,000+ year old book and seemingly fail to grasp the major flaws and issues that their religion and their so called God itself have.

If none of you can directly tell me why you think God is real with substantial and understandable evidence, perhaps you all should re-evaluate your belief system and see why you truly follow your religion. Because at this point, not one of you, not a single one of you, not a single person outside of this forum, not one single person in the whole world., has given any credible source that we should believe that a divine being exists in the world.

Do you know why this is so bothersome to us? Because not only do you fail to give any rationality to your belief. But this same system is constantly pressured on us. How many times has religion persecuted the non-believers? How many times has society had follow by law this ideology that can't be backed up by any means. How many times has religion dictated the sets of sexuality, marriage and even human rights?

We, as believers in logic and science and rationality, are forced to stand with an ideology that is fundamentally flawed and has been directly harm to society as a whole.

At this point, anyone who readily believes in a god but has no way to back it up beyond "faith" should readily admit that their faith is potentially flawed and wrong. You should readily admit right now that, you don't have any proof or reasoning. You should admit right now that there is a part, I'd say a very big part in fact, but a part, that your belief in this system is both flawed and potentially incorrect.

Science does it all the time. We readily admit that our theories have issues and can easily change with the addition of new information and evidence. Can those of the religious side take that same stance?

If you think faith is flawed and wrong. That just proves how narrow minded you actually are . You have zero proof of something and you say it is bulls*** and it is flawed. :huh:


Dont take it as an offense. But you flat out stated this. Faith is flawed thus every non agnostic non atheists are automatically believe in a flawed thing. Why do you think it is flawed ? At this rate the ufo believers are flawed too ? We have zero evidence in extraterrestial life and yet science said the possibility that they exists is quite high. Are they flawed too ?






Oh man.... the problem with atheists is only their narrow mindedness
Well the difference is, apparently scientists agree that a deity like God has a small chance of existing I think?
And they agree based on what ? At this rate an ancient roman scientist could also agree that exraterrestial lifeforms dont exists... or there is no way that theres millions of millions of galaxies.
Edited by Pointer, Jul 29 2017, 02:01 PM.

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Geralt of Rivia
Jul 29 2017, 11:52 AM
It s quite funny how the agnostics and atheists here tried to grasp the proof of gods existence when they supposed to " aint give a **** about it


As i have said above ... for a believer an evidence is not necessary. This thread ia like. Bashing the believers ( asking for proof of their beliefs) for what they believe in something which has no evidence. Cmon..
If you think it's 'bashing somebody's belief' just to ask why they believe in something, then you aren't the 'man of science' you claim to be. Science is about questions and answers, proof and evidence, actual intelligent thought processes, not just 'well I believe because faith'. We're not even asking for certifiable proof:
Quote:
 
Religious believers, could any of you offer proof that a god exists? Or explain your position in some other way?

If the simple question of 'why do you believe in God?' can't be answered, then why are you even religious in the first place? Religion is supposed to mean something to it's followers, so it should be easy enough to answer what it is that drew you to it, why you believe it to be true, have you had any religious experiences etc.

Also, again, if you had read the opening post then you would have seen the 'Keep it civil' in bright green letter. That doesn't include personal attacks on those on the other side of the debate.

Regarding faith, if your only argument is 'but I don't have to have any reasons or proof, I have faith' then the discussion is not going to go anywhere. Faith is flawed. There's no getting around that. If you throw yourself off a bridge because you have faith that somebody will throw cushions on the floor to break your fall, is that not flawed? Sure, there's a possibility it'll happen, but evidence suggests you'll probably die. You mentioned UFO believers, but you won't meet a UFO believer who wouldn't have evidence to point you to. Sightings, personal experiences etc. They may not be foolproof pieces of evidence, but they're still evidence nonetheless. So, I'll ask again for everybody: what personally led you to believe in a God and what is it that sustains that belief?
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Geralt of Rivia
Jul 29 2017, 11:52 AM
It s quite funny how the agnostics and atheists here tried to grasp the proof of gods existence when they supposed to " aint give a **** about it


As i have said above ... for a believer an evidence is not necessary. This thread ia like. Bashing the believers ( asking for proof of their beliefs) for what they believe in something which has no evidence. Cmon..


Btw ofg that big bang stuff is as much real as you think god is. You know the big bang is a Theory with zero proof. But it seems no matter how many times i tell this to you. You just flat out refuse to take it. The big bang is a theory. I think the better approach scientifically would be the string theory or the quantum gravity theory. But ppl still take this 50years old theory as some kind of truth. Yeah i know we have read about it in the early physics books when we were children. And thats why we believe it to be "true" but as every theory this has quite a few flaws in it thus It is not yet proven to be true not that so called theory of darvinism if i want to be precise.

Religions dont require any proof of their gods existance. I am a man of science i love every aspect of it. But i have also open mind which i use to examine both side of the same coin. I suggest you to do the same

The Big Bang Theory is not a theory with zero proof. A theory with zero proof does not exist. Scientific theories are the closest we can get to a truth. Do you deny evolution as well? How about gravity? Those are both theories as well. There's tons of proof for the Big Bang if you just bother to look for it. Ever heard of cosmic microwave background radiation? Primordial gas clouds?
Using the Big Bang theory it should even be possible to calculate the concentrations of certain isotopes in the universe, and guess what, we've made those predictions and they're right.
The Big Bang theory has lots of evidence.

As to why I don't bother to look at both sides of the coin as you put it: It's simple. Science is trustworthy, you can test it, re-test it and get the same results. You can predict using science. Science questions itself and wants to be proven wrong. Religion on the other hand has no foundation. You just have to belief in it and there's is zero confirmation of any of it being true. Without faith in a particular religion the religion doesn't get you anywhere, without faith in science, there's still science, whether you want it or not. The experiments and results are still there. It's observational and undeniable.

For those who wondered. I used to be catholic. I was raised catholic but slowly became atheist when I was about 11 years old. On Richard Dawkins' spectrum of theistic probability I'd rank myself a 6: De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."

Oh yeah, and I guess I should say I'm agnostic, even though everybody is whether they like it or not.
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