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Where do you place Kale in terms of power?
Topic Started: Jul 23 2017, 06:57 PM (18,953 Views)
PikUpYourPantsPatrol
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Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:29 PM
@Gogeta Sorry, but no. Firstly, where's the statement that Goku was holding back against everyone when recruiting them? Secondly, we get a statement from Goku that he's going to use 'a little more power', and you've just proven yourself that he can control how strong he is in SSB, so all you have to do is use a bit of logic.

And sorry, 'no explanation' doesn't fly. That's not an answer to my question, that's just a cop-out because your line of reasoning doesn't work at all.

You do realize that SSJ and kaioken are both techniques right? Goku had to learn how to do them both. It's still a technique regardless of being unique to saiyans.

Idk the why, it makes no sense and does it really matter? You wanna come up with an explanation? Go right ahead. I'm only giving you these examples of Goku fighting in weaker forms first because you seem to be insinuating that Kale isn't above Blue since he didn't go kk. Is that not the point you are trying to make?
Edited by PikUpYourPantsPatrol, Aug 13 2017, 08:41 PM.
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* Yu Narukami
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SSJ is their natural power. Kaioken is a technique that amplifies the user's power beyond their current limits; they're two completely different things.

And yeah, I do want to come up with an explanation. If we all just agreed 'it doesn't make sense, I dunno why', what would we talk about? It'd just be an echo chamber talking about how strong these characters are with no proper discussion or context.

I was talking about Kaioken because it's been said that Kale is far beyond SSB Goku, and in the context of the TOP, it wouldn't make sense for him to not use it. Even if his full power does include KK, which I think it doesn't, the statement he made when transforming implies that he wasn't getting near the point where he'd have to use it.
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Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:29 PM
@Gogeta Sorry, but no. Firstly, where's the statement that Goku was holding back against everyone when recruiting them? Secondly, we get a statement from Goku that he's going to use 'a little more power', and you've just proven yourself that he can control how strong he is in SSB, so all you have to do is use a bit of logic.

And sorry, 'no explanation' doesn't fly. That's not an answer to my question, that's just a cop-out because your line of reasoning doesn't work at all.

@Pick So, I take it you didn't find any comment about Kaioken then? A person's full power is different from a technique that amplifies that power. Kaioken isn't his natural 'full power'.

And there it is. You don't want any discussion at all, do you? ''He just does''. That isn't an answer. You don't provide any kind of possible explanation for it.
No, there is no explanation, so you're using it as an excuse to insert headcanon into the story. He didn't use kaioken against black just like against kale. That has nothing to do with my reasoning. Your explanation for these events don't matter at all since they aren't the in universe reasons.

It's stated by one of the writers that he only used the form to test his opponents during the recruiting episodes. He wanted to see what they would do in such a situation with that power difference.

I already addressed the "little more power" statement. The Kamehameha was a little more power than he was outputting in Ssb. No reason at all to downplay kale to ssj2 Goku level outside of bias.
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Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:45 PM
SSJ is their natural power. Kaioken is a technique that amplifies the user's power beyond their current limits; they're two completely different things.

And yeah, I do want to come up with an explanation. If we all just agreed 'it doesn't make sense, I dunno why', what would we talk about? It'd just be an echo chamber talking about how strong these characters are with no proper discussion or context.

I was talking about Kaioken because it's been said that Kale is far beyond SSB Goku, and in the context of the TOP, it wouldn't make sense for him to not use it. Even if his full power does include KK, which I think it doesn't, the statement he made when transforming implies that he wasn't getting near the point where he'd have to use it.
Kaioken is still his power, it's just like SSJ. Kaioken x10 SSB is his full-power. "Natural-power" is debatable and irrelevant as natural-power has nothing to do with it, you're moving the goalposts. I think SSB kkx10 is his full-power. I already addressed all this, even now in the TOP he's fighting in weaker forms and getting his sh*t kicked in. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Aug 13 2017, 08:46 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:29 PM
@Gogeta Sorry, but no. Firstly, where's the statement that Goku was holding back against everyone when recruiting them? Secondly, we get a statement from Goku that he's going to use 'a little more power', and you've just proven yourself that he can control how strong he is in SSB, so all you have to do is use a bit of logic.

And sorry, 'no explanation' doesn't fly. That's not an answer to my question, that's just a cop-out because your line of reasoning doesn't work at all.

@Pick So, I take it you didn't find any comment about Kaioken then? A person's full power is different from a technique that amplifies that power. Kaioken isn't his natural 'full power'.

And there it is. You don't want any discussion at all, do you? ''He just does''. That isn't an answer. You don't provide any kind of possible explanation for it.
No, there is no explanation, so you're using it as an excuse to insert headcanon into the story. He didn't use kaioken against black just like against kale. That has nothing to do with my reasoning. Your explanation for these events don't matter at all since they aren't the in universe reasons.

It's stated by one of the writers that he only used the form to test his opponents during the recruiting episodes. He wanted to see what they would do in such a situation with that power difference.

I already addressed the "little more power" statement. The Kamehameha was a little more power than he was outputting in Ssb. No reason at all to downplay kale to ssj2 Goku level outside of bias.
Okay, so how much of SSB's power was Goku using? Either he underestimated her durability, or launched a full-powered Kamehameha at her knowing that it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever (therefore just wasting energy and leaving himself open to an attack from her). Which one honestly seems more logical to you?
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Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:51 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 08:46 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:29 PM
@Gogeta Sorry, but no. Firstly, where's the statement that Goku was holding back against everyone when recruiting them? Secondly, we get a statement from Goku that he's going to use 'a little more power', and you've just proven yourself that he can control how strong he is in SSB, so all you have to do is use a bit of logic.

And sorry, 'no explanation' doesn't fly. That's not an answer to my question, that's just a cop-out because your line of reasoning doesn't work at all.

@Pick So, I take it you didn't find any comment about Kaioken then? A person's full power is different from a technique that amplifies that power. Kaioken isn't his natural 'full power'.

And there it is. You don't want any discussion at all, do you? ''He just does''. That isn't an answer. You don't provide any kind of possible explanation for it.
No, there is no explanation, so you're using it as an excuse to insert headcanon into the story. He didn't use kaioken against black just like against kale. That has nothing to do with my reasoning. Your explanation for these events don't matter at all since they aren't the in universe reasons.

It's stated by one of the writers that he only used the form to test his opponents during the recruiting episodes. He wanted to see what they would do in such a situation with that power difference.

I already addressed the "little more power" statement. The Kamehameha was a little more power than he was outputting in Ssb. No reason at all to downplay kale to ssj2 Goku level outside of bias.
Okay, so how much of SSB's power was Goku using? Either he underestimated her durability, or launched a full-powered Kamehameha at her knowing that it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever (therefore just wasting energy and leaving himself open to an attack from her). Which one honestly seems more logical to you?
He wasn't restricting his forms power. He just didn't fire a full power Kamehameha. He didn't think that kale would tank it.

He went Ssb and stated that he was going to output a little more power than his current level. So he fires a Kamehameha at kale expecting it to do something and it did nothing. Nothing about Goku suppressing his Ssb to 1/1000th of its original power was ever hinted at.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Aug 13 2017, 08:59 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:51 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 08:46 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:29 PM
@Gogeta Sorry, but no. Firstly, where's the statement that Goku was holding back against everyone when recruiting them? Secondly, we get a statement from Goku that he's going to use 'a little more power', and you've just proven yourself that he can control how strong he is in SSB, so all you have to do is use a bit of logic.

And sorry, 'no explanation' doesn't fly. That's not an answer to my question, that's just a cop-out because your line of reasoning doesn't work at all.

@Pick So, I take it you didn't find any comment about Kaioken then? A person's full power is different from a technique that amplifies that power. Kaioken isn't his natural 'full power'.

And there it is. You don't want any discussion at all, do you? ''He just does''. That isn't an answer. You don't provide any kind of possible explanation for it.
No, there is no explanation, so you're using it as an excuse to insert headcanon into the story. He didn't use kaioken against black just like against kale. That has nothing to do with my reasoning. Your explanation for these events don't matter at all since they aren't the in universe reasons.

It's stated by one of the writers that he only used the form to test his opponents during the recruiting episodes. He wanted to see what they would do in such a situation with that power difference.

I already addressed the "little more power" statement. The Kamehameha was a little more power than he was outputting in Ssb. No reason at all to downplay kale to ssj2 Goku level outside of bias.
Okay, so how much of SSB's power was Goku using? Either he underestimated her durability, or launched a full-powered Kamehameha at her knowing that it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever (therefore just wasting energy and leaving himself open to an attack from her). Which one honestly seems more logical to you?
He wasn't restricting his forms power. He just didn't fire a full power Kamehameha. He didn't think that kale would tank it.

He went Ssb and stated that he was going to output a little more power than his current level. So he fires a Kamehameha at kale expecting it to do something and it did nothing. Nothing about Goku suppressing his Ssb to 1/1000th of its original power was ever hinted at.
Why didn't he think Kale would tank it? He can sense how powerful she is, can't he?
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Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 09:02 PM
SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Aug 13 2017, 08:59 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:51 PM
SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Aug 13 2017, 08:46 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:29 PM
@Gogeta Sorry, but no. Firstly, where's the statement that Goku was holding back against everyone when recruiting them? Secondly, we get a statement from Goku that he's going to use 'a little more power', and you've just proven yourself that he can control how strong he is in SSB, so all you have to do is use a bit of logic.

And sorry, 'no explanation' doesn't fly. That's not an answer to my question, that's just a cop-out because your line of reasoning doesn't work at all.

@Pick So, I take it you didn't find any comment about Kaioken then? A person's full power is different from a technique that amplifies that power. Kaioken isn't his natural 'full power'.

And there it is. You don't want any discussion at all, do you? ''He just does''. That isn't an answer. You don't provide any kind of possible explanation for it.
No, there is no explanation, so you're using it as an excuse to insert headcanon into the story. He didn't use kaioken against black just like against kale. That has nothing to do with my reasoning. Your explanation for these events don't matter at all since they aren't the in universe reasons.

It's stated by one of the writers that he only used the form to test his opponents during the recruiting episodes. He wanted to see what they would do in such a situation with that power difference.

I already addressed the "little more power" statement. The Kamehameha was a little more power than he was outputting in Ssb. No reason at all to downplay kale to ssj2 Goku level outside of bias.
Okay, so how much of SSB's power was Goku using? Either he underestimated her durability, or launched a full-powered Kamehameha at her knowing that it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever (therefore just wasting energy and leaving himself open to an attack from her). Which one honestly seems more logical to you?
He wasn't restricting his forms power. He just didn't fire a full power Kamehameha. He didn't think that kale would tank it.

He went Ssb and stated that he was going to output a little more power than his current level. So he fires a Kamehameha at kale expecting it to do something and it did nothing. Nothing about Goku suppressing his Ssb to 1/1000th of its original power was ever hinted at.
Why didn't he think Kale would tank it? He can sense how powerful she is, can't he?
Why did cell think he could beat ssj2 Gohan? He could sense his power couldn't he?

Ki sensing isn't the end all be all of gauging an opponents strength. A lot of times the gap has to physically be seen.
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* Yu Narukami
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Aug 13 2017, 09:05 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 09:02 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 08:59 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:51 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 08:46 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:29 PM
@Gogeta Sorry, but no. Firstly, where's the statement that Goku was holding back against everyone when recruiting them? Secondly, we get a statement from Goku that he's going to use 'a little more power', and you've just proven yourself that he can control how strong he is in SSB, so all you have to do is use a bit of logic.

And sorry, 'no explanation' doesn't fly. That's not an answer to my question, that's just a cop-out because your line of reasoning doesn't work at all.

@Pick So, I take it you didn't find any comment about Kaioken then? A person's full power is different from a technique that amplifies that power. Kaioken isn't his natural 'full power'.

And there it is. You don't want any discussion at all, do you? ''He just does''. That isn't an answer. You don't provide any kind of possible explanation for it.
No, there is no explanation, so you're using it as an excuse to insert headcanon into the story. He didn't use kaioken against black just like against kale. That has nothing to do with my reasoning. Your explanation for these events don't matter at all since they aren't the in universe reasons.

It's stated by one of the writers that he only used the form to test his opponents during the recruiting episodes. He wanted to see what they would do in such a situation with that power difference.

I already addressed the "little more power" statement. The Kamehameha was a little more power than he was outputting in Ssb. No reason at all to downplay kale to ssj2 Goku level outside of bias.
Okay, so how much of SSB's power was Goku using? Either he underestimated her durability, or launched a full-powered Kamehameha at her knowing that it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever (therefore just wasting energy and leaving himself open to an attack from her). Which one honestly seems more logical to you?
He wasn't restricting his forms power. He just didn't fire a full power Kamehameha. He didn't think that kale would tank it.

He went Ssb and stated that he was going to output a little more power than his current level. So he fires a Kamehameha at kale expecting it to do something and it did nothing. Nothing about Goku suppressing his Ssb to 1/1000th of its original power was ever hinted at.
Why didn't he think Kale would tank it? He can sense how powerful she is, can't he?
Why did cell think he could beat ssj2 Gohan? He could sense his power couldn't he?

Ki sensing isn't the end all be all of gauging an opponents strength. A lot of times the gap has to physically be seen.
Come on, you could tell Cell was losing it, that's why he bulked up and got his rear-end beaten. That's nothing like this current situation. Why did Goku not realise that Kale would tank his Kamehameha completely? Goku's good enough at sensing Ki to know if the gap is that big.
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i cant believe this topic is still up

ok this may be too early, but answer this theory

why didnt goku just use super saiyan god at full power against kale, now there is a chance this form just is pulled out of goku's a**s, but if he has had it the whole time lets just say, why didnt he use it instead of ssjb
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Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 09:08 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 09:05 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 09:02 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 08:59 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:51 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 08:46 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:29 PM
@Gogeta Sorry, but no. Firstly, where's the statement that Goku was holding back against everyone when recruiting them? Secondly, we get a statement from Goku that he's going to use 'a little more power', and you've just proven yourself that he can control how strong he is in SSB, so all you have to do is use a bit of logic.

And sorry, 'no explanation' doesn't fly. That's not an answer to my question, that's just a cop-out because your line of reasoning doesn't work at all.

@Pick So, I take it you didn't find any comment about Kaioken then? A person's full power is different from a technique that amplifies that power. Kaioken isn't his natural 'full power'.

And there it is. You don't want any discussion at all, do you? ''He just does''. That isn't an answer. You don't provide any kind of possible explanation for it.
No, there is no explanation, so you're using it as an excuse to insert headcanon into the story. He didn't use kaioken against black just like against kale. That has nothing to do with my reasoning. Your explanation for these events don't matter at all since they aren't the in universe reasons.

It's stated by one of the writers that he only used the form to test his opponents during the recruiting episodes. He wanted to see what they would do in such a situation with that power difference.

I already addressed the "little more power" statement. The Kamehameha was a little more power than he was outputting in Ssb. No reason at all to downplay kale to ssj2 Goku level outside of bias.
Okay, so how much of SSB's power was Goku using? Either he underestimated her durability, or launched a full-powered Kamehameha at her knowing that it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever (therefore just wasting energy and leaving himself open to an attack from her). Which one honestly seems more logical to you?
He wasn't restricting his forms power. He just didn't fire a full power Kamehameha. He didn't think that kale would tank it.

He went Ssb and stated that he was going to output a little more power than his current level. So he fires a Kamehameha at kale expecting it to do something and it did nothing. Nothing about Goku suppressing his Ssb to 1/1000th of its original power was ever hinted at.
Why didn't he think Kale would tank it? He can sense how powerful she is, can't he?
Why did cell think he could beat ssj2 Gohan? He could sense his power couldn't he?

Ki sensing isn't the end all be all of gauging an opponents strength. A lot of times the gap has to physically be seen.
Come on, you could tell Cell was losing it, that's why he bulked up and got his rear-end beaten. That's nothing like this current situation. Why did Goku not realise that Kale would tank his Kamehameha completely? Goku's good enough at sensing Ki to know if the gap is that big.
Cell didn't begin losing it until Gohan started beating him. He couldn't tell that Gohan was stronger until Gohan tanked him. Don't know how this is any different. All that's shown is that Goku fired a Kamehameha expecting it to do something but it did nothing. So just like Gohan and cell, this is a situation where he had to see it to believe it.
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Aug 13 2017, 09:22 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 08:59 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 08:46 PM
Yu Narukami
Aug 13 2017, 08:29 PM
@Gogeta Sorry, but no. Firstly, where's the statement that Goku was holding back against everyone when recruiting them? Secondly, we get a statement from Goku that he's going to use 'a little more power', and you've just proven yourself that he can control how strong he is in SSB, so all you have to do is use a bit of logic.

And sorry, 'no explanation' doesn't fly. That's not an answer to my question, that's just a cop-out because your line of reasoning doesn't work at all.

@Pick So, I take it you didn't find any comment about Kaioken then? A person's full power is different from a technique that amplifies that power. Kaioken isn't his natural 'full power'.

And there it is. You don't want any discussion at all, do you? ''He just does''. That isn't an answer. You don't provide any kind of possible explanation for it.
No, there is no explanation, so you're using it as an excuse to insert headcanon into the story. He didn't use kaioken against black just like against kale. That has nothing to do with my reasoning. Your explanation for these events don't matter at all since they aren't the in universe reasons.

It's stated by one of the writers that he only used the form to test his opponents during the recruiting episodes. He wanted to see what they would do in such a situation with that power difference.

I already addressed the "little more power" statement. The Kamehameha was a little more power than he was outputting in Ssb. No reason at all to downplay kale to ssj2 Goku level outside of bias.
Okay, so how much of SSB's power was Goku using? Either he underestimated her durability, or launched a full-powered Kamehameha at her knowing that it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever (therefore just wasting energy and leaving himself open to an attack from her). Which one honestly seems more logical to you?
He wasn't restricting his forms power. He just didn't fire a full power Kamehameha. He didn't think that kale would tank it.

He went Ssb and stated that he was going to output a little more power than his current level. So he fires a Kamehameha at kale expecting it to do something and it did nothing. Nothing about Goku suppressing his Ssb to 1/1000th of its original power was ever hinted at.
Why didn't he think Kale would tank it? He can sense how powerful she is, can't he?
Why did cell think he could beat ssj2 Gohan? He could sense his power couldn't he?

Ki sensing isn't the end all be all of gauging an opponents strength. A lot of times the gap has to physically be seen.
Come on, you could tell Cell was losing it, that's why he bulked up and got his rear-end beaten. That's nothing like this current situation. Why did Goku not realise that Kale would tank his Kamehameha completely? Goku's good enough at sensing Ki to know if the gap is that big.
Cell didn't begin losing it until Gohan started beating him. He couldn't tell that Gohan was stronger until Gohan tanked him. Don't know how this is any different. All that's shown is that Goku fired a Kamehameha expecting it to do something but it did nothing. So just like Gohan and cell, this is a situation where he had to see it to believe it.
Why did Cell use the performance of his Cell Juniors against Gohan to measure his power instead of actually sensing it himself? Once he realises how strong Gohan is, he loses it.

Are you seriously telling me that Goku had to 'see Kale's power to believe it' when he was getting pummelled by her as a SSJ2?
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+ Pyrus
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Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”


D7 Special Attack Index
 
A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one's body, multiplying all one's abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one's abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-ken might destroy one's own body. When the user's battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-ken above those limits. The Kaio-ken's designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it.

Kaio-ken is never considered somebody's "full power" – it's a learned technique, not something they're able to organically access like Super Saiyan, which is built-in to a Saiyan's genes basically. "Full power" can either mean a person's overall, naturally accessible power (meaning with transformations included), or what they're currently capable of in one state of being (i.e. SSJ2 Goku stating he would use full power against Majin Vegeta, despite having access to Super Saiyan 3).

I have yet to see when anybody referenced Goku's Kaio-ken status as his pinnacle. Even in the fight with Toppo, Goku specifically said he'd show what it looked like when he "passed his limit," which was using Kaio-ken.
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 13 2017, 09:33 PM.
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Aug 13 2017, 09:25 PM
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Aug 13 2017, 08:29 PM
@Gogeta Sorry, but no. Firstly, where's the statement that Goku was holding back against everyone when recruiting them? Secondly, we get a statement from Goku that he's going to use 'a little more power', and you've just proven yourself that he can control how strong he is in SSB, so all you have to do is use a bit of logic.

And sorry, 'no explanation' doesn't fly. That's not an answer to my question, that's just a cop-out because your line of reasoning doesn't work at all.

@Pick So, I take it you didn't find any comment about Kaioken then? A person's full power is different from a technique that amplifies that power. Kaioken isn't his natural 'full power'.

And there it is. You don't want any discussion at all, do you? ''He just does''. That isn't an answer. You don't provide any kind of possible explanation for it.
No, there is no explanation, so you're using it as an excuse to insert headcanon into the story. He didn't use kaioken against black just like against kale. That has nothing to do with my reasoning. Your explanation for these events don't matter at all since they aren't the in universe reasons.

It's stated by one of the writers that he only used the form to test his opponents during the recruiting episodes. He wanted to see what they would do in such a situation with that power difference.

I already addressed the "little more power" statement. The Kamehameha was a little more power than he was outputting in Ssb. No reason at all to downplay kale to ssj2 Goku level outside of bias.
Okay, so how much of SSB's power was Goku using? Either he underestimated her durability, or launched a full-powered Kamehameha at her knowing that it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever (therefore just wasting energy and leaving himself open to an attack from her). Which one honestly seems more logical to you?
He wasn't restricting his forms power. He just didn't fire a full power Kamehameha. He didn't think that kale would tank it.

He went Ssb and stated that he was going to output a little more power than his current level. So he fires a Kamehameha at kale expecting it to do something and it did nothing. Nothing about Goku suppressing his Ssb to 1/1000th of its original power was ever hinted at.
Why didn't he think Kale would tank it? He can sense how powerful she is, can't he?
Why did cell think he could beat ssj2 Gohan? He could sense his power couldn't he?

Ki sensing isn't the end all be all of gauging an opponents strength. A lot of times the gap has to physically be seen.
Come on, you could tell Cell was losing it, that's why he bulked up and got his rear-end beaten. That's nothing like this current situation. Why did Goku not realise that Kale would tank his Kamehameha completely? Goku's good enough at sensing Ki to know if the gap is that big.
Cell didn't begin losing it until Gohan started beating him. He couldn't tell that Gohan was stronger until Gohan tanked him. Don't know how this is any different. All that's shown is that Goku fired a Kamehameha expecting it to do something but it did nothing. So just like Gohan and cell, this is a situation where he had to see it to believe it.
Why did Cell use the performance of his Cell Juniors against Gohan to measure his power instead of actually sensing it himself? Once he realises how strong Gohan is, he loses it.

Are you seriously telling me that Goku had to 'see Kale's power to believe it' when he was getting pummelled by her as a SSJ2?
And cell didn't realize it from ki sensing. He needed to test his power Vs gohans.

Yes Goku did, because that's what was shown. He wouldn't fire a Kamehameha at her knowing it wouldn't do anything.
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@Gogeta Sorry, but no. Firstly, where's the statement that Goku was holding back against everyone when recruiting them? Secondly, we get a statement from Goku that he's going to use 'a little more power', and you've just proven yourself that he can control how strong he is in SSB, so all you have to do is use a bit of logic.

And sorry, 'no explanation' doesn't fly. That's not an answer to my question, that's just a cop-out because your line of reasoning doesn't work at all.

@Pick So, I take it you didn't find any comment about Kaioken then? A person's full power is different from a technique that amplifies that power. Kaioken isn't his natural 'full power'.

And there it is. You don't want any discussion at all, do you? ''He just does''. That isn't an answer. You don't provide any kind of possible explanation for it.
No, there is no explanation, so you're using it as an excuse to insert headcanon into the story. He didn't use kaioken against black just like against kale. That has nothing to do with my reasoning. Your explanation for these events don't matter at all since they aren't the in universe reasons.

It's stated by one of the writers that he only used the form to test his opponents during the recruiting episodes. He wanted to see what they would do in such a situation with that power difference.

I already addressed the "little more power" statement. The Kamehameha was a little more power than he was outputting in Ssb. No reason at all to downplay kale to ssj2 Goku level outside of bias.
Okay, so how much of SSB's power was Goku using? Either he underestimated her durability, or launched a full-powered Kamehameha at her knowing that it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever (therefore just wasting energy and leaving himself open to an attack from her). Which one honestly seems more logical to you?
He wasn't restricting his forms power. He just didn't fire a full power Kamehameha. He didn't think that kale would tank it.

He went Ssb and stated that he was going to output a little more power than his current level. So he fires a Kamehameha at kale expecting it to do something and it did nothing. Nothing about Goku suppressing his Ssb to 1/1000th of its original power was ever hinted at.
Why didn't he think Kale would tank it? He can sense how powerful she is, can't he?
Why did cell think he could beat ssj2 Gohan? He could sense his power couldn't he?

Ki sensing isn't the end all be all of gauging an opponents strength. A lot of times the gap has to physically be seen.
Come on, you could tell Cell was losing it, that's why he bulked up and got his rear-end beaten. That's nothing like this current situation. Why did Goku not realise that Kale would tank his Kamehameha completely? Goku's good enough at sensing Ki to know if the gap is that big.
Cell didn't begin losing it until Gohan started beating him. He couldn't tell that Gohan was stronger until Gohan tanked him. Don't know how this is any different. All that's shown is that Goku fired a Kamehameha expecting it to do something but it did nothing. So just like Gohan and cell, this is a situation where he had to see it to believe it.
Why did Cell use the performance of his Cell Juniors against Gohan to measure his power instead of actually sensing it himself? Once he realises how strong Gohan is, he loses it.

Are you seriously telling me that Goku had to 'see Kale's power to believe it' when he was getting pummelled by her as a SSJ2?
And cell didn't realize it from ki sensing. He needed to test his power Vs gohans.

Yes Goku did, because that's what was shown. He wouldn't fire a Kamehameha at her knowing it wouldn't do anything.
Dude, he saw her power when she was beating him down, how else is he going to see it to believe it?

So, what, he either got it wrong, or she's more durable than her PL suggests?
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