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The Great Religious Debate of 2017
Topic Started: Jul 28 2017, 01:49 PM (13,390 Views)
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Gravity has nothing to do with faith. Scientists didn't just make something up willy-nilly and test it on faith. They observed something happening and put the pieces together based on other earthly properties that were previously known.

Same with evolution. Fossils were discovered, which lead scientists to question why they looked different from what we see on earth today. No faith required for either example. If scientists based their investigations on faith, then we'd have wasted more time and investment money than you could possibly imagine.
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Tinny
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Aug 23 2017, 11:01 PM
Gravity has nothing to do with faith. Scientists didn't just make something up willy-nilly and test it on faith. They observed something happening and put the pieces together based on other earthly properties that were previously known.

Same with evolution. Fossils were discovered, which lead scientists to question why they looked different from what we see on earth today. No faith required for either example. If scientists based their investigations on faith, then we'd have wasted more time and investment money than you could possibly imagine.
Your belief in gravity does however (I assume, you might've tested it at some point). You haven't done the experiments yourself, you have faith in the scientists who propagate the (I would like to add right now, very likely true) idea of gravity as a force that keeps everything in the solar system going as it is. And you have faith in evolution in the way that you have faith that there is real proof and that say, there isn't some conspiracy creating them or that the scientists aren't somehow wrong. The difference between science and religion in this case is that science A: Uses it as a starting point to learn more about the world without assumptions as to what the result of their experiment is gonna be and B: that scientists are generally more likely to change their mind about something. If we found absolute undeniable truth that gravity isn't true and that our method of measuring it was wrong, we'd likely change to a new system that accommodates that new information and have faith in that. And to be fair, this wouldn't exactly be the first time 'science' as a monolithic thing has been wrong. We don't believe in the four humors nor do we believe that Asians are driven by shame, we have proven those things wrong, gotten better new information to tell us more about the human and the human body, and moved on with faith in that.

Science does begin with faith, however what science has faith in changes as new information comes forth.


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In that case, what does that change? Everything requires some degree of faith, because you'd have to have faith in the scientists that have done the work and discovered things, so you'd need faith for every tiny aspect of your life. If we act on that assumption, and faith is a pre-requisite for everything, does that change anything?
What do you mean specifically? As an example, you have faith the Earth is round without being in space or somehow proving that yourself. You simply take it for granted, and proceed with that assumption. From there, scientists make tests on things they don't have assumptions on, that they don't have faith in. And a major difference between science and religion here is of course, that science can change what it has faith in upon the discovery of new information and form new ideas that accommodate that new information, and generally that it's a case of not reproving that the Earth is round over and over again and going beyond what (and they have faith in this) is already proven.




I suppose to sum it up quickly. New discoveries are not made in faith, however experiments do utilize faith in that they assume previous information that they're building on is correct.
Edited by Tinny, Aug 23 2017, 11:13 PM.
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I didn't say science and faith were the same but the constant throwing around of "science tm" was bothering me.
Edited by lazerbem, Aug 23 2017, 11:18 PM.
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What was bothering you specifically?
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Tinny
Aug 23 2017, 10:56 PM
Well as an example of faith in science, you haven't checked to see that it is water vapor right? You took someone's word for it that it's water vapor without testing it yourself, (for the record, I also believe that the "chem trails" are just water vapor and that the people who don't believe this are... well conspiracy theorists) that is faith. Faith in the scientists and the government or whoever who writes or says that the trails are fake. Science is a lot more likely to change it's views depending on new evidence, but future scientists and future experiments will be held while having faith in that new standard. They are demonstrably true, but we haven't exactly gone out to demonstrate it, so it's ultimately faith that we know these things are how they are.
Actually done various things with water vapour in Chemistry and Physics class :p

The more extreme stuff obviously a regular person can't just go test, I can't prove to you the world is round instance.

But with science so many different people with different methods tackle the same problem and when they basically all come to the same solution it's either absolute fact or a massively well crafted lie. It'd be illogical not to believe. It's faith in an absolute literal sense for sure but not in a religious sense at all.

Religion is thousands of people believing one thing with no real way to test any of it, occasionally some people will interpret it a different way and spawn a new religion. But it requires many people who don't feel the need to look deeper in to things to have faith in it.
Best example being children, most children will believe anything if you're convincing enough hence why religion works so well the way it's taught.




I don't think anyone is really indoctrinated in to being an atheist or questioning things, they're just generally shown that to be the logical path.
You can be told by one dude that the Earth began 6000 years ago but then someone can come along with a fossil much older than that and actively prove them wrong. The opposite never happens unless someone is ludicrously suggestible.

Not many people religiously believe everything that comes out of Stephen Hawkings computer, he's just one guy with scientific knowledge, whenever he's saying humanity is doomed or some other miserable crap people seek second opinions.
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What was bothering you specifically?

Science=atheism isn't a thing. Pure logic=atheism isn't a thing either. I don't know why they're remotely relevant to a discussion over what a person believes in a manner that is inherently impossible to prove(as admitted by anyone).

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I don't think anyone is really indoctrinated in to being an atheist or questioning things, they're just generally shown that to be the logical path.

It's logical to assume that there is no higher power to someone who is just wandering the wilderness alone? Are you so sure of that? Everything is taught, and if we're speaking in regards to someone with no education who is just vacuum spawned somewhere with the ability to survive randomly, I find it difficult to believe that at some point they would not question their origins or think about anything beyond them.
Edited by lazerbem, Aug 24 2017, 12:26 AM.
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lazerbem
Aug 24 2017, 12:25 AM
It's logical to assume that there is no higher power to someone who is just wandering the wilderness alone? Are you so sure of that? Everything is taught, and if we're speaking in regards to someone with no education who is just vacuum spawned somewhere with the ability to survive randomly, I find it difficult to believe that at some point they would not question their origins or think about anything beyond them.
No, it's logical to follow science and questioning things because it actually gives you some answers. Religion doesn't unless you believe everything you're told.

A scientist can tell you a cannonball will float in Mercury and you might find that ridiculous but they can also show that's true.

No religious person, ever, can show you that there's a higher power watching over you, unless they try to deceive you in some way.
It also tells you never to question the belief and question is something humans almost always want to do.
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Science=atheism isn't a thing. Pure logic=atheism isn't a thing either.

Well, technically no, those terms aren't synonyms, nor do they share remotely the same definition. Science is the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment, which has nothing to do with God on its own. Atheism is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

I'm not sure what pure logic is, but logic is reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

They are not synonyms terms--none of them are--so I'm assuming you have an issue with the way that science and atheism are used together in threads like this one? It's relatively simple. Science rejects claims that lack any substantial evidence, much in the same way that atheists reject the god claims because they lack substantial evidence. A person uses the scientific method to come to their conclusion; however, they are obviously not synonymous terms.

On the contrary, religion does not implement the scientific method when coming to its conclusion that a god exists.

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I don't know why they're remotely relevant to a discussion over what a person believes in a manner that is inherently impossible to prove(as admitted by anyone).

I don't know. I'm not the one who brought up the terms and attempted to conflate them all.

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It's logical to assume that there is no higher power to someone who is just wandering the wilderness alone?

Yes? Unless this person had no knowledge of science or the way the world works and thought that rain was coming from some man in the sky crying, I really don't think there's any reason to believe that a single person would come up with an entire religion or believe in a deity on their own. Why would someone wandering in the wilderness even need a higher power to begin with? What happened to make them think that one existed, or that they needed one on their side? Your example is strange.

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Are you so sure of that? Everything is taught, and if we're speaking in regards to someone with no education who is just vacuum spawned somewhere with the ability to survive randomly, I find it difficult to believe that at some point they would not question their origins or think about anything beyond them.

Exactly. Everything is taught, including religion. We didn't just spawn onto the planet one day believing in god. We saw something like a thunderbolt, discussed its existence together, and reached the only logical conclusion we could possible arrive at--it must be supernatural--because this was long before the scientific method existed. Now that the scientific method exists, there is no reason to come to such conclusions or think about the world in such a way.
Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Aug 24 2017, 02:14 PM.
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Well, you don't need religion to believe in a higher power.
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No, you don't, but it's the exact same mentality. Why believe in one at all? You can identify as a Christian without going to church or taking part in the more religious aspects, or you could just be "spiritual" and believe in some Mother Earth Goddess if you like, but why? What is the purpose at this point in time, when we have the scientific method to explain the way the world works?
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Because Science can give us answers, but it cannot always give us closure or certainty. And there ars times when those three words do not line up together, which is often where faith resides.

It is foolish from a logical, scientific point of view. But by dint of not using a logical scientific point of view for a basis, does it matter? So long as the person is happy and doesn't do insane crap that endangers another, does his matter where their faith resides?

In my opinion......not one damn bit.
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I'm simple-minded on this matter.

1. I was baptized by the Orthodox Church, but then, since 8-9 I began reading all kinds of encyclopedias and wondering why does religion say one thing and science, some other? That was the point where I chose to start from 0, nothing, tabula rasa, clear minded (not a nihilist lol) and give everything a chance. Every idea and concept I'd come across, I would analyze it and if it's reasonable enough for my humble brain logical-system, I would believe it. That's why I don't believe in any religion / faith, at all. I don't necessarily dismiss it either, but it's incredible how most religious people would go anywhere to defend their belief not because they have real proof for it, but because they are taught since they are born that that's what they should believe. Children's brains are like sponges until 4 years-old or even later, so they absorb any information you give them and 'send' it to their subconscious. That's why many people grow up believing in the deity / etc. their parents, grandparents, ancestors believed in too, 'by default', without questioning themselves if it makes sense or not, but rather feeling the need to justify it one way or another, in front of other people. I wonder how many of these people, if given the chance, say, to start their lives without anyone telling them or persuading them about anything...would choose the exact same belief / religion they have right now. Because religion is indeed, in my opinion, a superstition / idea propagated through generations and molded early into young people's minds. That's why I felt the need to 'escape the system' and find out what I really believe and feel, not my family, not my friends, not my country.
P.S. Notice how I used 'most', 'many' when talking about religious people? So nobody would get triggered.

2. Like Socrates said, the only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. We all have our own documentation, culture, opinions, but still, our knowledge is limited. Unless someone read all the science books, theories, religious books etc. that are out there and retained everything, we can't say our opinions are 100% accurate. There is a certain point for everybody from which they won't be able to sustain their point of view anymore. So yada-yada, we are all subjective creatures, we know some stuff from science, some stuff from religion, some of us more or less than the others, point is that... none of us can fully master their beliefs, only believe they might be true. It's like an endless sea of relativity. So, before going into any religious debate, I simply keep in mind that: 'Hey, I'm stupid, you're stupid, everyone's stupid, we are all just some walking-star-dusts with opinions'.

I won't condemn you for anything you believe in, be it a deity, or more, or aliens, or this forum's banner or etc. as long as you don't condemn me back or put me down for what I, myself, believe in (science). Or try to insist on me adopting your point of view. Or harm other people because your religion tells you so (grr extremists). Yeah I know, I must be a lot fun at parties...
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Daemon Keido
Aug 29 2017, 02:39 PM
Because Science can give us answers, but it cannot always give us closure or certainty. And there ars times when those three words do not line up together, which is often where faith resides.

It is foolish from a logical, scientific point of view. But by dint of not using a logical scientific point of view for a basis, does it matter? So long as the person is happy and doesn't do insane crap that endangers another, does his matter where their faith resides?

In my opinion......not one damn bit.
It does when people start to indoctrinate children with their illogical beliefs, or when they come together and sell simple unfounded beliefs as facts.
It's even worse when people with the same illogical belief band together and have aversion towards people who do not share their views.
Over generations more people get caught up in the same illogical way of thinking and also band together. The aversion grows stronger and even violent.
Give it enough time and eventually we get genocide, crusades, ISIS and the Israel/Palestine situation.

All those deaths and pain for what? For our fantasy filling in gaps we simply haven't filled up up already with scientific knowledge.
Edited by Ginyu, Aug 29 2017, 04:07 PM.
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Aug 29 2017, 04:06 PM
Daemon Keido
Aug 29 2017, 02:39 PM
Because Science can give us answers, but it cannot always give us closure or certainty. And there ars times when those three words do not line up together, which is often where faith resides.

It is foolish from a logical, scientific point of view. But by dint of not using a logical scientific point of view for a basis, does it matter? So long as the person is happy and doesn't do insane crap that endangers another, does his matter where their faith resides?

In my opinion......not one damn bit.
It does when people start to indoctrinate children with their illogical beliefs, or when they come together and sell simple unfounded beliefs as facts.
It's even worse when people with the same illogical belief band together and have aversion towards people who do not share their views.
Over generations more people get caught up in the same illogical way of thinking and also band together. The aversion grows stronger and even violent.
Give it enough time and eventually we get genocide, crusades, ISIS and the Israel/Palestine situation.

All those deaths and pain for what? For our fantasy filling in gaps we simply haven't filled up up already with scientific knowledge.
I have to disagree, religion does not shape people like a squid in everyone's mind, it is shaped by the people and the culture like mqny other symbols, especislly when you get to a point like ISIS, Isreal/palastine, and yes, the crusades.

The problem you're referring to is elitism, or an aversion to those who are different and can just a easily, and in my experience has, resulted in all those same attitudes.
Becoming an atheist doesn't stop someone from being bigoted against race or sexuality, and I know this because I've seen exactly that, especislly from the rational skeptic community on YouTube, and conversations in the web with self identified aitheists.

Genocide has just as easily been undertaken by groups such as the Nazis and mass slaughter by many communist regimes, the crusades were called in past by spice and another by the pope trying to consolidate political power by getting an orthadox patriarch in his debt, the men who went forward very often fought with jews and even other Christians desire being there to fight the muslims. The only real part you could aggie was religious was that the men who went, the foot soldiers believed they were getting a pardon for eBay act before and during this with the crusade. Religion wad but one of many reasons, and even them it arguably prevented the fighting from being in Europe amongst each other, and instead aimed at the foreign turks and muslims. ISIS may be religious fundamentalists, but their traditions are more reactionary, drawing from local traditions rather than specifically muslim ones. Isreal and Palastine is entirely an ethnic issue over the fact that Britain promised the same land to more than one group, and while religion is part of the rhetoric, this stuff didn't start until The UK left it's mark, during the Ottomans they were perfectly fine (especislly compared to now) despite there being muslim, christians, and jewish people.

Its not over religion and fantasy, and to say otherwise is to oversimplify the conflict in the same way that causes these all to appear, they're at best only part of the blame for providing a narrative for people to use, not to encourage this, but to justify it. Often after it's already been decided on.

These deaths don't happen because a fantasy, they happen because of real political and ethnic tensions boiling over into violence.
Edited by Tinny, Aug 29 2017, 04:42 PM.
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I think the main flaw in your argument, Tinny, is that the Bible and the Qu'ran do in fact say terrible things. Were these texts taken literally by every religious person who read them, we may have to deal with even greater issues worldwide than we have currently. Blaming the actions of a few on something cultural rather than the religions themselves is just lying to yourself. It is not "elitism" to take these texts literally, and I tend to disagree with the terms "radical Islam" or "radical Christianity" for that exact reason. It isn't actually radical to take these books at face value. "Radicalization" would imply that they manipulate the text in some way to make it say something that isn't there, or to amplify a certain message. That doesn't seem to be the case. Not always, at least.

"Normal" religious persons have to do quite a bit of cherry-picking and mental gymnastics to make their text fit their agenda. If you believe that Christianity will lead to a peaceful, loving world, you'd have to ignore quite a bit of the Old Testament.
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