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Where do you place Kale in terms of power?
Topic Started: Jul 23 2017, 06:57 PM (18,952 Views)
zombie2599
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Pyrus
Aug 13 2017, 09:30 PM
Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”


D7 Special Attack Index
 
A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one's body, multiplying all one's abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one's abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-ken might destroy one's own body. When the user's battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-ken above those limits. The Kaio-ken's designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it.

Kaio-ken is never considered somebody's "full power" – it's a learned technique, not something they're able to organically access like Super Saiyan, which is built-in to a Saiyan's genes basically. "Full power" can either mean a person's overall, naturally accessible power (meaning with transformations included), or what they're currently capable of in one state of being (i.e. SSJ2 Goku stating he would use full power against Majin Vegeta, despite having access to Super Saiyan 3).

I have yet to see when anybody referenced Goku's Kaio-ken status as his pinnacle. Even in the fight with Toppo, Goku specifically said he'd show what it looked like when he "passed his limit," which was using Kaio-ken.
i said the exact same thing and used goku and majin vegeta as an example of full power
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zombie2599
Aug 13 2017, 09:36 PM
Pyrus
Aug 13 2017, 09:30 PM
Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”


D7 Special Attack Index
 
A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one's body, multiplying all one's abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one's abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-ken might destroy one's own body. When the user's battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-ken above those limits. The Kaio-ken's designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it.

Kaio-ken is never considered somebody's "full power" – it's a learned technique, not something they're able to organically access like Super Saiyan, which is built-in to a Saiyan's genes basically. "Full power" can either mean a person's overall, naturally accessible power (meaning with transformations included), or what they're currently capable of in one state of being (i.e. SSJ2 Goku stating he would use full power against Majin Vegeta, despite having access to Super Saiyan 3).

I have yet to see when anybody referenced Goku's Kaio-ken status as his pinnacle. Even in the fight with Toppo, Goku specifically said he'd show what it looked like when he "passed his limit," which was using Kaio-ken.
i said the exact same thing and used goku and majin vegeta as an example of full power
A lot of things are ignored in this topic.

Like the entirety of episode 101, for instance.
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Aug 13 2017, 09:36 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 08:46 PM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
Okay, so how much of SSB's power was Goku using? Either he underestimated her durability, or launched a full-powered Kamehameha at her knowing that it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever (therefore just wasting energy and leaving himself open to an attack from her). Which one honestly seems more logical to you?
He wasn't restricting his forms power. He just didn't fire a full power Kamehameha. He didn't think that kale would tank it.

He went Ssb and stated that he was going to output a little more power than his current level. So he fires a Kamehameha at kale expecting it to do something and it did nothing. Nothing about Goku suppressing his Ssb to 1/1000th of its original power was ever hinted at.
Why didn't he think Kale would tank it? He can sense how powerful she is, can't he?
Why did cell think he could beat ssj2 Gohan? He could sense his power couldn't he?

Ki sensing isn't the end all be all of gauging an opponents strength. A lot of times the gap has to physically be seen.
Come on, you could tell Cell was losing it, that's why he bulked up and got his rear-end beaten. That's nothing like this current situation. Why did Goku not realise that Kale would tank his Kamehameha completely? Goku's good enough at sensing Ki to know if the gap is that big.
Cell didn't begin losing it until Gohan started beating him. He couldn't tell that Gohan was stronger until Gohan tanked him. Don't know how this is any different. All that's shown is that Goku fired a Kamehameha expecting it to do something but it did nothing. So just like Gohan and cell, this is a situation where he had to see it to believe it.
Why did Cell use the performance of his Cell Juniors against Gohan to measure his power instead of actually sensing it himself? Once he realises how strong Gohan is, he loses it.

Are you seriously telling me that Goku had to 'see Kale's power to believe it' when he was getting pummelled by her as a SSJ2?
And cell didn't realize it from ki sensing. He needed to test his power Vs gohans.

Yes Goku did, because that's what was shown. He wouldn't fire a Kamehameha at her knowing it wouldn't do anything.
Dude, he saw her power when she was beating him down, how else is he going to see it to believe it?

So, what, he either got it wrong, or she's more durable than her PL suggests?
By seeing his blue power fail to damage her just like cell needed to see his full power fail against Gohan.
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
He wasn't restricting his forms power. He just didn't fire a full power Kamehameha. He didn't think that kale would tank it.

He went Ssb and stated that he was going to output a little more power than his current level. So he fires a Kamehameha at kale expecting it to do something and it did nothing. Nothing about Goku suppressing his Ssb to 1/1000th of its original power was ever hinted at.
Why didn't he think Kale would tank it? He can sense how powerful she is, can't he?
Why did cell think he could beat ssj2 Gohan? He could sense his power couldn't he?

Ki sensing isn't the end all be all of gauging an opponents strength. A lot of times the gap has to physically be seen.
Come on, you could tell Cell was losing it, that's why he bulked up and got his rear-end beaten. That's nothing like this current situation. Why did Goku not realise that Kale would tank his Kamehameha completely? Goku's good enough at sensing Ki to know if the gap is that big.
Cell didn't begin losing it until Gohan started beating him. He couldn't tell that Gohan was stronger until Gohan tanked him. Don't know how this is any different. All that's shown is that Goku fired a Kamehameha expecting it to do something but it did nothing. So just like Gohan and cell, this is a situation where he had to see it to believe it.
Why did Cell use the performance of his Cell Juniors against Gohan to measure his power instead of actually sensing it himself? Once he realises how strong Gohan is, he loses it.

Are you seriously telling me that Goku had to 'see Kale's power to believe it' when he was getting pummelled by her as a SSJ2?
And cell didn't realize it from ki sensing. He needed to test his power Vs gohans.

Yes Goku did, because that's what was shown. He wouldn't fire a Kamehameha at her knowing it wouldn't do anything.
Dude, he saw her power when she was beating him down, how else is he going to see it to believe it?

So, what, he either got it wrong, or she's more durable than her PL suggests?
By seeing his blue power fail to damage her just like cell needed to see his full power fail against Gohan.
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
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Aug 13 2017, 09:30 PM
Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”


D7 Special Attack Index
 
A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one's body, multiplying all one's abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one's abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-ken might destroy one's own body. When the user's battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-ken above those limits. The Kaio-ken's designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it.

Kaio-ken is never considered somebody's "full power" – it's a learned technique, not something they're able to organically access like Super Saiyan, which is built-in to a Saiyan's genes basically. "Full power" can either mean a person's overall, naturally accessible power (meaning with transformations included), or what they're currently capable of in one state of being (i.e. SSJ2 Goku stating he would use full power against Majin Vegeta, despite having access to Super Saiyan 3).

I have yet to see when anybody referenced Goku's Kaio-ken status as his pinnacle. Even in the fight with Toppo, Goku specifically said he'd show what it looked like when he "passed his limit," which was using Kaio-ken.
Full-power definition https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/at%20full%20power

SSJ amplifies ki too, this "natural-power" thing is you moving the goalposts. Can his SSJ and base form be equal? No
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
Why didn't he think Kale would tank it? He can sense how powerful she is, can't he?
Why did cell think he could beat ssj2 Gohan? He could sense his power couldn't he?

Ki sensing isn't the end all be all of gauging an opponents strength. A lot of times the gap has to physically be seen.
Come on, you could tell Cell was losing it, that's why he bulked up and got his rear-end beaten. That's nothing like this current situation. Why did Goku not realise that Kale would tank his Kamehameha completely? Goku's good enough at sensing Ki to know if the gap is that big.
Cell didn't begin losing it until Gohan started beating him. He couldn't tell that Gohan was stronger until Gohan tanked him. Don't know how this is any different. All that's shown is that Goku fired a Kamehameha expecting it to do something but it did nothing. So just like Gohan and cell, this is a situation where he had to see it to believe it.
Why did Cell use the performance of his Cell Juniors against Gohan to measure his power instead of actually sensing it himself? Once he realises how strong Gohan is, he loses it.

Are you seriously telling me that Goku had to 'see Kale's power to believe it' when he was getting pummelled by her as a SSJ2?
And cell didn't realize it from ki sensing. He needed to test his power Vs gohans.

Yes Goku did, because that's what was shown. He wouldn't fire a Kamehameha at her knowing it wouldn't do anything.
Dude, he saw her power when she was beating him down, how else is he going to see it to believe it?

So, what, he either got it wrong, or she's more durable than her PL suggests?
By seeing his blue power fail to damage her just like cell needed to see his full power fail against Gohan.
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
Why couldn't cell grasp gohans power prior to getting tanked?
A meaningless line of leading questions that don't detract from the obvious.
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
Why did cell think he could beat ssj2 Gohan? He could sense his power couldn't he?

Ki sensing isn't the end all be all of gauging an opponents strength. A lot of times the gap has to physically be seen.
Come on, you could tell Cell was losing it, that's why he bulked up and got his rear-end beaten. That's nothing like this current situation. Why did Goku not realise that Kale would tank his Kamehameha completely? Goku's good enough at sensing Ki to know if the gap is that big.
Cell didn't begin losing it until Gohan started beating him. He couldn't tell that Gohan was stronger until Gohan tanked him. Don't know how this is any different. All that's shown is that Goku fired a Kamehameha expecting it to do something but it did nothing. So just like Gohan and cell, this is a situation where he had to see it to believe it.
Why did Cell use the performance of his Cell Juniors against Gohan to measure his power instead of actually sensing it himself? Once he realises how strong Gohan is, he loses it.

Are you seriously telling me that Goku had to 'see Kale's power to believe it' when he was getting pummelled by her as a SSJ2?
And cell didn't realize it from ki sensing. He needed to test his power Vs gohans.

Yes Goku did, because that's what was shown. He wouldn't fire a Kamehameha at her knowing it wouldn't do anything.
Dude, he saw her power when she was beating him down, how else is he going to see it to believe it?

So, what, he either got it wrong, or she's more durable than her PL suggests?
By seeing his blue power fail to damage her just like cell needed to see his full power fail against Gohan.
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
Why couldn't cell grasp gohans power prior to getting tanked?
A meaningless line of leading questions that don't detract from the obvious.
You keep comparing it to Cell when it's totally different. Goku has a full grasp of her power when she transforms and starts attacking him.

''What amazin' energy!''
''Oh, wow! So that's your full power!''

Kale then proceeds to body him and full-out tank his attacks.

So why wouldn't he be able to know how strong she is?
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deep
Come on, you could tell Cell was losing it, that's why he bulked up and got his rear-end beaten. That's nothing like this current situation. Why did Goku not realise that Kale would tank his Kamehameha completely? Goku's good enough at sensing Ki to know if the gap is that big.
Cell didn't begin losing it until Gohan started beating him. He couldn't tell that Gohan was stronger until Gohan tanked him. Don't know how this is any different. All that's shown is that Goku fired a Kamehameha expecting it to do something but it did nothing. So just like Gohan and cell, this is a situation where he had to see it to believe it.
Why did Cell use the performance of his Cell Juniors against Gohan to measure his power instead of actually sensing it himself? Once he realises how strong Gohan is, he loses it.

Are you seriously telling me that Goku had to 'see Kale's power to believe it' when he was getting pummelled by her as a SSJ2?
And cell didn't realize it from ki sensing. He needed to test his power Vs gohans.

Yes Goku did, because that's what was shown. He wouldn't fire a Kamehameha at her knowing it wouldn't do anything.
Dude, he saw her power when she was beating him down, how else is he going to see it to believe it?

So, what, he either got it wrong, or she's more durable than her PL suggests?
By seeing his blue power fail to damage her just like cell needed to see his full power fail against Gohan.
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
Why couldn't cell grasp gohans power prior to getting tanked?
A meaningless line of leading questions that don't detract from the obvious.
You keep comparing it to Cell when it's totally different. Goku has a full grasp of her power when she transforms and starts attacking him.

''What amazin' energy!''
''Oh, wow! So that's your full power!''

Kale then proceeds to body him and full-out tank his attacks.

So why wouldn't he be able to know how strong she is?
No different to cell exchanging blows with ssj2 Gohan, still thinks he's superior, powers up to full afterwards then loses.

Once again, you're grasping at straws trying to weasel out of accepting a very simple scene.
Goku fires a Kamehameha and it gets tanked, therefore kale is stronger than Ssb goku. That along with her scaring Toppo and jiren being needed to take her out.
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deepthat big.
Cell didn't begin losing it until Gohan started beating him. He couldn't tell that Gohan was stronger until Gohan tanked him. Don't know how this is any different. All that's shown is that Goku fired a Kamehameha expecting it to do something but it did nothing. So just like Gohan and cell, this is a situation where he had to see it to believe it.
Why did Cell use the performance of his Cell Juniors against Gohan to measure his power instead of actually sensing it himself? Once he realises how strong Gohan is, he loses it.

Are you seriously telling me that Goku had to 'see Kale's power to believe it' when he was getting pummelled by her as a SSJ2?
And cell didn't realize it from ki sensing. He needed to test his power Vs gohans.

Yes Goku did, because that's what was shown. He wouldn't fire a Kamehameha at her knowing it wouldn't do anything.
Dude, he saw her power when she was beating him down, how else is he going to see it to believe it?

So, what, he either got it wrong, or she's more durable than her PL suggests?
By seeing his blue power fail to damage her just like cell needed to see his full power fail against Gohan.
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
Why couldn't cell grasp gohans power prior to getting tanked?
A meaningless line of leading questions that don't detract from the obvious.
You keep comparing it to Cell when it's totally different. Goku has a full grasp of her power when she transforms and starts attacking him.

''What amazin' energy!''
''Oh, wow! So that's your full power!''

Kale then proceeds to body him and full-out tank his attacks.

So why wouldn't he be able to know how strong she is?
No different to cell exchanging blows with ssj2 Gohan, still thinks he's superior, powers up to full afterwards then loses.

Once again, you're grasping at straws trying to weasel out of accepting a very simple scene.
Goku fires a Kamehameha and it gets tanked, therefore kale is stronger than Ssb goku. That along with her scaring Toppo and jiren being needed to take her out.
No, you're the one grasping, because you don't seem to realise that Goku's had ample time and opportunity to measure Kale's strength. He's sensed it, he's felt how hard she hits physically and Ki-wise, and he's had his attacks tanked. There's literally no other way for him to measure her strength, and by that point, he knows exactly what her full power is.
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deepthat
Why did Cell use the performance of his Cell Juniors against Gohan to measure his power instead of actually sensing it himself? Once he realises how strong Gohan is, he loses it.

Are you seriously telling me that Goku had to 'see Kale's power to believe it' when he was getting pummelled by her as a SSJ2?
And cell didn't realize it from ki sensing. He needed to test his power Vs gohans.

Yes Goku did, because that's what was shown. He wouldn't fire a Kamehameha at her knowing it wouldn't do anything.
Dude, he saw her power when she was beating him down, how else is he going to see it to believe it?

So, what, he either got it wrong, or she's more durable than her PL suggests?
By seeing his blue power fail to damage her just like cell needed to see his full power fail against Gohan.
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
Why couldn't cell grasp gohans power prior to getting tanked?
A meaningless line of leading questions that don't detract from the obvious.
You keep comparing it to Cell when it's totally different. Goku has a full grasp of her power when she transforms and starts attacking him.

''What amazin' energy!''
''Oh, wow! So that's your full power!''

Kale then proceeds to body him and full-out tank his attacks.

So why wouldn't he be able to know how strong she is?
No different to cell exchanging blows with ssj2 Gohan, still thinks he's superior, powers up to full afterwards then loses.

Once again, you're grasping at straws trying to weasel out of accepting a very simple scene.
Goku fires a Kamehameha and it gets tanked, therefore kale is stronger than Ssb goku. That along with her scaring Toppo and jiren being needed to take her out.
No, you're the one grasping, because you don't seem to realise that Goku's had ample time and opportunity to measure Kale's strength. He's sensed it, he's felt how hard she hits physically and Ki-wise, and he's had his attacks tanked. There's literally no other way for him to measure her strength, and by that point, he knows exactly what her full power is.
So according to you, Goku fired a Kamehameha knowing it wouldn't work just like cell punched Gohan knowing it would be tanked.

That point isn't important regardless since it doesn't detract from the fact that Goku lost in blue.

You're going through all these mental gymnastics trying to justify Goku suppressing to about 1/100th of his power and at the end you still proved nothing.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Aug 13 2017, 10:56 PM.
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Aug 13 2017, 09:30 PM
Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”


D7 Special Attack Index
 
A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one's body, multiplying all one's abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one's abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-ken might destroy one's own body. When the user's battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-ken above those limits. The Kaio-ken's designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it.

Kaio-ken is never considered somebody's "full power" – it's a learned technique, not something they're able to organically access like Super Saiyan, which is built-in to a Saiyan's genes basically. "Full power" can either mean a person's overall, naturally accessible power (meaning with transformations included), or what they're currently capable of in one state of being (i.e. SSJ2 Goku stating he would use full power against Majin Vegeta, despite having access to Super Saiyan 3).

I have yet to see when anybody referenced Goku's Kaio-ken status as his pinnacle. Even in the fight with Toppo, Goku specifically said he'd show what it looked like when he "passed his limit," which was using Kaio-ken.
Full-power definition https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/at%20full%20power

SSJ amplifies ki too, this "natural-power" thing is you moving the goalposts. Can his SSJ and base form be equal? No
I'm not dismissing Kaio-ken because it successfully meets the requirement(s) of an argument and I simply don't like it – I'm dismissing it because it isn't supported by any evidence within the series itself.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight
Goku: “I don’t wanna take any damage from you and have it become Majin Boo’s energy…So I’m gonna end this quickly, at maximum power.”
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!”


Dictionary definitions are great and all, but what the series says overrides that in the case of a supposed discrepancy. That definition doesn't contradict anything either. Goku is using the fullest extent of his ability in Super Saiyan 2, like he says to Vegeta. The fact that he has access to Super Saiyan 3 doesn't negate him being at full power in a lower form, otherwise you could argue nobody is ever at full power unless they're transformed to their uppermost limit, thus making it impossible to compare anybody without an established limit. I hope that last bit makes sense.

It also doesn't change the fact that Goku stated Kaio-ken was going past his limit against Toppo.

But, listen, if you want to believe Kaio-ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue is Goku's "full power," go right ahead. I've given an example of this mentality not being the case from the original Z production as well as Super, with additional definitions for Kaio-ken in the manga and Daizenshuu. There isn't much else for me to do from here without repeating my points. At least you weren't immature about things this time.
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 13 2017, 11:18 PM.
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deepthat
And cell didn't realize it from ki sensing. He needed to test his power Vs gohans.

Yes Goku did, because that's what was shown. He wouldn't fire a Kamehameha at her knowing it wouldn't do anything.
Dude, he saw her power when she was beating him down, how else is he going to see it to believe it?

So, what, he either got it wrong, or she's more durable than her PL suggests?
By seeing his blue power fail to damage her just like cell needed to see his full power fail against Gohan.
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
Why couldn't cell grasp gohans power prior to getting tanked?
A meaningless line of leading questions that don't detract from the obvious.
You keep comparing it to Cell when it's totally different. Goku has a full grasp of her power when she transforms and starts attacking him.

''What amazin' energy!''
''Oh, wow! So that's your full power!''

Kale then proceeds to body him and full-out tank his attacks.

So why wouldn't he be able to know how strong she is?
No different to cell exchanging blows with ssj2 Gohan, still thinks he's superior, powers up to full afterwards then loses.

Once again, you're grasping at straws trying to weasel out of accepting a very simple scene.
Goku fires a Kamehameha and it gets tanked, therefore kale is stronger than Ssb goku. That along with her scaring Toppo and jiren being needed to take her out.
No, you're the one grasping, because you don't seem to realise that Goku's had ample time and opportunity to measure Kale's strength. He's sensed it, he's felt how hard she hits physically and Ki-wise, and he's had his attacks tanked. There's literally no other way for him to measure her strength, and by that point, he knows exactly what her full power is.
So according to you, Goku fired a Kamehameha knowing it wouldn't work just like cell punched Gohan knowing it would be tanked.

That point isn't important regardless since it doesn't detract from the fact that Goku lost in blue.

You're going through all these mental gymnastics trying to justify Goku suppressing to about 1/100th of his power and at the end you still proved nothing.
No, according to me, Kale's durability far surpasses her power. That's why she could tank Goku's hits with utter ease, but not actually damage him at all.

I'm the one participating in mental gymnastics? That did make me chuckle a little.
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deepthat
Dude, he saw her power when she was beating him down, how else is he going to see it to believe it?

So, what, he either got it wrong, or she's more durable than her PL suggests?
By seeing his blue power fail to damage her just like cell needed to see his full power fail against Gohan.
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
Why couldn't cell grasp gohans power prior to getting tanked?
A meaningless line of leading questions that don't detract from the obvious.
You keep comparing it to Cell when it's totally different. Goku has a full grasp of her power when she transforms and starts attacking him.

''What amazin' energy!''
''Oh, wow! So that's your full power!''

Kale then proceeds to body him and full-out tank his attacks.

So why wouldn't he be able to know how strong she is?
No different to cell exchanging blows with ssj2 Gohan, still thinks he's superior, powers up to full afterwards then loses.

Once again, you're grasping at straws trying to weasel out of accepting a very simple scene.
Goku fires a Kamehameha and it gets tanked, therefore kale is stronger than Ssb goku. That along with her scaring Toppo and jiren being needed to take her out.
No, you're the one grasping, because you don't seem to realise that Goku's had ample time and opportunity to measure Kale's strength. He's sensed it, he's felt how hard she hits physically and Ki-wise, and he's had his attacks tanked. There's literally no other way for him to measure her strength, and by that point, he knows exactly what her full power is.
So according to you, Goku fired a Kamehameha knowing it wouldn't work just like cell punched Gohan knowing it would be tanked.

That point isn't important regardless since it doesn't detract from the fact that Goku lost in blue.

You're going through all these mental gymnastics trying to justify Goku suppressing to about 1/100th of his power and at the end you still proved nothing.
No, according to me, Kale's durability far surpasses her power. That's why she could tank Goku's hits with utter ease, but not actually damage him at all.

I'm the one participating in mental gymnastics? That did make me chuckle a little.
What's shown in the episode itself is that kale was stronger than Ssb Goku since she overpowered him, scared Toppo and needed to be stopped by jiren. If that's mental gymnastics to you then I don't know what to tell you. It's the most straightforward answer shown by the show.

What you're claiming, I don't have a clue. You're the only one here saying some irrelevant nonsense like Goku should've sensed that his Kamehameha wouldn't work despite the opposite being shown as if that somehow invalidates kale walking through the Kamehameha and almost choking Goku to death.

Kale having different durability than her power isn't stated or shown anywhere. Stop reaching and follow the story like you're supposed to. Otherwise you say nonsense like that.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Aug 13 2017, 11:47 PM.
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Quoting limited to 10 levels deepthat
Dude, he saw her power when she was beating him down, how else is he going to see it to believe it?

So, what, he either got it wrong, or she's more durable than her PL suggests?
By seeing his blue power fail to damage her just like cell needed to see his full power fail against Gohan.
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
Why couldn't cell grasp gohans power prior to getting tanked?
A meaningless line of leading questions that don't detract from the obvious.
You keep comparing it to Cell when it's totally different. Goku has a full grasp of her power when she transforms and starts attacking him.

''What amazin' energy!''
''Oh, wow! So that's your full power!''

Kale then proceeds to body him and full-out tank his attacks.

So why wouldn't he be able to know how strong she is?
No different to cell exchanging blows with ssj2 Gohan, still thinks he's superior, powers up to full afterwards then loses.

Once again, you're grasping at straws trying to weasel out of accepting a very simple scene.
Goku fires a Kamehameha and it gets tanked, therefore kale is stronger than Ssb goku. That along with her scaring Toppo and jiren being needed to take her out.
No, you're the one grasping, because you don't seem to realise that Goku's had ample time and opportunity to measure Kale's strength. He's sensed it, he's felt how hard she hits physically and Ki-wise, and he's had his attacks tanked. There's literally no other way for him to measure her strength, and by that point, he knows exactly what her full power is.
So according to you, Goku fired a Kamehameha knowing it wouldn't work just like cell punched Gohan knowing it would be tanked.

That point isn't important regardless since it doesn't detract from the fact that Goku lost in blue.

You're going through all these mental gymnastics trying to justify Goku suppressing to about 1/100th of his power and at the end you still proved nothing.
No, according to me, Kale's durability far surpasses her power. That's why she could tank Goku's hits with utter ease, but not actually damage him at all.

I'm the one participating in mental gymnastics? That did make me chuckle a little.
You still on this wagon? Lmfao...

Explain how Kale's durability surpasses her battle power, despite the following below?

1) Everyone (notable too) senses her change.
2) Goku comments on her having amazing ki.
3) Vegeta refers to her as a monster and warns Goku.
4) Withstand attacks from Super Saiyan 2 Goku.
5) Withstand the God Kamehameha from Super Saiyan Blue Goku's suppressed levels AND restrained him from getting free.
6) After powering up and losing control of her power distorts the arena, knocks around others and even Blue Goku out of base.
7) Voice alone is enough for Toppo (Goku's supposedly equal) to comment and note the pure power behind it.
8) Hit grows concern that she might kill the contestants if left unbounded (hinting she has the power to do so).
9) Jiren himself decides to take her out (if Toppo is equal to Goku and is all about preserving his universe, he should've been capable of one shotting her as you claimed Goku could've, at the expense of losing stamina).


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Aug 13 2017, 09:49 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 09:36 PM

Quoting limited to 10 levels deepthat
By seeing his blue power fail to damage her just like cell needed to see his full power fail against Gohan.
Why wasn't he able to fully grasp her power when she was beating him down and raging?
Why couldn't cell grasp gohans power prior to getting tanked?
A meaningless line of leading questions that don't detract from the obvious.
You keep comparing it to Cell when it's totally different. Goku has a full grasp of her power when she transforms and starts attacking him.

''What amazin' energy!''
''Oh, wow! So that's your full power!''

Kale then proceeds to body him and full-out tank his attacks.

So why wouldn't he be able to know how strong she is?
No different to cell exchanging blows with ssj2 Gohan, still thinks he's superior, powers up to full afterwards then loses.

Once again, you're grasping at straws trying to weasel out of accepting a very simple scene.
Goku fires a Kamehameha and it gets tanked, therefore kale is stronger than Ssb goku. That along with her scaring Toppo and jiren being needed to take her out.
No, you're the one grasping, because you don't seem to realise that Goku's had ample time and opportunity to measure Kale's strength. He's sensed it, he's felt how hard she hits physically and Ki-wise, and he's had his attacks tanked. There's literally no other way for him to measure her strength, and by that point, he knows exactly what her full power is.
So according to you, Goku fired a Kamehameha knowing it wouldn't work just like cell punched Gohan knowing it would be tanked.

That point isn't important regardless since it doesn't detract from the fact that Goku lost in blue.

You're going through all these mental gymnastics trying to justify Goku suppressing to about 1/100th of his power and at the end you still proved nothing.
No, according to me, Kale's durability far surpasses her power. That's why she could tank Goku's hits with utter ease, but not actually damage him at all.

I'm the one participating in mental gymnastics? That did make me chuckle a little.
You still on this wagon? Lmfao...

Explain how Kale's durability surpasses her battle power, despite the following below?

1) Everyone (notable too) senses her change.
2) Goku comments on her having amazing ki.
3) Vegeta refers to her as a monster and warns Goku.
4) Withstand attacks from Super Saiyan 2 Goku.
5) Withstand the God Kamehameha from Super Saiyan Blue Goku's suppressed levels AND restrained him from getting free.
6) After powering up and losing control of her power distorts the arena, knocks around others and even Blue Goku out of base.
7) Voice alone is enough for Toppo (Goku's supposedly equal) to comment and note the pure power behind it.
8) Hit grows concern that she might kill the contestants if left unbounded (hinting she has the power to do so).
9) Jiren himself decides to take her out (if Toppo is equal to Goku and is all about preserving his universe, he should've been capable of one shotting her as you claimed Goku could've, at the expense of losing stamina).


There is no proof she knocked goku out of ssjb he just appeared in the next scene in base but he could of just powered down
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