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The Great Religious Debate of 2017
Topic Started: Jul 28 2017, 01:49 PM (13,392 Views)
Strawberry
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Gog
Aug 16 2017, 04:06 AM
Snow
Aug 16 2017, 03:49 AM
Gog
Aug 15 2017, 01:04 AM
I believe in God, because why not? At the end of the day I accept there's no real proof for his existence. I accept that it's just a blind leap of faith. But, the alternative, the belief in nothing is so much worse.
Have you ever questioned why you think that it would be worse? You should realize it doesn't make sense to say that. Some people believe in God because it is what they are used to and they never thought of letting go of the belief. Just the idea to just stop believing in God wouldn't make sense to them, and in my opinion that's fine if you are happy with that. However, there are some people who want to question the things they are told to believe and its not good enough to just accept something if there is no evidence of it. In my opinion it feels more depressing to depend so greatly on something that may not even exist.
Regularly have I questioned my belief, my faith. Heck, I view Hell as hypocritical to what God is at the end of the day, it's why I stated that at the end of the day there's no hard proof to his existence, or nonexistence. There's a reason, which I have already stated in another post on why I don't bother to not believe in God, and Heaven, and Jesus Christ. Because, what Christianity offers, an after life is infinitely more appealing than what the belief known as Atheism offers, after I close my eyes for the last time, nothing.

There's nothing more to it than that.
It's only more appealing to believe in an after life when you see it through theism lenses. But even then it's not all that appealing imo since everybody is a sinner and the after life is a double package that comes with hell included, so... no thank you. :errm:

Of course that the idea that death doesn't really mean absolute death is captivating, but also illogical on all levels. Atheists don't care about it because they believe that once they die, it's done. They won't get to feel disappointed that there's no after life because dead people simply can't "feel" or "think" anything -- kinda the whole point about being dead.

But I ultimately respect your viewpoint. And I personally know atheists who are not religious but spiritual and believe that your energy lives on even after you die, so it's a discussion that is often expanded beyond religion.

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* Yu Narukami
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Gog, wouldn't that say that you believe in Religion, and a God, due to fear of non-existence, rather than anything the Religion itself provides (other than the idea of an afterlife)?
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Yu Narukami
Aug 16 2017, 01:30 PM
Gog, wouldn't that say that you believe in Religion, and a God, due to fear of non-existence, rather than anything the Religion itself provides (other than the idea of an afterlife)?
No. Christianity on a whole has a rich history that I enjoy being a part of, I enjoy the moral code that we go ahead and live by, and I enjoy the story ideas that it provides me. I wouldn’t be a part of this religion if it was terrible, and offered me nothing beyond a place to go after my eyes shut for the last time.
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Gog
Aug 16 2017, 10:41 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 16 2017, 01:30 PM
Gog, wouldn't that say that you believe in Religion, and a God, due to fear of non-existence, rather than anything the Religion itself provides (other than the idea of an afterlife)?
No. Christianity on a whole has a rich history that I enjoy being a part of, I enjoy the moral code that we go ahead and live by, and I enjoy the story ideas that it provides me. I wouldn’t be a part of this religion if it was terrible, and offered me nothing beyond a place to go after my eyes shut for the last time.
I can agree and understand this side to Christianity when it comes to morals and following Jesus' example. i think that's definitely good for a person to achieve happiness and find oneself. However, what separates me from Christianity is some of the literal beliefs from the Bible, such as Jesus actually rising from the dead and how it has to be taken as a historical event. Especially since there really isn't any evidence that he even existed.

I don't think Christianity is terrible either, but there are many people who are brainwashed and indoctrinated into it at a very young age. And if they are taught to feel guilty when questioning their religion and are scared to leave it for reasons such as fear of hell or disappointing their Christian family members then it doesn't really become a good thing anymore. Sometimes this can make people become judgmental towards others who aren't like them as well as having other issues growing up.
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Snow
Aug 18 2017, 12:15 AM
Gog
Aug 16 2017, 10:41 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 16 2017, 01:30 PM
Gog, wouldn't that say that you believe in Religion, and a God, due to fear of non-existence, rather than anything the Religion itself provides (other than the idea of an afterlife)?
No. Christianity on a whole has a rich history that I enjoy being a part of, I enjoy the moral code that we go ahead and live by, and I enjoy the story ideas that it provides me. I wouldn’t be a part of this religion if it was terrible, and offered me nothing beyond a place to go after my eyes shut for the last time.
I can agree and understand this side to Christianity when it comes to morals and following Jesus' example. i think that's definitely good for a person to achieve happiness and find oneself. However, what separates me from Christianity is some of the literal beliefs from the Bible, such as Jesus actually rising from the dead and how it has to be taken as a historical event. Especially since there really isn't any evidence that he even existed.

I don't think Christianity is terrible either, but there are many people who are brainwashed and indoctrinated into it at a very young age. And if they are taught to feel guilty when questioning their religion and are scared to leave it for reasons such as fear of hell or disappointing their Christian family members then it doesn't really become a good thing anymore. Sometimes this can make people become judgmental towards others who aren't like them as well as having other issues growing up.


There's a message from that age, it mentions the king of Jews. It might not be much, but that is some evidence that Jesus existed outside of the bible.

And, I do need to say but that's also a thing with Atheism as well. Young children are brainwashed, and indoctrinated at a very young age into believing it. And essentially every major religion or idea on a whole. Every Religion, belief, ideology, and idea happens that way. So, would it all be indoctrination then? I am over exaggerating your point, but it is something that always annoys me.
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Gog
Aug 18 2017, 12:29 AM
Snow
Aug 18 2017, 12:15 AM
Gog
Aug 16 2017, 10:41 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 16 2017, 01:30 PM
Gog, wouldn't that say that you believe in Religion, and a God, due to fear of non-existence, rather than anything the Religion itself provides (other than the idea of an afterlife)?
No. Christianity on a whole has a rich history that I enjoy being a part of, I enjoy the moral code that we go ahead and live by, and I enjoy the story ideas that it provides me. I wouldn’t be a part of this religion if it was terrible, and offered me nothing beyond a place to go after my eyes shut for the last time.
I can agree and understand this side to Christianity when it comes to morals and following Jesus' example. i think that's definitely good for a person to achieve happiness and find oneself. However, what separates me from Christianity is some of the literal beliefs from the Bible, such as Jesus actually rising from the dead and how it has to be taken as a historical event. Especially since there really isn't any evidence that he even existed.

I don't think Christianity is terrible either, but there are many people who are brainwashed and indoctrinated into it at a very young age. And if they are taught to feel guilty when questioning their religion and are scared to leave it for reasons such as fear of hell or disappointing their Christian family members then it doesn't really become a good thing anymore. Sometimes this can make people become judgmental towards others who aren't like them as well as having other issues growing up.


There's a message from that age, it mentions the king of Jews. It might not be much, but that is some evidence that Jesus existed outside of the bible.

And, I do need to say but that's also a thing with Atheism as well. Young children are brainwashed, and indoctrinated at a very young age into believing it. And essentially every major religion or idea on a whole. Every Religion, belief, ideology, and idea happens that way. So, would it all be indoctrination then? I am over exaggerating your point, but it is something that always annoys me.
I's interesting you stay that since I typically see atheism as a rebellion against Christianly and not something someone is brainwashed into. (in my opinion) even though I know obviously not all atheists are like that. But still a lot of atheists who call themselves atheists seem to have grown up in a christian family or was exposed to it in a negative way and that was why they turned against it. But I don't think atheism is a religion, so I find it hard to think people are brainwashed into lacking a faith in God or gods, since that's all that atheism is. Religions are organized institutions that can actually be used to control the way people should think, such as using the bible or certain rules to follow. So I don't see how people can be indoctrinated in atheism since there is nothing about atheism that anyone could feel forced into believing (or lack of believing) There's no punishment or reward for being an atheist, but there are punishments and rewards for Christians.
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Snow
Aug 22 2017, 04:04 AM
Gog
Aug 18 2017, 12:29 AM
Snow
Aug 18 2017, 12:15 AM
Gog
Aug 16 2017, 10:41 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 16 2017, 01:30 PM
Gog, wouldn't that say that you believe in Religion, and a God, due to fear of non-existence, rather than anything the Religion itself provides (other than the idea of an afterlife)?
No. Christianity on a whole has a rich history that I enjoy being a part of, I enjoy the moral code that we go ahead and live by, and I enjoy the story ideas that it provides me. I wouldn’t be a part of this religion if it was terrible, and offered me nothing beyond a place to go after my eyes shut for the last time.
I can agree and understand this side to Christianity when it comes to morals and following Jesus' example. i think that's definitely good for a person to achieve happiness and find oneself. However, what separates me from Christianity is some of the literal beliefs from the Bible, such as Jesus actually rising from the dead and how it has to be taken as a historical event. Especially since there really isn't any evidence that he even existed.

I don't think Christianity is terrible either, but there are many people who are brainwashed and indoctrinated into it at a very young age. And if they are taught to feel guilty when questioning their religion and are scared to leave it for reasons such as fear of hell or disappointing their Christian family members then it doesn't really become a good thing anymore. Sometimes this can make people become judgmental towards others who aren't like them as well as having other issues growing up.


There's a message from that age, it mentions the king of Jews. It might not be much, but that is some evidence that Jesus existed outside of the bible.

And, I do need to say but that's also a thing with Atheism as well. Young children are brainwashed, and indoctrinated at a very young age into believing it. And essentially every major religion or idea on a whole. Every Religion, belief, ideology, and idea happens that way. So, would it all be indoctrination then? I am over exaggerating your point, but it is something that always annoys me.
I's interesting you stay that since I typically see atheism as a rebellion against Christianly and not something someone is brainwashed into. (in my opinion) even though I know obviously not all atheists are like that. But still a lot of atheists who call themselves atheists seem to have grown up in a christian family or was exposed to it in a negative way and that was why they turned against it. But I don't think atheism is a religion, so I find it hard to think people are brainwashed into lacking a faith in God or gods, since that's all that atheism is. Religions are organized institutions that can actually be used to control the way people should think, such as using the bible or certain rules to follow. So I don't see how people can be indoctrinated in atheism since there is nothing about atheism that anyone could feel forced into believing (or lack of believing) There's no punishment or reward for being an atheist, but there are punishments and rewards for Christians.
Atheism is the belief in no God. It's a religion. Perhaps the most unique in existence... It's certainly no organized religion, but it's a religion no less. Atheism has been around for a long time, my cousins are atheists because their parents where atheists and they were 'brainwashed', and 'indoctrinated' into believing atheism. Because their parents believed in Atheism. Also, stop being so hypocritical, indoctrination, and brain washing are something not just religious in nature.

Brainwash:

pressurize (someone) into adopting radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible means.
"people are brainwashed into believing family life is the best"


indoctrination:

the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

It's not just religious in nature. And there are punishment and rewards for being an atheist too. If you're an atheist you wont be treated as an outcast in atheist centric groups, some people will treat you better because of it, others will treat you worse. Etc. It's the same with Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc.
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No, it's the lack of a belief in God. You're making the assumption that Atheists actively believe that there is no God, but that's not the case. Most Atheists are open to the idea of a God existing, they just lack a belief due to a lack of any kind of evidence. There are some Atheists who're militantly against Religion and do say that there is no God for definite, but other labels would be more appropriate for those individuals.
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Atheism is not a religion. I have said several times throughout this thread that atheism is not the belief that there is no god; it is simply the rejection of claims put forward by religion. I wouldn't even call it a philosophy. It's simply a mode of thinking.

I don't think that there is a god, but I am open to the possibility should the evidence present itself. It's not as if I'm out there holding signs that say "There is No God" and brain-washing people on the streets. You can't be brain-washed into atheism because it has nothing to do with a church, religious texts, or believing in anything. You don't have to act a certain way or believe certain things to be an atheist. Calling it a religion is illogical and dishonest.
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Daemon Keido
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I would question your stance that you can't be brainwashed into becoming an atheist. Atheism, like religious belief, is an opinion held by a person who uses evidence they perceive as true to uphold their opinion.

Every idea can be forced into another's mind. Atheism is not exempt from people misusing its intentions for their own ends. And in that way, it resembles religion incredibly closely.
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Daemon Keido
Aug 22 2017, 09:56 PM
I would question your stance that you can't be brainwashed into becoming an atheist. Atheism, like religious belief, is an opinion held by a person who uses evidence they perceive as true to uphold their opinion.

Every idea can be forced into another's mind. Atheism is not exempt from people misusing its intentions for their own ends. And in that way, it resembles religion incredibly closely.
Atheism can't really be the subject of brainwashing though, because it's an inherently 'neutral' position. Brainwashing usually concerns strong, concrete opinions. ''God does exist'', or ''God doesn't exist''. You can't brainwash someone into thinking ''there's no evidence for the existence of a God so you should lack a belief in it, but be open to evidence that suggests otherwise''. It's too liberal a statement and position.
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Yu Narukami
Aug 22 2017, 10:43 PM
Daemon Keido
Aug 22 2017, 09:56 PM
I would question your stance that you can't be brainwashed into becoming an atheist. Atheism, like religious belief, is an opinion held by a person who uses evidence they perceive as true to uphold their opinion.

Every idea can be forced into another's mind. Atheism is not exempt from people misusing its intentions for their own ends. And in that way, it resembles religion incredibly closely.
Atheism can't really be the subject of brainwashing though, because it's an inherently 'neutral' position. Brainwashing usually concerns strong, concrete opinions. ''God does exist'', or ''God doesn't exist''. You can't brainwash someone into thinking ''there's no evidence for the existence of a God so you should lack a belief in it, but be open to evidence that suggests otherwise''. It's too liberal a statement and position.
What? Any idea as Keido said can be forced into someone Else's mind. Even your incredibly specific definition of what an atheist is (by the way that'd technically be an agnostic atheist, Not an atheist.). Can still be forced onto someone Else's mind.
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Yu Narukami
Aug 22 2017, 10:43 PM
Daemon Keido
Aug 22 2017, 09:56 PM
I would question your stance that you can't be brainwashed into becoming an atheist. Atheism, like religious belief, is an opinion held by a person who uses evidence they perceive as true to uphold their opinion.

Every idea can be forced into another's mind. Atheism is not exempt from people misusing its intentions for their own ends. And in that way, it resembles religion incredibly closely.
Atheism can't really be the subject of brainwashing though, because it's an inherently 'neutral' position. Brainwashing usually concerns strong, concrete opinions. ''God does exist'', or ''God doesn't exist''. You can't brainwash someone into thinking ''there's no evidence for the existence of a God so you should lack a belief in it, but be open to evidence that suggests otherwise''. It's too liberal a statement and position.
If we take just the concept of atheism without human interaction, you would be correct. But so rarely do we live in a vacuum where no ulterior motives are abound.

And make no mistake: what I said stands true for religion as well. Gods know there is plenty of historical evidence to prove me right.
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Izanagi!

Gog
Aug 22 2017, 10:49 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 22 2017, 10:43 PM
Daemon Keido
Aug 22 2017, 09:56 PM
I would question your stance that you can't be brainwashed into becoming an atheist. Atheism, like religious belief, is an opinion held by a person who uses evidence they perceive as true to uphold their opinion.

Every idea can be forced into another's mind. Atheism is not exempt from people misusing its intentions for their own ends. And in that way, it resembles religion incredibly closely.
Atheism can't really be the subject of brainwashing though, because it's an inherently 'neutral' position. Brainwashing usually concerns strong, concrete opinions. ''God does exist'', or ''God doesn't exist''. You can't brainwash someone into thinking ''there's no evidence for the existence of a God so you should lack a belief in it, but be open to evidence that suggests otherwise''. It's too liberal a statement and position.
What? Any idea as Keido said can be forced into someone Else's mind. Even your incredibly specific definition of what an atheist is (by the way that'd technically be an agnostic atheist, Not an atheist.). Can still be forced onto someone Else's mind.
Agnosticism is much more vague; it's the very definition of a middle ground approach between Theism and Anti-Theism. ''We don't know'' is the core message, and it isn't a position in and of itself.

Atheism is, by definition, a lack of a belief in God. It isn't a concrete statement of 'God doesn't exist', it's a position of lacking a belief while being open to evidence that proves the existence of a God.

Daemon - What do you mean?
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Daemon Keido
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What I mean is philosophical concepts (and atheism would qualify) are often used and misused to advance the intentions of others.

The Council of Nicea created the bible by determining what gospels were fit to be canon. But let us note that many gospels made were in fact NEVER implemented and were consequantly forgotten or declared heresy. Which were kept and which were not was largely decided by personal opinion and influence.

The ideas remained immutable. But the meaning behind them changed because of a certain few.
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