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The Great Religious Debate of 2017
Topic Started: Jul 28 2017, 01:49 PM (13,049 Views)
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In light of the recent surge of religious posts and the new wave of religious people on this forum, I figured it was time for our next debate! Past threads have been shut down, so please follow the forum rules even more diligently than you normally would. (No derogatory insults, no calling other people stupid, no making things personal, etc.)

A good way to start any religious debate would simply be to ask: Religious believers, could any of you offer proof that a god exists? Or explain your position in some other way?

Atheists/agnostics/whoever else, why do you not believe?

Keep it civil.
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I'm an agnostic who leans towards there not being a God, but I genuinely don't care enough to have an actual opinion on it. Whether there's a God or not doesn't really have an impact on my life; I generally try to be a good person and would do so whether there was a reward in the afterlife or not.

Regarding why I lean towards there not being a God, there are a few reasons:

-The biggest is that there are so many different religions around (and that's just currently, not to mention the countless dead religions that nobody remembers or follows anymore). With so many different belief systems and interpretations, to me the most logical answer is that they're all wrong.

- I'm also put off by the fluidity and flexibility that religions tend to have. When things in the holy books are proved wrong, religious people tend not to accept it and in turn try to fit the words of the book into the new facts, rather than take the new facts and mould their beliefs around that.

- I don't like the 'pick and choose' mentality that a lot of religious people have regarding which aspects of it they enforce and which ones they don't.

- I can also see the reasons why religion existed in the first place e.g. as a be-all, end-all answer to the things we don't know, something to defeat death by giving us an afterlife, a means to keep the public in check without having to supervise them 24/7, among others. All that points to it being man-made and not something naturally occurring.

- I also don't like the idea that there would be a higher being that would create a world with so many horrific things inside it. That seems like a human thing to do and that wouldn't make them a higher being, it would just make them like us.
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Overly Facetious Goblin
Jul 28 2017, 01:49 PM
In light of the recent surge of religious posts and the new wave of religious people on this forum, I figured it was time for our next debate! Past threads have been shut down, so please follow the forum rules even more diligently than you normally would. (No derogatory insults, no calling other people stupid, no making things personal, etc.)

A good way to start any religious debate would simply be to ask: Religious believers, could any of you offer proof that a god exists? Or explain your position in some other way?

Atheists/agnostics/whoever else, why do you not believe?

Keep it civil.
Again


What you ask is impossible.


Its the same canl you prove that the big bang was real ? Can you prove that the universe is " eternal" ?

Jesus even said to thomas i reckon when thomas didnt believe that jesus resurrected. So that jesus had to show him his hands



24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


What i wanted to say although i am not a religion fan i dont flat out reject gods existance.... and what you have asked for ... proof and proving whether god exist or not is beyond us. For those who believe god exists for those who not. It doesnt matter


Edited by Pointer, Jul 28 2017, 06:57 PM.

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Redough

I just want to ask some non-Christian believers a question. What's your opinion on Jesus? Obviously more than the resurrection. Do you believe he was a real person, what's your opinion on the four Gospels and the information they each contain? That kind of stuff.
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I believe Jesus was one person or many who were just ahead of their time, capable of magic tricks that nobody would understand.

And then the various stories all get put together, some get made up and it all builds in to this huge mythos about the son of God.

It's a bit absurd that one man would be so well documented over so many years that long ago, well documented and without error.



As for my beliefs, I'm open to the possibility of there being a God but I refuse to respect it without knowing what it's capable of and what it done.
If it created all the horrible diseases and other terrifying things in the world then it's a sadist at best.

If all those things happened after it created stuff then it's a very limited God I have no reason to worship, clearly not an all powerful wonderful being.

And if it does exist I don't believe it cares about us at all. Religion is generally just a good way to delude ourselves in to believing we're loved unconditionally but this is not demonstrated in any way during life, so I'm not going to waste my time on faith. A God that would create me and expect me to worship it all the time is vanity incarnate and regardless of how powerful it may be I don't respect that.
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Greenough
Jul 28 2017, 07:06 PM
I just want to ask some non-Christian believers a question. What's your opinion on Jesus? Obviously more than the resurrection. Do you believe he was a real person, what's your opinion on the four Gospels and the information they each contain? That kind of stuff.
My personal opinion is that Jesus probably existed, either as a single historical figure whose story was muddled after the fact, or as a culmination of different figures that existed and were later combined into one person. The four Gospels were written well after Jesus' death, their authors are unknown, and they contradict each other, so I don't have the highest opinion of them, but it's interesting to look into their history.

If you're actually interested in learning more about the history of Jesus and the Gospels, I would highly recommend checking out Bart Ehrman's work. He's written a few books, but he also has a series of lectures that you can find on YouTube. Unlike many atheists, he's a religious scholar and doesn't ever insert any personal opinion's or flat-out dismissals of religion into his lectures. He approaches each subject factually. He's also far more knowledgeable on these subjects than any of us.
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Assuming you've read the four Gospels or at least one (this question isn't specifically directed at anyone). What feeling do you get while reading it? If that makes sense.
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I'm Agnostic Atheist, I believe that there is no substantial proof to any of the religious deities that exist in society today but I also understand that there are things that society and science can't explain completely and thus there's a little space left for possibilities. Don't be mistaken, this isn't where God or anyone fits in. It's merely a place of insubstantial logic that has yet to be properly explained.

When someone asks "can you prove the Big Bang was real?" We can't bring you a physical Big Bang. What we can do though is bring up all the very real, testable data and information, drawn out fro Hubble's experimentation, from the studies of checking light and distance from traveling stars and the mapping of the visible Universe. Nobody in the scientific community got up one day and said...

"Hey, what if the Universe just blew up? I got no proof but you just got to believe me. Have faith."

There is no problem in being religious because of the feeling it gives you. Perhaps someone is religious because it gives them a good feeling as a person. Perhaps they attend church because it's fun to be together with people of similar ideology. Kind of like how someone might eat lunch with friends or co-workers. There's no trouble in following a faith because you legitimately believe the teachings of religion that you can use in society. Perhaps its the opposite direction, perhaps this belief doesn't come from joy but fear.

How many times has religion opted to persecute others? How often do the stories of an eternal hell resonate in the ears of people who believe if they don't follow this faith they will suffer? The stories of Dante's Inferno still rings as a prominent point for people of what the end might be like. Would this fear have anything to do with it. Perhaps there is the fear of the unknown. The idea of an Afterlife feels goo and it makes it seem that there is a point in the world and that you can continue to exist even after death. The idea of never existing for eternity frightens a lot of people.

But nobody should blindly believe in faith or religion. That's what happens to people in cults and it doesn't end well for them. If you want to believe in something, have a reason for it. Maybe its for a personal reason. Maybe it is out of a fear of the unknown. Maybe you don't even necessarily believe in a deity but enjoy the spiritual connection it gives you. I hope anyone who is religious isn't just blindly following what Mother or Father or whoever told you.

If you want to believe in something, you should have a reason for it. As an example, I'm on this forum because I'm a DBZ fan. I didn't come to this forum out of blind faith. I enjoy chatting away with users and discussing different topics. It makes me feel good. Scientists might explain it as certain endorphins pumping into the brain to give me a pleasurable experience.

If someone can't give a reason for their belief, then why are you following it in the first place?
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Greenough
Jul 28 2017, 07:35 PM
Assuming you've read the four Gospels or at least one (this question isn't specifically directed at anyone). What feeling do you get while reading it? If that makes sense.
First I need to ask what your intention is with asking this question. Are you expecting us to feel something when reading a particular Gospel?
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Jul 28 2017, 07:54 PM
Greenough
Jul 28 2017, 07:35 PM
Assuming you've read the four Gospels or at least one (this question isn't specifically directed at anyone). What feeling do you get while reading it? If that makes sense.
First I need to ask what your intention is with asking this question. Are you expecting us to feel something when reading a particular Gospel?
I honestly have no idea what your answer will be. This is just my curiosity.
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I don't feel anything. I have no interest in sitting down and reading the bible to begin with, at least not nowadays.
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Yeah, regarding Jesus, I think he's either one man or just a collection of different people's stories put together as one.

As for the OP, I'm just an Atheist. I don't believe in any God, but I'm open to the possibility of one existing, and if definitive proof was found and presented that a Deity existed, I'd have no problem shifting my beliefs.
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Yeah I don't get the "Well you can't prove the Big Bang is real so God must exist" angle.

The Big Bang isn't something we've proven and it might not have happened but we don't know that...yet.

There is no yet when it comes to any religion, no answer is being worked towards. Nobody has found any slight smidgen of info that even slightly suggests any God could be real whereas we've had tons of findings that hint at a Big Bang-like event.


The big difference is like searching for water in the desert versus finding loads of pages of a book that say there's water in the desert...well you've not actually found it and you're not even in the desert looking.
Edited by Steve, Jul 28 2017, 08:42 PM.
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Steve
Jul 28 2017, 08:41 PM
Yeah I don't get the "Well you can't prove the Big Bang is real so God must exist" angle.
Why would anyone use that kind of argument? Many Christians believe in the Big Bang Theory.
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A Catholic priest came up with the Big Bang Theory. Disbelieving in the Big Bang has basically nothing to do with Catholic doctrine at least.
Edited by lazerbem, Jul 28 2017, 08:54 PM.
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