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Where do you place Kale in terms of power?
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Topic Started: Jul 23 2017, 06:57 PM (18,951 Views)
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+ Solid Snake
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Aug 14 2017, 01:29 AM
Post #196
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deepthat
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
Why couldn't cell grasp gohans power prior to getting tanked? A meaningless line of leading questions that don't detract from the obvious.
You keep comparing it to Cell when it's totally different. Goku has a full grasp of her power when she transforms and starts attacking him. ''What amazin' energy!'' ''Oh, wow! So that's your full power!'' Kale then proceeds to body him and full-out tank his attacks. So why wouldn't he be able to know how strong she is?
No different to cell exchanging blows with ssj2 Gohan, still thinks he's superior, powers up to full afterwards then loses. Once again, you're grasping at straws trying to weasel out of accepting a very simple scene. Goku fires a Kamehameha and it gets tanked, therefore kale is stronger than Ssb goku. That along with her scaring Toppo and jiren being needed to take her out.
No, you're the one grasping, because you don't seem to realise that Goku's had ample time and opportunity to measure Kale's strength. He's sensed it, he's felt how hard she hits physically and Ki-wise, and he's had his attacks tanked. There's literally no other way for him to measure her strength, and by that point, he knows exactly what her full power is.
So according to you, Goku fired a Kamehameha knowing it wouldn't work just like cell punched Gohan knowing it would be tanked. That point isn't important regardless since it doesn't detract from the fact that Goku lost in blue. You're going through all these mental gymnastics trying to justify Goku suppressing to about 1/100th of his power and at the end you still proved nothing.
No, according to me, Kale's durability far surpasses her power. That's why she could tank Goku's hits with utter ease, but not actually damage him at all. I'm the one participating in mental gymnastics? That did make me chuckle a little.
You still on this wagon? Lmfao... Explain how Kale's durability surpasses her battle power, despite the following below? 1) Everyone (notable too) senses her change. 2) Goku comments on her having amazing ki. 3) Vegeta refers to her as a monster and warns Goku. 4) Withstand attacks from Super Saiyan 2 Goku. 5) Withstand the God Kamehameha from Super Saiyan Blue Goku's suppressed levels AND restrained him from getting free. 6) After powering up and losing control of her power distorts the arena, knocks around others and even Blue Goku out of base. 7) Voice alone is enough for Toppo (Goku's supposedly equal) to comment and note the pure power behind it. 8) Hit grows concern that she might kill the contestants if left unbounded (hinting she has the power to do so). 9) Jiren himself decides to take her out (if Toppo is equal to Goku and is all about preserving his universe, he should've been capable of one shotting her as you claimed Goku could've, at the expense of losing stamina).
There is no proof she knocked goku out of ssjb he just appeared in the next scene in base but he could of just powered down So lemme get this straight, Goku went from Blue to bad against an opponent he was fighting and got choked out against, just cause? What reason he has to do that?
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Aug 14 2017, 01:57 AM
Post #197
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delete, I stupid.
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 14 2017, 01:57 AM.
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+ Saiyan Paladin
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Aug 14 2017, 02:05 AM
Post #198
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I don't get how anyone can see Kale as Blue, she needs Caulifa to go from SS to SS2 to make the difference in that beam struggle vs. the Justice tools. The power difference between Caulifa's SS and SS2 should be freakin' negligible compared to someone who is Blue tier, which clearly Kale is not if she's struggling vs. a handful of Android tier opponents.
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+ Pyrus
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Aug 14 2017, 02:08 AM
Post #199
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Snake presumes it's because of her depleted stamina.
I disagree, but I'm not really going to argue this to the death until Kale is eliminated or gotten further along, at least.
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+ Saiyan Paladin
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Aug 14 2017, 02:14 AM
Post #200
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She said her stamina was back, even though at that point we were only like 6 minutes into the tournament.
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+ Solid Snake
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Aug 14 2017, 04:12 AM
Post #201
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滅Are you frightened?
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She said her stamina was back, even though at that point we were only like 6 minutes into the tournament. She lied to Caulifla is all it was. I don't know why you buy the fact she is at 100% when Goku clearly debunks it. Like Pyrus said, this doesn't need to be discussed no more, otherwise a freaking Super Saiyan 2 tier opponent is considered a monster by someone who is able to go Blue as well.
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Aug 14 2017, 08:36 AM
Post #202
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Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1 Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio? Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”- D7 Special Attack Index
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A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one's body, multiplying all one's abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one's abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-ken might destroy one's own body. When the user's battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-ken above those limits. The Kaio-ken's designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it.
Kaio-ken is never considered somebody's "full power" – it's a learned technique, not something they're able to organically access like Super Saiyan, which is built-in to a Saiyan's genes basically. "Full power" can either mean a person's overall, naturally accessible power (meaning with transformations included), or what they're currently capable of in one state of being (i.e. SSJ2 Goku stating he would use full power against Majin Vegeta, despite having access to Super Saiyan 3). I have yet to see when anybody referenced Goku's Kaio-ken status as his pinnacle. Even in the fight with Toppo, Goku specifically said he'd show what it looked like when he "passed his limit," which was using Kaio-ken. That should be common sense and I find it really dummy this guy keeps on not getting it...
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Aug 14 2017, 09:39 AM
Post #203
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Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1 Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio? Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”- D7 Special Attack Index
-
A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one's body, multiplying all one's abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one's abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-ken might destroy one's own body. When the user's battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-ken above those limits. The Kaio-ken's designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it.
Kaio-ken is never considered somebody's "full power" – it's a learned technique, not something they're able to organically access like Super Saiyan, which is built-in to a Saiyan's genes basically. "Full power" can either mean a person's overall, naturally accessible power (meaning with transformations included), or what they're currently capable of in one state of being (i.e. SSJ2 Goku stating he would use full power against Majin Vegeta, despite having access to Super Saiyan 3). I have yet to see when anybody referenced Goku's Kaio-ken status as his pinnacle. Even in the fight with Toppo, Goku specifically said he'd show what it looked like when he "passed his limit," which was using Kaio-ken.
That should be common sense and I find it really dummy this guy keeps on not getting it... You can't go over your full-power, that's what full-power is ffs. I even gave the definition. kk is the same concept of SSJ. You guys just keep moving the goalposts with this weird "natural-power" argument to downplay Kale.
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* Yu Narukami
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Aug 14 2017, 11:08 AM
Post #204
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Izanagi!
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deepthat
By seeing his blue power fail to damage her just like cell needed to see his full power fail against Gohan.
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
Why couldn't cell grasp gohans power prior to getting tanked? A meaningless line of leading questions that don't detract from the obvious.
You keep comparing it to Cell when it's totally different. Goku has a full grasp of her power when she transforms and starts attacking him. ''What amazin' energy!'' ''Oh, wow! So that's your full power!'' Kale then proceeds to body him and full-out tank his attacks. So why wouldn't he be able to know how strong she is?
No different to cell exchanging blows with ssj2 Gohan, still thinks he's superior, powers up to full afterwards then loses. Once again, you're grasping at straws trying to weasel out of accepting a very simple scene. Goku fires a Kamehameha and it gets tanked, therefore kale is stronger than Ssb goku. That along with her scaring Toppo and jiren being needed to take her out.
No, you're the one grasping, because you don't seem to realise that Goku's had ample time and opportunity to measure Kale's strength. He's sensed it, he's felt how hard she hits physically and Ki-wise, and he's had his attacks tanked. There's literally no other way for him to measure her strength, and by that point, he knows exactly what her full power is.
So according to you, Goku fired a Kamehameha knowing it wouldn't work just like cell punched Gohan knowing it would be tanked. That point isn't important regardless since it doesn't detract from the fact that Goku lost in blue. You're going through all these mental gymnastics trying to justify Goku suppressing to about 1/100th of his power and at the end you still proved nothing.
No, according to me, Kale's durability far surpasses her power. That's why she could tank Goku's hits with utter ease, but not actually damage him at all. I'm the one participating in mental gymnastics? That did make me chuckle a little.
You still on this wagon? Lmfao... Explain how Kale's durability surpasses her battle power, despite the following below? 1) Everyone (notable too) senses her change. 2) Goku comments on her having amazing ki. 3) Vegeta refers to her as a monster and warns Goku. 4) Withstand attacks from Super Saiyan 2 Goku. 5) Withstand the God Kamehameha from Super Saiyan Blue Goku's suppressed levels AND restrained him from getting free. 6) After powering up and losing control of her power distorts the arena, knocks around others and even Blue Goku out of base. 7) Voice alone is enough for Toppo (Goku's supposedly equal) to comment and note the pure power behind it. 8) Hit grows concern that she might kill the contestants if left unbounded (hinting she has the power to do so). 9) Jiren himself decides to take her out (if Toppo is equal to Goku and is all about preserving his universe, he should've been capable of one shotting her as you claimed Goku could've, at the expense of losing stamina). Any actual evidence that Jiren was the only one who could take her out? On top of that, people don't get knocked out of transformations and get up fine as though nothing happened a second later. You're treating 'knocking him out of SSB' as a big feat, without any of the actual consequences of him being knocked out of it.
If she was > SSB, why did Vegeta do nothing but warn him. If she's that strong, he's got no reason to not freak out and tell Goku to use everything he can to take her out.
Okay, how much was Blue Goku suppressed by?
SSJ2 Goku managed to break free, so are you telling me that SSJ2 > SSB?
Power behind her voice? Okay, cool, but does he actually say she's stronger than him?
Krillin, Tenshinhan, Roshi and Piccolo are at the tournament, y'know. Having the power to kill weaker participants isn't impressive in the slightest.
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Aug 14 2017, 11:44 AM
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deepthat
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
Why couldn't cell grasp gohans power prior to getting tanked? A meaningless line of leading questions that don't detract from the obvious.
You keep comparing it to Cell when it's totally different. Goku has a full grasp of her power when she transforms and starts attacking him. ''What amazin' energy!'' ''Oh, wow! So that's your full power!'' Kale then proceeds to body him and full-out tank his attacks. So why wouldn't he be able to know how strong she is?
No different to cell exchanging blows with ssj2 Gohan, still thinks he's superior, powers up to full afterwards then loses. Once again, you're grasping at straws trying to weasel out of accepting a very simple scene. Goku fires a Kamehameha and it gets tanked, therefore kale is stronger than Ssb goku. That along with her scaring Toppo and jiren being needed to take her out.
No, you're the one grasping, because you don't seem to realise that Goku's had ample time and opportunity to measure Kale's strength. He's sensed it, he's felt how hard she hits physically and Ki-wise, and he's had his attacks tanked. There's literally no other way for him to measure her strength, and by that point, he knows exactly what her full power is.
So according to you, Goku fired a Kamehameha knowing it wouldn't work just like cell punched Gohan knowing it would be tanked. That point isn't important regardless since it doesn't detract from the fact that Goku lost in blue. You're going through all these mental gymnastics trying to justify Goku suppressing to about 1/100th of his power and at the end you still proved nothing.
No, according to me, Kale's durability far surpasses her power. That's why she could tank Goku's hits with utter ease, but not actually damage him at all. I'm the one participating in mental gymnastics? That did make me chuckle a little.
You still on this wagon? Lmfao... Explain how Kale's durability surpasses her battle power, despite the following below? 1) Everyone (notable too) senses her change. 2) Goku comments on her having amazing ki. 3) Vegeta refers to her as a monster and warns Goku. 4) Withstand attacks from Super Saiyan 2 Goku. 5) Withstand the God Kamehameha from Super Saiyan Blue Goku's suppressed levels AND restrained him from getting free. 6) After powering up and losing control of her power distorts the arena, knocks around others and even Blue Goku out of base. 7) Voice alone is enough for Toppo (Goku's supposedly equal) to comment and note the pure power behind it. 8) Hit grows concern that she might kill the contestants if left unbounded (hinting she has the power to do so). 9) Jiren himself decides to take her out (if Toppo is equal to Goku and is all about preserving his universe, he should've been capable of one shotting her as you claimed Goku could've, at the expense of losing stamina).
Any actual evidence that Jiren was the only one who could take her out? On top of that, people don't get knocked out of transformations and get up fine as though nothing happened a second later. You're treating 'knocking him out of SSB' as a big feat, without any of the actual consequences of him being knocked out of it. If she was > SSB, why did Vegeta do nothing but warn him. If she's that strong, he's got no reason to not freak out and tell Goku to use everything he can to take her out. Okay, how much was Blue Goku suppressed by? SSJ2 Goku managed to break free, so are you telling me that SSJ2 > SSB? Power behind her voice? Okay, cool, but does he actually say she's stronger than him? Krillin, Tenshinhan, Roshi and Piccolo are at the tournament, y'know. Having the power to kill weaker participants isn't impressive in the slightest. People keep using the "no scratches" thing as evidence that she's not Blue tier and as evidence that she didn't knock him out of SSB. Yet Jiren knocked her out of her Berserker form and there were no scratches. Napapa and the crab guy beat her up to the point of being knocked-out and again, no scratches.
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* Yu Narukami
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Aug 14 2017, 11:57 AM
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It's not even 'no scratches'. How damaged to you think Goku has to be to be knocked out of a form? If it's not much, then it's not a good feat, and if it's a lot, why doesn't he show any kind of injury through either his appearance or his dialogue? Nobody gets knocked out of a form and walks around fine, casually saying 'yo' not even a few seconds after being knocked out of it.
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Aug 14 2017, 12:06 PM
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It's not even 'no scratches'. How damaged to you think Goku has to be to be knocked out of a form? If it's not much, then it's not a good feat, and if it's a lot, why doesn't he show any kind of injury through either his appearance or his dialogue? Nobody gets knocked out of a form and walks around fine, casually saying 'yo' not even a few seconds after being knocked out of it. Kale does. This tournament is 48 minutes, 11 minutes has passed and she's already been knocked out 3 times. I could attribute Jiren knocking her out due to her being tired if I really wanted to.
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* Yu Narukami
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Aug 14 2017, 12:12 PM
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It's not even 'no scratches'. How damaged to you think Goku has to be to be knocked out of a form? If it's not much, then it's not a good feat, and if it's a lot, why doesn't he show any kind of injury through either his appearance or his dialogue? Nobody gets knocked out of a form and walks around fine, casually saying 'yo' not even a few seconds after being knocked out of it.
Kale does. This tournament is 48 minutes, 11 minutes has passed and she's already been knocked out 3 times. I could attribute Jiren knocking her out due to her being tired if I really wanted to. That's due to Stamina, and when she was knocked out of Berserker by Jiren, did you notice that she didn't get up and walk around a few seconds later?
Every single instance of somebody being knocked out of a form in this series, they haven't been up, fine and acting as though nothing happened. Why would this one be the exception?
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Aug 14 2017, 12:21 PM
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It's not even 'no scratches'. How damaged to you think Goku has to be to be knocked out of a form? If it's not much, then it's not a good feat, and if it's a lot, why doesn't he show any kind of injury through either his appearance or his dialogue? Nobody gets knocked out of a form and walks around fine, casually saying 'yo' not even a few seconds after being knocked out of it.
Kale does. This tournament is 48 minutes, 11 minutes has passed and she's already been knocked out 3 times. I could attribute Jiren knocking her out due to her being tired if I really wanted to.
That's due to Stamina, and when she was knocked out of Berserker by Jiren, did you notice that she didn't get up and walk around a few seconds later? Every single instance of somebody being knocked out of a form in this series, they haven't been up, fine and acting as though nothing happened. Why would this one be the exception? Do you know that for sure? She could've been up again within under a minute. She got ko'ed 3 times in 11 minutes and got back up, how hurt could she be. Majin Vegeta knocked Goku out and he was out for hours. Same when Gohan fought Buu.
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* Yu Narukami
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Aug 14 2017, 12:39 PM
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Izanagi!
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It's not even 'no scratches'. How damaged to you think Goku has to be to be knocked out of a form? If it's not much, then it's not a good feat, and if it's a lot, why doesn't he show any kind of injury through either his appearance or his dialogue? Nobody gets knocked out of a form and walks around fine, casually saying 'yo' not even a few seconds after being knocked out of it.
Kale does. This tournament is 48 minutes, 11 minutes has passed and she's already been knocked out 3 times. I could attribute Jiren knocking her out due to her being tired if I really wanted to.
That's due to Stamina, and when she was knocked out of Berserker by Jiren, did you notice that she didn't get up and walk around a few seconds later? Every single instance of somebody being knocked out of a form in this series, they haven't been up, fine and acting as though nothing happened. Why would this one be the exception?
Do you know that for sure? She could've been up again within under a minute. She got ko'ed 3 times in 11 minutes and got back up, how hurt could she be. Majin Vegeta knocked Goku out and he was out for hours. Same when Gohan fought Buu. Yes, I do, because she was knocked out and Caulifla was talking about how she rested and regained some stamina. Even if she got back up in less than a minute, she was still knocked unconscious for that amount of time. Goku was thrown into some rocks and maybe got hit by a Ki blast, and he's up and fine within seconds. You don't see a difference there?
And even then, I'm talking about being knocked out of forms. Like Trunks when he got knocked out of Super Saiyan by #18 back in the Android Arc, or when SSB Vegeta got stabbed by Black and fell out of the transformation. People have only ever fell out of transformations if they've been incredibly injured or if they've been knocked out, and clearly neither of those happened to Goku.
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