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The Great Religious Debate of 2017
Topic Started: Jul 28 2017, 01:49 PM (13,395 Views)
+ Saiyan Paladin
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It's incredibly difficult for me to envision there being some omnipotent being living in some euphoric realm above us, and with all of the injustices in this world I could never worship said being even if it existed.
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Strawberry
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May I also ask why atheists engaging in a debate about religion would be considered a fallacy?
What's the argument?

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+ Pointer
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...

Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 14 2017, 02:51 PM
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I think believers dont requite proofs or evidences at all. Thats why they are believers they believe in something. Why should any of them have any kind of evidence to prove something which is beyond our space and time ?

You don't need to have solid proof or evidence to believe in something, but then why would you believe it? It isn't logical to believe in something just because you were raised to believe in it despite there being no evidence to actually support said belief. If I grew up believing that dragons existed, I would be a laughing stock. While there is no evidence to disprove dragons, there is simply no evidence to suggest that they actually exist. I don't know why this is so difficult for theists to understand.

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Its like there s a believer dot and a non believer dot. The believer dot believes that I the creator exist thus i can create another dots or erease them ir tear the paper whenever i want. The other dot refuse to believe in this. How can they prove my existence ? Only i could prove it with either drawing a line or tearing the paper

I really have no idea what you're trying to say here. What is a "believer dot?" It's kind of hard to comprehend this when there are so many typos, to be honest.

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What i wanted to say. Either god exists or not. Wr can believe or not but there is no such thing as proof or evidence. Because we are just dots and god is the drawer who might exists in a different kind of reality where the rules of physics might work in other way or might not work at all

At least you admit that there is no evidence. Now all you need to do is admit that it's foolish to believe in something with no evidence.

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The possibility that he exist is very much there though if we consider that the universe is eternal thus the chance of any other odd stuff is quite high

The possibility is there, of course. The possibility is also there that dragons and unicorns exist. It's the exact same probability, in fact, considering that none of these beliefs have any evidence to substantiate them. One is simply more widely believed than the others.


Back to Cal for a minute to address something I had missed:

You brought up my structuring of this thread, and the reason I asked the theists to provide proof is because they are the ones making a claim. Their claim is that god exists. It is a firm claim. The atheist, on the other hand, simply rejects the claims given to them; they do not make a claim of their own, nor do they insist that a god's existence is impossible. Atheism simply means rejecting the god claim that theists present because there is not enough evidence to substantiate such a claim. You could take this a step further and assert that a god does in fact not exist, but that would make you a Gnostic Atheist (i.e. a "knowing atheist"), and in that case I would ask for evidence as well.
God.. i didnt think my english is that bad. Perhaps shall i write in a more sophisticated manner. I meant that if i draw two stickman on a paper. And one stickman questions that a creator ( me who drew them) exists. They just can not provide any significant evidence to prove that i exist because they live in a frickin paper . Right ?

Now the stickman is humanity the paper is the observable universe and god is me who drew all of it on paper


I hope that was kinda straightforward
Edited by Pointer, Aug 14 2017, 08:03 PM.

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Cal
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!

Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 14 2017, 05:26 PM
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I disagree with your description (and others) given on a fundamental basis (and the given definition of atheism as a hole).

Don't attempt to run me in circles pls.

But yes, I will anxiously await your analysis of why you believe mine and others' definition (or application) of atheism to be wrong here.


Strawberry
Aug 14 2017, 06:34 PM
Yeah Cal, it seems like you're purposefully being vague and going around in circles with your arguments here.

How is the application of the word atheism in relation to this debate -- which has honestly been a pretty standard debate -- at all inadequate? I haven't seen anybody on the atheist side acting as if atheism was anything other than the absence of belief that deities exist. The debate itself has been presented and structured in that template. I'll wait for your response, but I can't help but feel like we're about to hit wishy washy territory if you're allegedly delving on "definition based on the interpretation pertaining to logical rules". I mean, wut.

I'm sure many people have wrong definitions of atheism, but I don't see how that's particularly relevant for this debate tbh.

Curious to read about your experiences and why they made you sure it was God and not any scientific phenomenon. I'm well aware science isn't absolute and in fact one of its first premises is nature being uniform. It's however the jump from science not being able to explain everything to having theism fill in the gaps of the unexplained that I haven't heard anybody defend convincingly.


I assure both of you I am not trying to get you to run in circles or be too vague so my argument can appear subjective. I honestly hate participating in this type of discussion, but do feel an obligation to especially when I see others that answer honestly and humbly from both sides of the aisle.

---


My experience:

My first experience with God was when I was simply searching for answers and not necessarily spiritual answers just answers in general. I was unsatisfied with my knowledge and understanding of the world along with my past, present and my future. I had been in church part of my life and would have self-identified as a Christian (even though I was not) at some points along with an agnostic (which I was) and an atheist (which I may have been).

Through all of these self-identifications, though there was always a gap in me. That gap was a need for a truth. A truth that I did not know and a gap that is present in most people. This truth was just about gaining the true understanding of ourselves. Some call it the secrets of the universe, some call it the chemical reactions of our own thoughts, and some call it a spiritual gap. Whatever you call it, it is there. It is part of being an intelligent species. The desire to not only know but also truly understand your origin and your future.

My experience was this gap being filled. The interesting part of this though is that it was not filled with that complete understanding I yearned for. It was filled with something else, something much more valuable to me. It was filled with content, despite my ignorance.

This was not because I had given up my search for these truths though. It was because for one of the very few times in my life I took someone else advice. I attempted to learn about God. There is a fundamental difference in learning about God and surveying proposed facts of his existence so I do not want you to be confused here.

It took me a long time to get to the point where I would humbly entertain the idea of a God, but I did get there and I am thankful for that every day. It took me even longer once I was willing to entertain the thought of God to actually learn about him. I am even more thankful for that. Once I was learning about God through clear lenses I received a great blessing and one of my experiences with God. My gap was filled with content despite my thirst for knowledge. Something that I would have considered impossible up until a certain point.

The natural follow-up question to this is how do you know the content came from ‘God’ or your ‘God’ or a deity, etc?

The first reason was that it was one of the first things I ever asked of God in a complete humble nature. I asked not to see if he would respond, not to prove he would not respond, not because I thought he would respond. I asked because I wanted to know and I was willing to take what I had learned and give God a fair chance at answering a question that I could not answer from this world. He responded. I immediately understood as well. It was not my place to know all of this, but it was not my fault that I was searching for it. Instead of satisfying my curiosity, he removed the curiosity from me.

The second reason is the experiences that I would have later. To get to a point where you have true intentions and curiosity about something is such a wonderful feeling, and I hope everyone can get to that point or has been there before. I guess I’ll try to explain what I mean by that..

Imagine you are a child and you are going to see your first magic show. You see the magician cut his assistant in half and you cannot believe it. This woman just died-but then she appears on the stage and is fine. A child who has never been around magic would likely have a pure curiousness toward the situation I am describing. So pure, even, that the child would weigh the possibility of magic being real with the possibility that it was a trick. This is the state of curiosity I am talking about... Pure and humble. It is very difficult for us as people to get to this point. The same vulnerability that had us believing in Santa Clause (and God as well without true understanding) when we were young is the same curiosity that can lead us to some of the most amazing experiences we will ever have.


-----------------------------

Strawberry
 
May I also ask why atheists engaging in a debate about religion would be considered a fallacy?
What's the argument?


I don't know. I was just asking Copy his opinion based on his response earlier about it being fruitless to have the debate:

Cal
 
To satisfy my own curiously is it a fallacy for someone to identify as agnostic or atheist as you're describing below and participate in a debate about God's existence such as this?


I wasn't asserting that it was a fallacy.

------------------------------

OK, now atheism.. I made this original comment under the pretext of needing a different discussion.. I can present my argument here if need be or a new topic. Up to all of you before I completely derail the great religious debate?

Edited by Cal, Aug 14 2017, 09:06 PM.


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So how was this gap filled? You claim that god responded to your questions. What did he say? Was he speaking to you directly? You're trying to eloquently explain this experience you had, but you don't actually detail this experience; rather, you seem to simply be describing why you're content with being religious without applying any direct examples of how god intervened directly.

"I was confused about the origins of the universe, but one day I woke up and just felt content not knowing" isn't a direct experience with god.
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Cal
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Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 15 2017, 12:45 AM

"I was confused about the origins of the universe, but one day I woke up and just felt content not knowing" isn't a direct experience with god.
I'm not trying to be a douche but this isn't what I posted at all. If you would like to craft an actual response to my experience feel free. I give you the same respect..


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I'm not disrespecting you. I'm paraphrasing exactly what you wrote. You gave no concrete examples or anything to go off of. It's a nice thought, but it isn't proof of any real experience with god.

Anyway, I'd like to know what you find wrong about our application of the word atheist. I wasn't the one who asked for a detailed account of your experiences.
Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Aug 15 2017, 01:01 AM.
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+ PocketGoggu
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I believe in God, because why not? At the end of the day I accept there's no real proof for his existence. I accept that it's just a blind leap of faith. But, the alternative, the belief in nothing is so much worse.
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Cal
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!

Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 15 2017, 12:59 AM
I'm not disrespecting you.
Of course you are. You simplified an experience I gave after it was requested here to an obvious dumb-downed sentence that doesn't even equate. That is literally the internet definition of being a douche. At least admit it. It doesn't bother me personally, you just pretending that your example is somehow relent to what I said is pretty insulting (as well as inaccurate).

Also, a spiritual experience =/= concrete proof. This was the whole basis on giving an example. I didn't tell my experience to prove a point. I'm justifying my own belief and was willing to share my justification because it was asked for.


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A dumbed-down sentence. Really? That wasn't my intention, but if you considered it to be "dumbed-down" then maybe you should take a look at what you actually said and how it can be interpreted.

I didn't say that you needed proof of God's existence; I said that what you posted wasn't proof of an experience with god. You didn't tell us how god spoke to you or extrapolate on it at all. Instead you chose to speak in vague terms about a gap that was filled. What gap? What filled It? How did god fill it specifically, and how did you know that it was in fact the Christian god? You may say "read it again," but trust me, what you wrote does not actually answer any of these questions, and I have read it more than once.

There's no need to be defensive when I already stated that it was not my intention to disrespect you.
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Cal
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!

Overly Facetious Goblin
Aug 15 2017, 01:14 AM
A dumbed-down sentence. Really? That wasn't my intention, but if you considered it to be "dumbed-down" then maybe you should take a look at what you actually said and how it can be interpreted.

I can't control how you interpret something, but you can control your response to it even if you pretend you're paraphrasing.

OFG
 
What gap?


Cal
 

Whatever you call it, it is there. It is part of being an intelligent species. The desire to not only know but also truly understand your origin and your future.


For clarity this is referring to information or knowledge that is being searched for.

OFG
 
What filled It?


Cal
 

I asked because I wanted to know and I was willing to take what I had learned and give God a fair chance at answering a question that I could not answer from this world. He responded. I immediately understood as well. It was not my place to know all of this, but it was not my fault that I was searching for it. Instead of satisfying my curiosity, he removed the curiosity from me.



For clarity purposes this is referring to the fact that the gap was filled with content through understanding when I asked for it.

OFG
 
How did god fill it specifically, and how did you know that it was in fact the Christian god?


Again, through an immediate understanding. The Christian God is who I asked. One could, I guess argue it was a different deity if they like though.

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You may say "read it again," but trust me, what you wrote does not actually answer any of these questions, and I have read it more than once.


Read it again....


Quote:
 
There's no need to be defensive when I already stated that it was not my intention to disrespect you.


I don't really care if you intend to be disrespectful or not. What I care about is whether you're disrespectful or not..


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I wasn't satisfied with your response, and I'm still not. Let us move on, please.

Again, what is your issue with our application of the word atheist in this thread?
Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Aug 15 2017, 01:33 AM.
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+ Steve
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Gog
Aug 15 2017, 01:04 AM
I believe in God, because why not? At the end of the day I accept there's no real proof for his existence. I accept that it's just a blind leap of faith. But, the alternative, the belief in nothing is so much worse.
Why would you say that? What consequence is there to not believing?

Believing for the sake of believing seems almost no different to not believing imo.


I believe in science because it might give me a cyborg body and let me live forever!
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Gog
Aug 15 2017, 01:04 AM
But, the alternative, the belief in nothing is so much worse.
Why is it so much worse? If one chooses to live their life based on their own moral and ethical code as opposed to a code enforced by Religion, why is it worse? Non-existence is scary, sure, but nobody should ever believe in any Religion or Deity just because the alternative seems bad or frightening to them.
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Gog
Aug 15 2017, 01:04 AM
I believe in God, because why not?
Well, I believe in unicorns, because why not?
It's not really an argument is it? Not only that, these unicorns require praying, going to church and reading awefull books. They're a waste of time, and doing them would be me going against my better judgment. Why not believe in Allah as well? Why not believe in Vishnu?
Gog
Aug 15 2017, 01:04 AM
At the end of the day I accept there's no real proof for his existence. I accept that it's just a blind leap of faith. But, the alternative, the belief in nothing is so much worse.
Why?
What do you mean by the belief in nothing? Do you mean the lack of life after death? The lack of a creator? What exactly do you mean with the belief in nothing?
Is it the lack of an objective meaning in life? Because the opposite is WAY more depressing to me.
I don't believe in objective meaning in life, meaning itself is a concept created by humans. I believe we can all create our own subjective meaning in this world to pursue. Whether that is to do good, help less fortunate, help family, world domination, animal rights, whatever. We get to decide and pursue it ourselves. It's completely subjective. The idea that a God created me and I'm nothing more than a pawn in his gigantic world with one objective meaning, that sounds way more depressing to me. I'd much rather consider myself a wonder of nature than the effortless creation of some God.
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