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Where do you place Kale in terms of power?
Topic Started: Jul 23 2017, 06:57 PM (18,962 Views)
+ Pyrus
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PikUpYourPantsPatrol
Jul 24 2017, 04:05 AM
Pyrus
Jul 24 2017, 03:52 AM
"Sir, you're being investigated for the attempted murder of your wife. Witnesses place you at the scene shouting 'kill!' over and over while physically battering your wife. Can you explain that?"
"Oh, that's easily explainable, officer. I didn't actually mean I was going to kill her. I was just saying that for dramatic effect. Duh. If I wanted her dead, I would've done it."

Does not compute.
Suppressed or not he skipped 3 and went straight to blue, still stood no chance. But you mean to tell me you dont think she could've killed him when he was SSJ2? What's next dude? Gonna say Kale cant kill Cabba? That SSJ Broly can't kill Base Gohan? That LSSJ Broly couldn't kill the Z-fighters? Etc. The reason nobody dies is because plot and you know it. "She didn't kill them so she can't be that strong" is a weak and desperate attempt at an argument and you know it. She also didn't kill the weak a*** crab guy and the weak pride trooper for the record too.
Actually, "because plot" is a weak and desperate argument, and you should know it. Everything happens "because plot."

>_<
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Pyrus
Jul 24 2017, 06:55 PM
PikUpYourPantsPatrol
Jul 24 2017, 04:05 AM
Pyrus
Jul 24 2017, 03:52 AM
"Sir, you're being investigated for the attempted murder of your wife. Witnesses place you at the scene shouting 'kill!' over and over while physically battering your wife. Can you explain that?"
"Oh, that's easily explainable, officer. I didn't actually mean I was going to kill her. I was just saying that for dramatic effect. Duh. If I wanted her dead, I would've done it."

Does not compute.
Suppressed or not he skipped 3 and went straight to blue, still stood no chance. But you mean to tell me you dont think she could've killed him when he was SSJ2? What's next dude? Gonna say Kale cant kill Cabba? That SSJ Broly can't kill Base Gohan? That LSSJ Broly couldn't kill the Z-fighters? Etc. The reason nobody dies is because plot and you know it. "She didn't kill them so she can't be that strong" is a weak and desperate attempt at an argument and you know it. She also didn't kill the weak a*** crab guy and the weak pride trooper for the record too.
Actually, "because plot" is a weak and desperate argument, and you should know it. Everything happens "because plot."

>_<
So you acknowledge that she didn't kill them because of plot but then say she's weak cause she didn't kill them. You're contradicting yourself. And you ignored my examples.
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StrenuousSpider
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Gohan hurt goku more then kale did. Anyway just look at the size difference between the kamea wave he shot at tappo compared to the one shot at kale. I seriously doubt such a small kamea wave has much of a punch. And you also can not ignore what happened when they gathered the members. And if you can then i can simply ignore kales fight with goku entirely. You can not ignore the fact she was not holding back, barley hurt ssj2 goku, and how well ssj cabba and ssj2 caulifa did against her as well.
Now i dont understand whats the problem with him skipping 3. He has not mastered 3 like hes done ssj and ssj2 nor has he mastered blue in its stamina issue as well. But ssj3 still has a bigger stamina issue then blue so why use ssj3 when you can use its level of power with a less stressful form.
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StrenuousSpider
Jul 24 2017, 08:30 PM
Gohan hurt goku more then kale did. Anyway just look at the size difference between the kamea wave he shot at tappo compared to the one shot at kale. I seriously doubt such a small kamea wave has much of a punch. And you also can not ignore what happened when they gathered the members. And if you can then i can simply ignore kales fight with goku entirely. You can not ignore the fact she was not holding back, barley hurt ssj2 goku, and how well ssj cabba and ssj2 caulifa did against her as well.
Now i dont understand whats the problem with him skipping 3. He has not mastered 3 like hes done ssj and ssj2 nor has he mastered blue in its stamina issue as well. But ssj3 still has a bigger stamina issue then blue so why use ssj3 when you can use its level of power with a less stressful form.
So basically what you're saying is SSJ Cabba>>>SSJ2 Goku? Goku couldn't hurt Kale at all, so the damage thing is just a stupid argument. He didn't have scratches but still it took him awhile to get up. Also you're arguing animation with the KHH size thing. Going by your logic Perfect Cell defeats all cause his KHH eclipsed the sky.
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PikUpYourPantsPatrol
Jul 24 2017, 07:12 PM
Pyrus
Jul 24 2017, 06:55 PM
PikUpYourPantsPatrol
Jul 24 2017, 04:05 AM
Pyrus
Jul 24 2017, 03:52 AM
"Sir, you're being investigated for the attempted murder of your wife. Witnesses place you at the scene shouting 'kill!' over and over while physically battering your wife. Can you explain that?"
"Oh, that's easily explainable, officer. I didn't actually mean I was going to kill her. I was just saying that for dramatic effect. Duh. If I wanted her dead, I would've done it."

Does not compute.
Suppressed or not he skipped 3 and went straight to blue, still stood no chance. But you mean to tell me you dont think she could've killed him when he was SSJ2? What's next dude? Gonna say Kale cant kill Cabba? That SSJ Broly can't kill Base Gohan? That LSSJ Broly couldn't kill the Z-fighters? Etc. The reason nobody dies is because plot and you know it. "She didn't kill them so she can't be that strong" is a weak and desperate attempt at an argument and you know it. She also didn't kill the weak a*** crab guy and the weak pride trooper for the record too.
Actually, "because plot" is a weak and desperate argument, and you should know it. Everything happens "because plot."

>_<
So you acknowledge that she didn't kill them because of plot but then say she's weak cause she didn't kill them. You're contradicting yourself. And you ignored my examples.
Please show me where I acknowledged she didn't kill them because of plot. I don't recall typing those words.

I ignored your fight examples because they don't hold up; Kale wasn't toying with anybody. The only part of what you said that might have ground is Vuon not being killed by her punch, but we don't know if someone is even able to be killed in the first place, and I don't think we see Vuon again in that episode, unless I'm mistaken.

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. Just don't go around the forum acting like you're on a higher plane of existence for thinking one way about something.
Edited by Pyrus, Jul 24 2017, 09:10 PM.
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StrenuousSpider
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PikUpYourPantsPatrol
Jul 24 2017, 08:47 PM
StrenuousSpider
Jul 24 2017, 08:30 PM
Gohan hurt goku more then kale did. Anyway just look at the size difference between the kamea wave he shot at tappo compared to the one shot at kale. I seriously doubt such a small kamea wave has much of a punch. And you also can not ignore what happened when they gathered the members. And if you can then i can simply ignore kales fight with goku entirely. You can not ignore the fact she was not holding back, barley hurt ssj2 goku, and how well ssj cabba and ssj2 caulifa did against her as well.
Now i dont understand whats the problem with him skipping 3. He has not mastered 3 like hes done ssj and ssj2 nor has he mastered blue in its stamina issue as well. But ssj3 still has a bigger stamina issue then blue so why use ssj3 when you can use its level of power with a less stressful form.
So basically what you're saying is SSJ Cabba>>>SSJ2 Goku? Goku couldn't hurt Kale at all, so the damage thing is just a stupid argument. He didn't have scratches but still it took him awhile to get up. Also you're arguing animation with the KHH size thing. Going by your logic Perfect Cell defeats all cause his KHH eclipsed the sky.
Difference in power. The same two gokus shot different levels of kamea waves which are indicated by size. Cell is a ant compared to goku. If this was back then and cell shot one half the size of his smallest one id same the same thing. As the cabba thing are you serious when did i ever say cabba > goku. I said they did well key word they and well. They held her off for a little while. But again she was not as aggressive there.
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Pyrus
Jul 24 2017, 09:04 PM
PikUpYourPantsPatrol
Jul 24 2017, 07:12 PM
Pyrus
Jul 24 2017, 06:55 PM
PikUpYourPantsPatrol
Jul 24 2017, 04:05 AM
Pyrus
Jul 24 2017, 03:52 AM
"Sir, you're being investigated for the attempted murder of your wife. Witnesses place you at the scene shouting 'kill!' over and over while physically battering your wife. Can you explain that?"
"Oh, that's easily explainable, officer. I didn't actually mean I was going to kill her. I was just saying that for dramatic effect. Duh. If I wanted her dead, I would've done it."

Does not compute.
Suppressed or not he skipped 3 and went straight to blue, still stood no chance. But you mean to tell me you dont think she could've killed him when he was SSJ2? What's next dude? Gonna say Kale cant kill Cabba? That SSJ Broly can't kill Base Gohan? That LSSJ Broly couldn't kill the Z-fighters? Etc. The reason nobody dies is because plot and you know it. "She didn't kill them so she can't be that strong" is a weak and desperate attempt at an argument and you know it. She also didn't kill the weak a*** crab guy and the weak pride trooper for the record too.
Actually, "because plot" is a weak and desperate argument, and you should know it. Everything happens "because plot."

>_<
So you acknowledge that she didn't kill them because of plot but then say she's weak cause she didn't kill them. You're contradicting yourself. And you ignored my examples.
Please show me where I acknowledged she didn't kill them because of plot. I don't recall typing those words.

I ignored your fight examples because they don't hold up; Kale wasn't toying with anybody. The only part of what you said that might have ground is Vuon not being killed by her punch, but we don't know if someone is even able to be killed in the first place, and I don't think we see Vuon again in that episode, unless I'm mistaken.

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. Just don't go around the forum acting like you're on a higher plane of existence for thinking one way about something.
Broly wasn't either and "Everything happens because of plot" SSJ1 Cauliflia bodied the crab guy but Kale 's attack didn't kill him. Give me a f*cking break dude. SSJ1 Cabba hurt Kale whereas FP SSJ2 Goku and SSB suppressed or not couldn't do jack sh*t to her. So if you wanna go by feats SSJ1 Cabba>>>SSB Goku>>>>SS2 Goku. Just take your L :) Differing opinions don't piss me off. Your logical inconsistencies and mental gymnastics that exist due to your inherent bias however do.
Edited by PikUpYourPantsPatrol, Jul 24 2017, 09:21 PM.
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I'm not reading the entire thread so idk if this was talked about yet but how strong do you guys think base kale is? Caulifla keeps calling her her prodigee so I'm sure she's been trained. Idk why the hell she's so scared of everything then

Do you think she's actually strong?

As for lssj kale I idk if I have her on ssjb goku's level even if that's what it looked like at first glance
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StrenuousSpider
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Ssj3vegito96
Jul 24 2017, 10:20 PM
I'm not reading the entire thread so idk if this was talked about yet but how strong do you guys think base kale is? Caulifla keeps calling her her prodigee so I'm sure she's been trained. Idk why the hell she's so scared of everything then

Do you think she's actually strong?

As for lssj kale I idk if I have her on ssjb goku's level even if that's what it looked like at first glance
Base kale cant be that strong unless like you mentioned she just is so scared she cant use her full power with the exception of berserker mode. Caulifa had to of seen something in her to train her.
Edited by StrenuousSpider, Jul 24 2017, 10:30 PM.
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superperfectnerd
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Ssj2 Goku = 100 000 000 000

Ssj3 Goku = 400 000 000 000

Beserker Kale = 550 000 000 000

Ssjb Goku = 120 000 000 000 000

;)

The truth is, we wont know until we see more of Kale and Goku or Kale fighting somebody else and see how she measures up, if she can compete with Gohan for example then she's formidable.

Until then I don't think Goku seemed too worried, Kale was waaaaaay stronger than all the fodder characters and was going for the kill, that's something Toppo would be concerned with and Goku seemed fine.

I have ssjb 120 000 times Goku's base and ssj2 is only 100 times so for me an enraged ssjb tier character going for the kill would have flattened Goku in ssj2.

We'll see though, I'm filled with doubt about her placement.
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Thiln
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How can you even describe Kale's positioning in the strength hierarchy? She proves to be too powerful for the likes of SSJ2 Goku, yet simultaneously none of her attacks are causing any perceivable damage. It's as though some strange dichotomy in the mechanics of the combat is taking place during that scene in the recent episode.
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I've just given her form twice the boost of ssj3 because it's got to be more significant than the normal ssj forms.
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+ Solid Snake
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Kale is strange to me, one moment she's weaker then a sumo pig guy and a boxing bug, and once she undergoes this SSJBerserk form, she's able to withstand a Super Saiyan Blue Kamehameha. 

I think here judging from her initial showings against Super Saiyan 2 Goku:

Super Saiyan Berserk Kale >>> Super Saiyan Blue Goku >-289 thousand gap-> Super Saiyan 2 Goku 

This particular fight I find battle scars and stuff don't matter, say what you guys want but after that entire ordeal, even if Goku hasn't shown he was hurt, he was knocked out of base with her omnidirectional ki blast attack and the fact she can't even really control her powers indicates that if she learns to, she'll be even more fierce to battle against. Besides, the holding back arguments only work for him into motivating his team and/or to measure their power or skills. Also, she walked through a freaking God Kamehameha and clutched his face with Goku being unable to free himself.

To me there's more evidence to suggest Kale was the second strongest at that moment too:

1) Tanked Universe 7's strongest warrior God Kamehameha, when Toppo had scratch marks and was bruised.

2) Nearly everyone was I'm shock at her power, even Toppo himself and Hit to the point he was concern she'll be able to kill certain opponents and get disqualified, despite knowing Goku has Kaioken.

3) Jiren himself, stated to be stronger then Toppo, had to take matters into his own hands to take her down, whom we've seen little action of since the start of the tournament. 
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Broly wasn't either and "Everything happens because of plot"

He was using Goku as a trampoline at one point. If that doesn't display an attitude of enjoyment, what in your book does?
Quote:
 
SSJ1 Cauliflia bodied the crab guy but Kale 's attack didn't kill him. Give me a f*cking break dude. SSJ1 Cabba hurt Kale whereas FP SSJ2 Goku and SSB suppressed or not couldn't do jack sh*t to her. So if you wanna go by feats SSJ1 Cabba>>>SSB Goku>>>>SS2 Goku.

It's doubtful that Kale was at her strongest against Cabba and Caulifla in their training session. Kale was clearly in a more heightened state of aggression during the tournament than she was against Cabba, considering Caulifla could talk her down in the latter situation but was unable to do so in the former. Hence, logic would dictate Kale during the tournament was stronger than she was against Cabba and Caulifla during their training. As you said, SSJ Cabba managed to land one hit that seemed to resonate with BSSJ Kale, whereas SSJ2 Goku's hits were all tanked. SSJ2 Caulifla was able to easily deflect a blast from an even stronger Kale (since she stated she was getting stronger) that knocked Cabba out of Super Saiyan, but during the tournament, Caulifla could do nothing to protect herself or others from Kale's rage. Unless somebody wanted to argue SSJ Cabba > SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Caulifla, then the only sensible conclusion would be that Kale was indeed stronger during her tournament showing than her prior engagement.

Thus, trying to bog this down to pure feats doesn't work, because there is context to consider.
Quote:
 
Just take your L :) Differing opinions don't piss me off. Your logical inconsistencies and mental gymnastics that exist due to your inherent bias however do.

You can't give a good reason beyond "plot" and I'm the one that needs to take the L? What's the purpose of discussion if you're going to resort to "because plot" when the discussion actually begins? You shouldn't have even made the topic to begin with because you apparently already have the answer.
Solid Snake
Jul 25 2017, 01:07 AM
Kale is strange to me, one moment she's weaker then a sumo pig guy and a boxing bug, and once she undergoes this SSJBerserk form, she's able to withstand a Super Saiyan Blue Kamehameha.

I think here judging from her initial showings against Super Saiyan 2 Goku:

Super Saiyan Berserk Kale >>> Super Saiyan Blue Goku >-289 thousand gap-> Super Saiyan 2 Goku

This particular fight I find battle scars and stuff don't matter, say what you guys want but after that entire ordeal, even if Goku hasn't shown he was hurt, he was knocked out of base with her omnidirectional ki blast attack and the fact she can't even really control her powers indicates that if she learns to, she'll be even more fierce to battle against. Besides, the holding back arguments only work for him into motivating his team and/or to measure their power or skills. Also, she walked through a freaking God Kamehameha and clutched his face with Goku being unable to free himself.

To me there's more evidence to suggest Kale was the second strongest at that moment too:

1) Tanked Universe 7's strongest warrior God Kamehameha, when Toppo had scratch marks and was bruised.

2) Nearly everyone was I'm shock at her power, even Toppo himself and Hit to the point he was concern she'll be able to kill certain opponents and get disqualified, despite knowing Goku has Kaioken.

3) Jiren himself, stated to be stronger then Toppo, had to take matters into his own hands to take her down, whom we've seen little action of since the start of the tournament.

The problem I see with making BSSJ Kale Blue tier is that it makes the boost from Blue seem incredibly minuscule. We see when someone is so far below Kale that she can damage them to the point of submission, more or less, but we didn't get that in the case of Goku.
Edited by Pyrus, Jul 25 2017, 01:32 AM.
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滅Are you frightened?

Pyrus
 
The problem I see with making BSSJ Kale Blue tier is that it makes the boost from Blue seem incredibly minuscule. We see when someone is so far below Kale that she can damage them to the point of submission, more or less, but we didn't get that in the case of Goku.


How does it make Blue's multiplier small? It could easily mean Berserker has a similar or greater amp. Base Kale is nothing much power wise, so I don't see your point to be honest.
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