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| There is no two base system | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 18 2017, 04:26 PM (2,010 Views) | |
| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Jul 18 2017, 07:38 PM Post #16 |
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Zenkais don't have established increases, but that's why they work. Yeah, Goku's 33 times increase toward the end of the arc is little ridiculous, but that's one power up that sorta makes you scratch your head. Everything else is reasonable. He's trained by a God, he trains in 100 times gravity, he gets prophetic transformation, it all works. I'm not sure why you're bringing up Earthly deities, what are you trying to prove with this? Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jul 18 2017, 07:38 PM.
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| superperfectnerd | Jul 18 2017, 07:46 PM Post #17 |
 
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Made even more ridiculous when, True form Frost > Piccolo (uni 6) > third form Frost > base Goku (uni 6) > base Cabba > base Goku (ROF) > true form Freeza > friggin' ssjg Goku! -226 times gap- first form Freeza >>> ssj Gohan > Tagoma (Ginyu possessed) > base Gohan > Piccolo I'm sorry but the Namek gap wasn't anywhere close to as big and Goku went through new training methods and threats from outside of the Earth, Vegeta had been chillin as an elite, you think he was challenged by anyone in the universe? Then they took on Freeza who also needed Vegeta alive, hence multiple zenkais, plus Gok had Kaioken. This isn't the same, Piccolo's gains there are absolutely ridiculous and the fact Cabba is an inexperienced kid and he's beyond ssjg? What was the point of the ritual? Goku and Vegeta could have just sparred for a few hours probs. Edited by superperfectnerd, Jul 18 2017, 07:52 PM.
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| Thiln | Jul 18 2017, 07:57 PM Post #18 |
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It's moreso the extreme depths to which those increases are becoming actualised and how most around Goku are reflecting similar benefits through their increases. Vegeta's initial two zenkais were more or less consistent. It's only the subsequent one from battling the Ginyu Force that's called into question because we don't know how much precisely he increased in power, but it was apparently enough to make short work of Jeice and then do battle with Freeza in his first form after a short rest. A short span of time later and already he has surpassed Piccolo who's increase in power is absurd in its own right. From there on the characters seem to increase in powers by absurd amounts through methods you wouldn't think could yield such results like Piccolo and Vegeta becoming arguably comparable to Base Goku on Namek through 625 days of wilderness training, the same methods used back in the middle of Dragon Ball. I'm citing the earthly deities as a precedential justification for exonerating others like, say, the U6 participants for being "god-tier". Characters who happen to classify as gods were overtaken in the past through questionably simple means, why couldn't the same principle apply now? I'm essentially speaking for only one base existing. |
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Jul 18 2017, 08:37 PM Post #19 |
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My question for you would be why do you think a Zenkai shouldn't provide the increases we see in the Freeza arc? Zenkais weren't subject to any stated rules, so the increases they provided don't contradict anything. I'll agree that Vegeta's seemingly slow acting Zenkai after getting smacked around by Reacoom, and Goku's massive Zenkai after exiting the healing tank do stand out, but there could be any number of in-universe explanations for those increases. The mechanics of the Zenkai being left purposefully vague I think was smart. As for Piccolo and Vegeta nearing Goku's level on Namek after about a year and 8 months, I don't see why that would be unbelievable, especially in Vegeta's case. Piccolo managed to greatly increase his strength during the training for the Saiyans by simply training in the wilderness. I'll agree that the Saiyan arc increase calls into question what Piccolo was doing for those 5 years after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, but maybe the multiform training thing was something he implemented after the battle with Raditz. Heck, maybe Piccolo simply devoted most of his time working on the Makankosappo. As for Vegeta, the anime does suggest that Vegeta received another Zenkai after being revived by Shenlong, so Vegeta might not have even trained during that time. I'm willing to concede that some of the increases in this series don't provide enough context for me to suspend my disbelief, I.E. Piccolo getting stronger than Nail by simply meditating on Kaio's planet for 6-ish days, but instances like that are so few and far between. Super's problem is that everyone is getting ludicrous power ups in ridiculously short amounts of time. Gohan getting as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku in a half a day by simply training with Piccolo is a new record. I don't think this is in any way comparable. As we've seen, these newer gods are the exception to the rule. More importantly though, these characters getting this strong, this quickly is unprecedented. Say what you want about Goku going from a power level of 416 to 150,000,000 in less than 2 years, at least there have several reasons for it. Freeza trains for 4 months, and I'm just supposed to accept he's leapfrogged everyone? |
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| superperfectnerd | Jul 18 2017, 08:47 PM Post #20 |
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Goku and Vegeta were facing threats from their own universe before and their power was tested by new opponents which spurred them on to find new ways to power up, hence why Vegeta sat on 18 000 for a long time, only once he challenged Freeza's forces did he grow. But what has a seemingly green saiyan like Cabba done to surpass ssjg? We aren't talking about earthly deities here or tyrants who sat around and never needed to work for power, we're talking about top tier, universal level power which Goku said he "couldn't achieve on his own". It's not the same as Goku and Vegeta just hitting their stride on Namek, or Piccolo's gains after fusing and then sparring a ssj for three years. These are inexplicable power boosts with no attempt at any coherent explanation at all. Even if it's not intended in the show, I can't help but cling to the two base theory. Edited by superperfectnerd, Jul 18 2017, 08:48 PM.
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Jul 18 2017, 09:00 PM Post #21 |
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魔王子
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Also, something I remembered, how the hell is there not a 2-base theory when Base Black is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku by Trunks's own admission? If there isn't one, that would mean Rose Black is waaaaaaaaaaaaay stronger than Blue Goku. Over 400 times stronger in fact.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jul 18 2017, 09:03 PM.
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| superperfectnerd | Jul 18 2017, 09:04 PM Post #22 |
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Or Goku and Vegeta literally get more than 400 times stronger for their last trip to the future |
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| Slifer | Jul 18 2017, 09:05 PM Post #23 |
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If there are two bases then why the hell aren't Goku and Vegeta using the strong one right now? It dwarfs anything from Z including Vegetto, yet they had trouble with a bunch of randoms from U9, one of which got whooped by Good Boo. |
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Jul 18 2017, 09:05 PM Post #24 |
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魔王子
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That doesn't work because Goku and Trunks are able to put up some of a fight against Black. |
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| superperfectnerd | Jul 18 2017, 09:20 PM Post #25 |
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Yeah I know, I was being sarcastic. That's the only way there's one base and they can match Black. As for why they don't use their godly base, I don't think they can anymore after reacquiring their regular base and ssj forms in the ROSAT, which they did because training their regular base is easier and that's also why Vegeta was wrong about them already being near their limit, they needed to go back to training their base forms and sitting around in 'saiyan beyond God' form was actually weakening the full potential of blue. But that's just my head canon. |
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| Black | Jul 18 2017, 09:26 PM Post #26 |
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I get it that U6 is "evolved Saiyans" and all that s***, but Cabba being even on the Namek's levels of power prior to attaining SSJ is still somewhat impressive compared to most U7 Saiyans... For me, if two-base theory doesn't exist, then Vegeta was just holding back massively and Cabba's SSJ is actually Namek's Goku SSJ level. Maybe it sounds ridiculous, but it's certainly less ridiculous than having him beyond SSJG. The same SSJG which was trading blows with Beerus. Can Cabba put some sort of a fight against Beerus now? No, he would be finger-flicked the way SSJ3 Goku was, except a lot worse. |
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| superperfectnerd | Jul 18 2017, 09:31 PM Post #27 |
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I honestly don't think the writers know the implications they're making. It wouldn't surprise me if after all this there's an episode where Cabba comes to Earth and has an evenly matched spar with Trunks. It just seems that they look at the forms and that's it. If they're in base they're relative, if they're ssj they're relative etc and forget that Goku and Vegeta were only ss1 for aaaaaaages and yet fought stronger and stronger opponents. |
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| Thiln | Jul 18 2017, 09:48 PM Post #28 |
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I can't find the precise Daizenshuu entry for zenkais, but if this description is to be assumed correct, near-death power increases, and I paraphrase, "imprint new experiences to lessen the chances of same injury happening again and likewise dramatically increasing their raw might after recovering from injuries." One could infer that the aforementioned experiences of contact with the severity and refinement of strength from the opponent who placed the Saiyan into that near-death state would act as the external impetus which the genetically inspired enhancement of survivalist strength is based on. Far as we know, these rapid upsurges of power only apply to that trauma and not any imperceptible threat at a large distance which the Saiyan hadn't even come into contact with. If that were so, Vegeta's first zenkai on Namek should have accelerated his power level to the state where it was at at the end of the arc. Instead, it was only enough for the damage suffered by Monster Zarbon, the one who first defeated Vegeta, to be mitigated and for him to be overpowered. This pattern seems largely consistent up until Freeza where the zenkais became inordinately large for no reason other than narrative convenience. If the previously mentioned mechanics applied, Goku's zenkai would have only been enough for him to surpass Vegeta while Vegeta would have only surpassed the Ginyu Force sans Ginyu. The manga doesn't insinuate that Piccolo knew the Multi-Form technique. Strictly going by the original material, it seems as though he dedicated most of the five years to developing the Special Beam Cannon. We also aren't given an exact amount of power progression he enjoyed prior to directly training Gohan. I suspect he acquired much of his benefits from working with Gohan who happened to rival the humans after just four months of actual training. My grievance lies in the methods which were used by mid-Dragon Ball characters to increase their power by only a comparably tiny amount being reinterpreted to allow for fighters who were excelling in the millions and having worked out in unearthly conditions to continue experiencing an impressive sum of returns. If this revitalised method is usable for Piccolo and Vegeta then I see no reason for it to not be applicable to other characters. Also, Vegeta was confirmed by Bulma to have been leaving for outside the city on his own to train. Do we have a percentage to put to the amount of power Gohan earned relative to Goku's overall total? I can't recall a quantifiable sum in which SSJB multiplied the user's power or what the disparity was between Mystic Gohan and Goku (post-god ritual) without SSJB. And since we're on the subject of other characters rapidly ascending in power, SSJG Vegetto was already confirmed to have surpassed Beerus in the manga. The anime's rendition is debatable but I wouldn't have any qualms with a confirmation of Vegetto having surpassed Beerus as well. Concerning Gohan - his potential and capacity for rapid growth was already something to behold back at the beginning of Z when his power was stated by Raditz to exceed Goku's, with no training under his belt at the time. He later goes on to surpass everyone at the Cell Games when previously he was classified under the same banner as the humans. Following this, his potential unlock by Elder Kaioshin raises his strength to astronomical heights for an unfused character by raising it hundreds, if not thousands of times over (assuming the SEG's multipliers are in any way applicable). Does Piccolo's short training session with him seem far-fetched? Yes, but I would like to believe Gohan tapped into a reservoir of power that had gone unused as it was expanding following the Buu arc. I didn't say that the increases were logical, only that they should be applicable to others. If you want a justification for the U6 Saiyans, I suppose you could attribute Cabba's power to being a result from working alongside a "mutant" such as Frost - the U6 counterpart to Freeza. |
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| superperfectnerd | Jul 18 2017, 09:54 PM Post #29 |
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How do you explain base Black =< ssj3 Goku < ssjb Goku =< ssjr Black without two bases?
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jul 18 2017, 09:55 PM.
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| Thiln | Jul 18 2017, 10:10 PM Post #30 |
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Not sure how much validity there is to the argument, but the difference between SSJB and SSJR is that the latter is derived from the user being considered physiologically deistic, not just in terms of their Ki. Is it possible this status could have granted an additional increase of power relative to what SSJB offers?
Edited by Thiln, Jul 18 2017, 10:10 PM.
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