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The Great Religious Debate of 2017
Topic Started: Jul 28 2017, 01:49 PM (13,393 Views)
Cal
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!

Yu Narukami
Aug 15 2017, 05:52 PM
Cal
Aug 15 2017, 05:50 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 15 2017, 05:44 PM
What kind of examples? You don't have to be completely ignorant of something to lack a belief in it. Otherwise, as soon as you learn one thing, one tiny little aspect about the subject, you'd have to fall on one side or the other.

You can have the belief that you don't care or the belief you don't know. Do you not think these better describe what we are talking about than the absence of a belief?

Quote:
 
I can't think of anything off the top of my head outside of Religion, but that's where 'belief' rears its head the most. Belief, for the most part, is contained within this topic in the context we're talking about.


I would agree it is most common here, I only wondered if you had some examples outside of this.
No, I don't, because the core of both of them involves some kind of belief. Caring implies that I do believe in a God, but just don't care, and not knowing implies that there's somehow equal arguments for each and that I doubt my belief/lack of belief. I solidly lack a belief in any kind of God. I'm open to the possibility, but I just don't have any kind of belief in one.
Fair enough.


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...
Edited by Sandy Shore, Nov 7 2017, 08:23 AM.
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Cal
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!

Sandy Shore
Aug 15 2017, 05:57 PM
Cal
 
The lack of belief in anything is synonyms with ignorance in anything.
Absolutely not, and you're begging the question.

My friend—should they actually exist—could tell me they shot themselves in the head with a shotgun, and, knowing as I do that such a thing would leave a more-than recognisable wound, not believe them. I'm not ignorant to the damage a shotgun could produce, and yet I don't believe them because it's counter to all reason and evidence on the matter.

There is a difference in not believing and a lack of a belief though.



Quote:
 
They could make any number of claims, and I could not believe them for any number of reasons. No one is claiming that a lack of belief in God (atheism) stems from neutrality or indifference to the question, but you are basically asserting that if you weren't ignorant on the matter then you would believe in God, which, of course, would mean there was evidence to be found.

If you're aware of any, by all means, please present it to us.


I'm not asserting that at all. I even gave Yu Nurakami 2 different options with neither ending in that assertion:

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You can have the belief that you don't care or the belief you don't know. Do you not think these better describe what we are talking about than the absence of a belief?



These would not end up with one believing in God, but they also wouldn't end up at atheism, which is the point. Had he agreed I could be right he would have committed a fallacy with his points, but he didn't.


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Dankness Lava
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What is the difference between lack of belief and not believing then? Did you mean there's a difference between lack of belief in god and believing he doesnt exist?
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Cal
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!

Dankness Flame
Aug 15 2017, 06:08 PM
What is the difference between lack of belief and not believing then? Did you mean there's a difference between lack of belief in god and believing he doesnt exist?
A lack of a belief means there is is a neutral state between opposing sides of a belief.

Not believing is a rejection of said belief.

lol spelling edit
Edited by Cal, Aug 15 2017, 06:12 PM.


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Edited by Sandy Shore, Nov 7 2017, 08:22 AM.
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Sam
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Play nice or I'll close the damn topic :lol: This is to nobody in particular. As I said on page 3, don't get personal. Carry on.
Edited by Sam, Aug 15 2017, 06:41 PM.
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Cal
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!

Sam
Aug 15 2017, 06:39 PM
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Play nice or I'll close the damn topic :lol: This is to nobody in particular. As I said on page 3, don't get personal. Carry on.
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I think I'm about done, we are getting to the point of no return. I appreciated the constructive discussion that did occur. Thanks for that. Now I can go away for several months until people forget I exist again. lol


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Maybe when you return you'll be an atheist again. :w00t:
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Strawberry
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Well, I guess I'm late for the party D:

I just wanted to state that I'm still not entirely sure about the point Cal wanted to discuss regarding the application of the word atheism. If I got it right, you're suggesting that if an atheist says they don't believe in God that means they are rejecting a belief, and therefore need to provide evidence to back up the non existence of God? Is that what it is? I'm genuinely not sure.

But here's where the confusion seems to be coming from, atheism can be the absence of a belief in deities existing as well as the rejection of the claim that deities exist. One thing doesn't necessarily contradict the other though and what I think you're not grasping is that atheism is always a direct relation to theism's claim that God exists. This type of thing follows a sequential order, which is key in understanding the relationship between the two groups. Atheism isn't asserting that God does not exist, it is rejecting the assertion that has been originally made by theists that he does exist based on lack of evidence.

I think Sandy's example was actually very poignant as it was a simple every day situation that illustrated well the difference in claiming something and not believing a claim that has already been made. In that example, someone tells you they've been shot in the head but provide no evidence nor any physical proof of it happening. You saying you don't believe them given the lack of evidence is different than you claiming - "No, I know you haven't been shot, it is impossible". It was the lack of evidence provided by the person who made the claim they had been shot what made you not believe in them, you weren't the one claiming beforehand they had not been shot. Do you see what I mean?

I'm really not trying to sound condescending, I'm just genuinely not sure if this is what you meant when you said the word atheism wasn't well applied or if you have another issue that I haven't been able to understand yet.

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This is possibly somewhat not on topic but for something else to discuss.

Will there ever be a new major religion I wonder? Typically they seem to get squashed by the big guys.

If religion is still so prominent in 100 years I wonder if it will be different in any way.


Scientology will rule I bet, 'cause science.
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Yu Narukami
Aug 15 2017, 07:06 AM
Gog
Aug 15 2017, 01:04 AM
But, the alternative, the belief in nothing is so much worse.
Why is it so much worse? If one chooses to live their life based on their own moral and ethical code as opposed to a code enforced by Religion, why is it worse? Non-existence is scary, sure, but nobody should ever believe in any Religion or Deity just because the alternative seems bad or frightening to them.
Too be fair, Christianity is essentially a good moral code to go ahead, and live by. I have no real problems living by it at the end of the day, and I enjoy living by it. So, at the end of it's a matter of observing what Atheism says which will happen, non existence, comparing it to what Heaven has to say, an afterlife, and I infinitely prefer what Christianity has in store.

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Gog
Aug 15 2017, 01:04 AM
I believe in God, because why not? At the end of the day I accept there's no real proof for his existence. I accept that it's just a blind leap of faith. But, the alternative, the belief in nothing is so much worse.
Have you ever questioned why you think that it would be worse? You should realize it doesn't make sense to say that. Some people believe in God because it is what they are used to and they never thought of letting go of the belief. Just the idea to just stop believing in God wouldn't make sense to them, and in my opinion that's fine if you are happy with that. However, there are some people who want to question the things they are told to believe and its not good enough to just accept something if there is no evidence of it. In my opinion it feels more depressing to depend so greatly on something that may not even exist.
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Snow
Aug 16 2017, 03:49 AM
Gog
Aug 15 2017, 01:04 AM
I believe in God, because why not? At the end of the day I accept there's no real proof for his existence. I accept that it's just a blind leap of faith. But, the alternative, the belief in nothing is so much worse.
Have you ever questioned why you think that it would be worse? You should realize it doesn't make sense to say that. Some people believe in God because it is what they are used to and they never thought of letting go of the belief. Just the idea to just stop believing in God wouldn't make sense to them, and in my opinion that's fine if you are happy with that. However, there are some people who want to question the things they are told to believe and its not good enough to just accept something if there is no evidence of it. In my opinion it feels more depressing to depend so greatly on something that may not even exist.
Regularly have I questioned my belief, my faith. Heck, I view Hell as hypocritical to what God is at the end of the day, it's why I stated that at the end of the day there's no hard proof to his existence, or nonexistence. There's a reason, which I have already stated in another post on why I don't bother to not believe in God, and Heaven, and Jesus Christ. Because, what Christianity offers, an after life is infinitely more appealing than what the belief known as Atheism offers, after I close my eyes for the last time, nothing.

There's nothing more to it than that.
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Nyah
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I am not a religious person, but there is something about God and can't say much about because first of all, whether theist or atheist, there is no one who can really define what God actually is. So whenever a debate about God occurs, everyone is defending their own personal interpretation of what God is or what he isn't. This is also why no one can say if God exists or doesn't exist as a fact. There is evidence against religions being inaccurate now knowing the thing we know about the universe, but we still don't know how the universe came to be. Even the big bang doesnt make sense to me, because it seems almost impossible to just believe and accept that our universe came to be randomly because of an explosion.. the first thing i ask is what caused the explosion? because saying it came out of nowhere is just as hard to accept as saying some supernatural being created it. How can everything be created out of nothing? Also, are we really supposed to believe that there aren't other universes out there besides ours? We may find scientific explanations when it comes to our universe, but it is only limited to our universe and not whats possibly outside of it.
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