Greenough

Jul 19 2017, 02:32 PM

Just a personal view but I don't think Mecha Frieza or Future Trunks are that high.
Androids Saga levels seem a bit low, specifically Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo. They trained for three years, I'm not so sure Goku would only increase his power by 1 million. Especially when you have Gohan increasing his power by 3 million. You should add Vegeta after losing some energy from #19, who should be weaker than #20 and Piccolo. I'd also add the androids pre and post absorptions.
Initial Imperfect Cell should be higher. I believe the statement about him is that he's a lot stronger than #18. Semi-Perfect Cell had an initial power and full power, not too important imo. Vegeta says that Trunks almost has as much power as he does, so Trunks should be a little lower.
Piccolo should be way higher imo, he probably surpassed Semi-Perfect Cell after RoSaT. Super Perfect Cell is too high imo, Gohan should still be stronger otherwise his full power probably wouldn't have killed Cell. Gohan's full power was extremely more powerful and he was able to hold on for a while with less than half of his power. I'd add weakened SS2 Gohan.

Goten and Trunks are way too low. They shouldn't be that far from Gohan. Goku and Majin Vegeta are too high, they should be closer to Gohan (Cell Games). Fat Buu had a few power ups, I'd add those. SS3 Goku was stronger, but he wasn't that much further along. Too big of a gap.
Super Saiyan Gotenks pre-rosat should be stronger than SS3 Goku. Way too small of gains for Goten and Trunks post-rosat. Gotenks had a significant increase of power in his base form alone. Kid Buu's power goes along with what I said about Goku.

Why is Krillin so high in RF? He hadn't trained yet.
Cabba should be equal to Vegeta.
Zenkais don't exist anymore for Goku and Vegeta. In the manga Trunks says that they've trained so much that they don't get a boost anymore. While a guidebook stated that zenkais became minuscule after attaining Super Saiyan.

superperfectnerd

Jul 19 2017, 02:56 PM

Greenough

Jul 19 2017, 02:32 PM

Just a personal view but I don't think Mecha Frieza or Future Trunks are that high.
Androids Saga levels seem a bit low, specifically Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo. They trained for three years, I'm not so sure Goku would only increase his power by 1 million. Especially when you have Gohan increasing his power by 3 million. You should add Vegeta after losing some energy from #19, who should be weaker than #20 and Piccolo. I'd also add the androids pre and post absorptions.
Initial Imperfect Cell should be higher. I believe the statement about him is that he's a lot stronger than #18. Semi-Perfect Cell had an initial power and full power, not too important imo. Vegeta says that Trunks almost has as much power as he does, so Trunks should be a little lower.
Piccolo should be way higher imo, he probably surpassed Semi-Perfect Cell after RoSaT. Super Perfect Cell is too high imo, Gohan should still be stronger otherwise his full power probably wouldn't have killed Cell. Gohan's full power was extremely more powerful and he was able to hold on for a while with less than half of his power. I'd add weakened SS2 Gohan.

Goten and Trunks are way too low. They shouldn't be that far from Gohan. Goku and Majin Vegeta are too high, they should be closer to Gohan (Cell Games). Fat Buu had a few power ups, I'd add those. SS3 Goku was stronger, but he wasn't that much further along. Too big of a gap.
Super Saiyan Gotenks pre-rosat should be stronger than SS3 Goku. Way too small of gains for Goten and Trunks post-rosat. Gotenks had a significant increase of power in his base form alone. Kid Buu's power goes along with what I said about Goku.

Why is Krillin so high in RF? He hadn't trained yet.
Cabba should be equal to Vegeta.
Zenkais don't exist anymore for Goku and Vegeta. In the manga Trunks says that they've trained so much that they don't get a boost anymore. While a guidebook stated that zenkais became minuscule after attaining Super Saiyan.

It's about the method of training.

Goku trains for three years with opponents weaker than him, so doesn't get that much stronger and Vegeta is using gravity training which Goku has already moved on from, it gets him stronger but the gains slow down.

Android 17 and 18 are close, I only have a 10% difference for them and Cell can't take them on together at this point. The androids can also fight constantly at their max, Cell can't.

Vegeta is just boasting, any difference in power between Trunks and him is negligible IMO.

If Piccolo is higher that would mean he advanced more in a year of training than ssj Vegeta and Trunks, I have him where he is because he comes out weaker than the ssjs, I don't think after equal time in the ROSAT Vegeta would lose to Piccolo without using assj.

Gohan always has his extra rage power to draw on but it's inconsistent, at base level I think Cell had an advantage, otherwise he should have remained in space and gone and trained rather than returning to a battlefield with a ssj2 stronger than him and 2 assjs.

Recent material has shown that Goten and Trunks aren't all that individually, so I still have them weaker than 18 even after their ROSAT training bu their level is still very impressive for to green children.

Goku and Vegeta trained for 7 years, Gohan was a very impressive level and two times stronger than him still isn't that much for 7 years of training.

Fat Boo is similar to the androids in that he can use his full power continuously with no fatigue so his literal power level is not the full story to how great he actually is in battle, he doesn't need to be much stronger and bloating him bloats ssj Gotenks, which bloats ssj3 Gotenks, which bloats Super Boo, which bloats Gohan which makes Goku and Vegeta hundreds if not thousands of times weaker than their children which I just don't think is the intention even with some careless statements about power from the characters/Toriyama.

Same as before, can't see Gotenks hundreds of times Goku.

The potara being fusees multiplied is old guidebook logic and is completely ludicrous for scaling, I think it's been disproved by actual feats and implications of character power against Kid Boo and also in Super.

Kid Boo is 10% weaker than ssj3 Goku but again, can fight constantly at full power and doesn't lose stamina, so he outclasses Goku by a hefty margin in actual combat.

I think Krillin started training if Roshi can take on Freeza soldiers, I mean they live together and nobody was shocked at Roshi's strength. Th movie is my canon too, it came first after all, so I don't count that Krillin nervous scene.

Vegeta tanks his ssj attack, Vegeta was slightly holding back initially and was shocked that Cabba could fight even with that.

Zenkais not existing is in the manga and this is based on the anime. A 25% increase after near death recovery is minuscule compared to Namek zenkais.

superperfectnerd

Jul 19 2017, 03:55 PM

Gotenks is stronger but not thousands of times so, I don't really mind if Goten and Trunks are stronger, I'd just reduce the fusion multiplier but 18 seems confident against them as ssjs and recently Goten and Trunks are left out of everything, it cant just simply be because they're kids if they have so much power, it must be because the humans have become relative to early ssj levels, which Goten and Trunks are at to make that work. Gohan and Vegeta could have been shocked at the boys' level because they expected them to be like Namek arc Gohan at the most and they're in the hundreds of millions.

I just don't see Vegeta maintaining his pride if he can't surpass ssj2 Gohan and super perfect Cell y at least 25% in 7 years. Makes no sense, doesn't matter what Piccolo states, his sensing is undermined by feats all throughout this arc.

I know that's why Goku lost yeah, that's what I'm saying, he has more raw powr but it means little against Boo.

I meant saiyan zenkais in the Namek saga.

ThePrinceOfSaiyans

Jul 19 2017, 04:03 PM

I've been f***ing around with Super power levels myself, and I think I've found a way to get it to work without bloating things to the degree they were previously. Yes, Saiyan Beyond God isn't stronger than Super Saiyan God here, but I do believe that exchange between Gohan and Kuririn in episode 24 is open to interpretation. My approach here was to make the "Quake of Fury" power up the base power of a Saiyan whose attained God. I did this because Vegeta being able to keep up with Goku's battle with Beerus always struck me as odd, so I figured the "Quake of Fury" power up was the beginnings of attaining God power so to speak. Maybe I'm off base with that, but this prevents things from getting too bloated IMO.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQXUKG8Yhk-kQotG0I_SzdVnVE3z5SSCuaxi8rE4p3lw_krarP8fgnBawrZbSCxolzmPx2RYdJrwJSO/pub

Yu Narukami

Jul 19 2017, 04:56 PM

What's up to interpretation in regards to Krillin and Gohan's conversation in Ep. 24? It's been a while since I've seen the actual statement, but I'm pretty sure it was clear.