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The Great Religious Debate of 2017
Topic Started: Jul 28 2017, 01:49 PM (13,394 Views)
Dankness Lava
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Dankness Forever

Yu Narukami
Aug 15 2017, 07:06 AM
Gog
Aug 15 2017, 01:04 AM
But, the alternative, the belief in nothing is so much worse.
Why is it so much worse? If one chooses to live their life based on their own moral and ethical code as opposed to a code enforced by Religion, why is it worse? Non-existence is scary, sure, but nobody should ever believe in any Religion or Deity just because the alternative seems bad or frightening to them.
I feel Gog's attaching a stigma to 'nothing', namely hell.
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Strawberry
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Cal, I read your post and while I have zero intention of mocking your experience or minimize it (and also sincerely appreciate the fact you took the time to share it with us), there's really nothing substantial about it to go off of. I'm not saying it wasn't a substantial experience for you, just that the way you described it was extremely vague and abstract to open the door for any sort of productive discussion.
I enjoyed reading it more for how poetic it sounded than how conclusive it was as personal evidence to you of God's existence. In fact, your last analogy when you described the pure sense of awe a child experiences while watching a magic trick where a person is seen to be cut in half only to appear on stage safe and sound moments later is precisely how I think your experience translates to practical terms, just not in the way you intended. Yes, feeling like there is a deity who is omniscient may be comforting and appease the frantic quest for knowledge while replacing it with contentment and pure curiosity instead -- just like the child who doesn't know any better will believe in magic in that moment and it will likely be an amazing feeling for them -- but that doesn't go into HOW the connection really happened or how it could have made you certain that it was God -- just like at the end of the day the magic show will end and despite the child's emotions or feelings there will be empirical evidence that it wasn't real. In parallel to this point, I can accept and it is actually something we know as a fact that faith can hold a significant role in emotional healing for theists, but that can't be used as evidence nor does it conclusively show any actual interaction with God -- if anything, it can and IS much more conclusively explained by cultural and psychological phenomena.

So the question remains: how could anyone be sure that feeling content not knowing all the answers and instead reaching a state of purity and humbleness in your curiosity towards the world around you is an intervention of God? Why would that state of mind even have to be directly related to theism? Can't an atheist feel the exact same while maintaining their belief system? Where is God's intervention in all of that?

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+ Sandy Shore
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...
Edited by Sandy Shore, Nov 7 2017, 08:24 AM.
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Cal
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!

Strawberry
Aug 15 2017, 02:26 PM
Cal, I read your post and while I have zero intention of mocking your experience or minimize it (and also sincerely appreciate the fact you took the time to share it with us), there's really nothing substantial about it to go off of. I'm not saying it wasn't a substantial experience for you, just that the way you described it was extremely vague and abstract to open the door for any sort of productive discussion.
I enjoyed reading it more for how poetic it sounded than how conclusive it was as personal evidence to you of God's existence. In fact, your last analogy when you described the pure sense of awe a child experiences while watching a magic trick where a person is seen to be cut in half only to appear on stage safe and sound moments later is precisely how I think your experience translates to practical terms, just not in the way you intended. Yes, feeling like there is a deity who is omniscient may be comforting and appease the frantic quest for knowledge while replacing it with contentment and pure curiosity instead -- just like the child who doesn't know any better will believe in magic in that moment and it will likely be an amazing feeling for them -- but that doesn't go into HOW the connection really happened or how it could have made you certain that it was God -- just like at the end of the day the magic show will end and despite the child's emotions or feelings there will be empirical evidence that it wasn't real. In parallel to this point, I can accept and it is actually something we know as a fact that faith can hold a significant role in emotional healing for theists, but that can't be used as evidence nor does it conclusively show any actual interaction with God -- if anything, it can and IS much more conclusively explained by cultural and psychological phenomena.

I appreciate the response. I know only you and OFG have replied to it so I will say I don't mind people responding and disagreeing with it as you have here. It was meant to be broken down by whoever wants and questioned in an appropriate manner as you have done here.

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So the question remains: how could anyone be sure that feeling content not knowing all the answers and instead reaching a state of purity and humbleness in your curiosity towards the world around you is an intervention of God? Why would that state of mind even have to be directly related to theism? Can't an atheist feel the exact same while maintaining their belief system? Where is God's intervention in all of that?


I do think someone could attain this content through other means as you have pointed out. For your other questions you raise great points that I don't have a great response to. I do think though that merit should be given to the one having an experience over the ones who translate it after the fact. I also know that holds no true ground in a debate such as this though. My experience is only meant to justify my thoughts.

---------------------

Sandy
 
Cal, would you kindly quit prevaricating and give us this post on the issue with the application of the word 'atheism' in the conversation in relation to the actual discussion. Then could you maybe go even a step further from that into an analysis of the definition based on the interpretation pertaining to logical rules and so forth.

Some of us are very eager to read it.


New Challenger Approaching... #SSB

I was hoping to craft a longer response but I guess I'm pretty popular around here.. :blush: :blush: :blush:

The lack of belief in anything is synonyms with ignorance in anything. How can someone have a lack of a belief in God, while not being ignorant of the subject of God? By having enough information on the subject to form an opinion that God’s existence is unlikely you have shifted from a true neutral state which would be ‘no belief or lack of a belief’ to a state of doubt based on attained information thus making your absence of a belief to the level of the rejection of said belief.

The natural rebuttal to this is that atheism is not a belief system, but I think that is stretching the definition of the word itself to meet a need. Everything that makes up our reality and our nature is based upon some type or types of belief systems. I do not think this is applicable to be different.




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* Yu Narukami
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I disagree. Lacking a belief isn't synonymous with ignorance. You can have all the information, all the evidence in the world, but still lack a belief.
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Doggo Champion 2k17
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So you believe that atheism is a belief system? Sure, it can be. I believe that god does not exist: simple. How does that in any way differ from the arguments and definitions that have been put forward in this thread?

If you were to say that atheism was a religion, I would then vehemently disagree with you.
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Cal
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Yu Narukami
Aug 15 2017, 04:30 PM
I disagree. Lacking a belief isn't synonymous with ignorance. You can have all the information, all the evidence in the world, but still lack a belief.


Give me examples of this from your personal experience outside of the realm of this discussion.

Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 15 2017, 04:31 PM
So you believe that atheism is a belief system? Sure, it can be. I believe that god does not exist: simple. How does that in any way differ from the arguments and definitions that have been put forward in this thread?

If you were to say that atheism was a religion, I would then vehemently disagree with you.


I'll let you answer this one.

OFG
 
If you don't agree that atheism is a rejection of the claims put forth by theists, that it is simply a lack of belief in a deity and not the assertion that one doesn't exist, then point-blank, your definition is wrong. It could be your opinion, but it's still wrong.

Edited by Cal, Aug 15 2017, 04:55 PM.


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What is so difficult to understand about this, Cal? Believing that god doesn't exist is not the assertion that one does not in fact exist. Come on, you're smarter than these charades.

I believe that the big theory happened.

It is a fact that the earth is round.

I believe that god does not exist.

It is a fact that Hitler indirectly caused the death and suffering of countless Jews.

This is basic how-to-logic.
Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Aug 15 2017, 05:00 PM.
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Cal
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!

Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 15 2017, 04:56 PM
What is so difficult to understand about this, Cal? Believing that god doesn't exist is not the assertion that one does not in fact exist. Come on, you're smarter than these charades.
Maybe this is simply your style of debate, I'm not sure, but starting a rebuttal by attempting to make the other person seem less intelligent by phrases like, "you're smarter than this" is pretty ridiculous.

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I believe that the big theory happened.


What is the big theory? The big bang?

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It is a fact that the earth is round.

I believe that god does not exist.

It is a fact that Hitler indirectly caused the death and suffering of countless Jews.

This is basic how-to-logic.



What is how-to-logic?


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My beautiful post was deleted, so let me just say that I'm done entertaining you.
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Cal
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!

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You're incapable of having any sort of debate, Cal. Your serious posts are nonsensical word salads, you constantly accuse other people of insulting you


I've only accused one person of that though.

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and now you're being condescending and facetious, mocking other peoples' typos while producing sentences that look like they were the product of a brain aneurysm.


To be honest I've never heard of 'how-to-logic' so I didn't want to assume you were talking about the Big Bang.

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Do you actually find fault in my posts, or are you only interested in playing the victim and then attacking when backed into a corner?


I do find fault in your posts, but I do believe you're very intelligent. I don't know why it matters though.


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+ Steve
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

I would say that there's being an atheist and then there's...I dunno, an extreme atheist? Or maybe there's a name for actively trying to disprove God and such.

Most atheists seem to treat God the same way they likely treat ghosts, a basic "I don't believe they exist"


But then there's the more nutty lot that will devote their lives to calling out everything to do with ghosts as fake, determined that they can't be real.
That breed of people have an almost religious hate for things they don't want to be real, and often an almost religious hate for facts and logic :p
Flat Earthers and such I mean, ghosts are as legit as anything else.



I feel like a lot of the time when people say "Atheist" they think everyone who claims to be one sits in their moms basement all day arguing with people about how God can't be real when really most people are just...kind of indifferent.


Maybe that would be an Anti-Theist? I dunno.
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Cal
Aug 15 2017, 04:54 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 15 2017, 04:30 PM
I disagree. Lacking a belief isn't synonymous with ignorance. You can have all the information, all the evidence in the world, but still lack a belief.


Give me examples of this from your personal experience outside of the realm of this discussion.

Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 15 2017, 04:31 PM
So you believe that atheism is a belief system? Sure, it can be. I believe that god does not exist: simple. How does that in any way differ from the arguments and definitions that have been put forward in this thread?

If you were to say that atheism was a religion, I would then vehemently disagree with you.


I'll let you answer this one.

OFG
 
If you don't agree that atheism is a rejection of the claims put forth by theists, that it is simply a lack of belief in a deity and not the assertion that one doesn't exist, then point-blank, your definition is wrong. It could be your opinion, but it's still wrong.

What kind of examples? You don't have to be completely ignorant of something to lack a belief in it. Otherwise, as soon as you learn one thing, one tiny little aspect about the subject, you'd have to fall on one side or the other.

I can't think of anything off the top of my head outside of Religion, but that's where 'belief' rears its head the most. Belief, for the most part, is contained within this topic in the context we're talking about.
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Cal
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!

Yu Narukami
Aug 15 2017, 05:44 PM
What kind of examples? You don't have to be completely ignorant of something to lack a belief in it. Otherwise, as soon as you learn one thing, one tiny little aspect about the subject, you'd have to fall on one side or the other.

You can have the belief that you don't care or the belief you don't know. Do you not think these better describe what we are talking about than the absence of a belief?

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I can't think of anything off the top of my head outside of Religion, but that's where 'belief' rears its head the most. Belief, for the most part, is contained within this topic in the context we're talking about.


I would agree it is most common here, I only wondered if you had some examples outside of this.


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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Cal
Aug 15 2017, 05:50 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 15 2017, 05:44 PM
What kind of examples? You don't have to be completely ignorant of something to lack a belief in it. Otherwise, as soon as you learn one thing, one tiny little aspect about the subject, you'd have to fall on one side or the other.

You can have the belief that you don't care or the belief you don't know. Do you not think these better describe what we are talking about than the absence of a belief?

Quote:
 
I can't think of anything off the top of my head outside of Religion, but that's where 'belief' rears its head the most. Belief, for the most part, is contained within this topic in the context we're talking about.


I would agree it is most common here, I only wondered if you had some examples outside of this.
No, I don't, because the core of both of them involves some kind of belief. Caring implies that I do believe in a God, but just don't care, and not knowing implies that there's somehow equal arguments for each and that I doubt my belief/lack of belief. I solidly lack a belief in any kind of God. I'm open to the possibility, but I just don't have any kind of belief in one.
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