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- Power creep in dbz
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| Power creep in dbz | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 17 2017, 04:36 AM (955 Views) | |
| + Ssj3vegito96 | Jul 17 2017, 04:36 AM Post #1 |
 
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In your opinion, how was the power creep in Z? I thought it was ok. The characters did get massively stronger every saga making the previous look weak but it was with good reason; they trained very hard, consistently, and were having to overcome bigger and bigger challenges It was also never a abrupt and ridiculous jumps in power. It was always gradual The only time I think it was a bit silly was half way through the buu saga when the power levels skyrocketed with gotenks, gohan, and super buu. It's not that big of a deal to me though What do you think? Do you think the characters got too powerful too fast at any point in the series? |
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| + Son-Goku | Jul 17 2017, 02:14 PM Post #2 |
孫悟空
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Too inconsistent for me. Human gains should be smaller than saiyans, yet at the beginning of the series they were bigger. For instance the Z-Fighters trained for almost 1 year with Kami and Goku trained 3 years with Kami, yet the Z-Fighters got way way more of a boost. |
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| Dankness Lava | Jul 17 2017, 06:13 PM Post #3 |
Dankness Forever
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There were plenty of insane jumps in power. |
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| Vance | Jul 17 2017, 09:34 PM Post #4 |
 
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Goku's Zenkai during the Frieza arc were ridiculous, not only absolute value (~9000 --> 90000 --> 3000000 --> 150000000 in a few days) but in terms of percentage as well. It's even more nonsensical when you compare his gains to Vegeta, a Saiyan elite with much more combat experience. Vegeta received far more brutal beatings than Goku, going to the brink of death several times throughout Namek, and yet his gains were vastly lower in percentage than Goku's, whose biggest beating (as Ginyu) wasn't even all that bad. He got punched in the stomach a few times and tossed to the floor, apparently that warrants a Zenkai of nearly x34 (almost SSJ level). Meanwhile, Vegeta nearly being murdered by Zarbon brings him from 24,000~ to 30,000 at best. Perhaps most bothersome is that Goku's speech about hard work and dedication allowing even a low-class Saiyan to beat an elite is now invalidated, and replaced by this "Goku is wonderful" Mary Sue-esque trope that has continued even now in Dragonball Super. Goku doesn't have to work to be stronger than Vegeta anymore, he simply is because the plot demands it. |
| "A good fighter knows his mental and physical limitations, but a great fighter will figure his way around them" | |
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| + Pyrus | Jul 17 2017, 11:00 PM Post #5 |
 
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I don't think the power creep was all that bad overall. Power creep entails newer additions completely outstripping older concepts and rendering them obsolete/useless – if I'm understanding this TV Tropes excerpt correctly. With that in mind, the Boo arc should qualify as the worst offender. Super Saiyan 2 was an amazing feat achieved by Gohan in the previous arc, but it was rendered totally useless against Majin Boo (who I'll get into shortly) upon his introduction. What did Goku whip out next? Super Saiyan 3. That lasted for about one chapter, and then Fusion was introduced. But we couldn't stop there. Gohan needed to do something to catch up so he got his power unlocked after sitting on his a*** for 24 hours. Then Toriyama decided he had to one-up Toei and give us the Potara earrings, an even better method of merging (up until Super, anyway). So we went from Super Saiyan 2, to Super Saiyan 3, to Fusion Dance, to a magical power unlock, to Potara fusion, but even that wasn't the end of it. Majin Boo himself was the biggest power creep in Z. He became a lot stronger by eating himself, then decided he would just absorb anybody stronger than him, which in effect made all the other plot devices moot because they couldn't counter that; plus, he had even better regeneration than Cell. Majin Boo encompassed all of the levels of Super Saiyan known at the time. The Freeza arc wasn't that bad in comparison IMO. Zenkais boosted the power levels to ridiculous heights relatively-speaking, but Freeza's transformations and Super Saiyan were the only really new additions to the lore. I guess you could also count Namekian fusion. Edited by Pyrus, Jul 17 2017, 11:01 PM.
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Jul 18 2017, 01:28 AM Post #6 |
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Honestly people like to b*** about the power jumps in later arcs but never the Frieza arc. Goku was at 400 in the BOZ and in less than a year he fights Frieza and has a power level of 150 million. Even from SSJ3 to SSG I wouldn't say his power leap was nearly as substantial |
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Jul 19 2017, 12:44 AM Post #7 |
魔王子
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I'd say it's pretty bad. The series made good use of the non-Earthling side characters after the Freeza saga, I'd say, but there's no denying the power creep in the Freeza saga limited what could be done afterward. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Jul 19 2017, 03:24 AM Post #8 |
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Do you guys think the power creep, however good or bad, is warranted? I think it is. Yeah goku went through a lot in the saiyan and namek saga but he still pushed himself harder and harder throughout the series mentally and physically right? Practicing sustaining super saiyan while in the time chamber had to be really punishing mentally and physically The series is full of power creep now that I think about it but I think it's warranted and fits well with the story of goku always pushing himself harder to reach new heights that nobody thought imaginable |
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| Vance | Jul 19 2017, 06:40 PM Post #9 |
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Power-creeps aren't exclusive to DBZ; hell, the concept of the protagonist receiving massive boost to their abilities, whether it be in terms of power, intellect, etc... is a trope that's used in almost all literary mediums. The issue I, and many others, have with power-creeps in DBZ is that there were attempts to provide in-universe explanations for them (i.e. power-levels, Zenkai, training, transformations). When an author introduces these concepts, it's expected that he respect their presence. Clearly, though, Toriyama stopped caring about these things long ago, with power levels and transformations no longer meaning much anymore. The common argument to defend this is that "It's just a show" and that unrealistic power-creeps are to be expected in a show where alien monkeys protect the Earth, and while that's all good and true, there comes a point where you have to have SOME sense of realism, even in a fictional story. I can accept that Goku is an alien monkey whose hair turns gold, but I can't really buy that Goku went from a power level of ~8,000 to 3,000,000 over the course of a few days, particularly due to the fact that not only is it unrealistic from an in-universe perspective (Goku's Zenkai was 33x after getting roughed up by Vegeta, a ridiculous magnitude when comparing to the noticeably smaller ones he'd received in the past and the ones Vegeta received, despite the latter literally being to the brink of death several times on Namek) but also because it goes against the entirety of Goku's speech regarding how hard work can overcome natural talent. It's a literary flaw no matter how you look at it. |
| "A good fighter knows his mental and physical limitations, but a great fighter will figure his way around them" | |
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| + Kyouks | Jul 20 2017, 08:44 AM Post #10 |
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"Warranted" in the sense that Toriyama often wrote himself into a corner and needed a way out, yeah. You say "however good or bad" but seem to be trying to justify the power creep as being good (reasoning that it works in the context of the story). Goku didn't really go through a whole lot in the Namek arc, Super Saiyan transformation aside. He received the largest zenkai in the series in order to fight Freeza simply because Toriyama needed him to -- Vegeta's multiple zenkais combined don't even compare (the prince was not destined to slay the king, unfortunately). Zenkais in general became a tool to force power progression in an environment where power-ups were otherwise out of place in that arc (in addition to Guru's sensual touching and Piccolo eating Nail), seeing as how no one really had any time or place to train. It's definitely a hell of a lot worse in later arcs though. While the massive zenkais and Super Saiyan officially phased out the humans for good, the introduction of Super Saiyan 2 and its quick dismissal (also RIP the only non-Saiyan who managed to stay relevant in spite of Super Saiyan) and the immediate subsequent introduction of Super Saiyan 3 and its quick dismissal were just ridiculous. |
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| Goddess Ultimecia | Jul 20 2017, 01:18 PM Post #11 |
 
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Let's see... Immediately we're shown an alien threat that, on a number basis, is 4-5x stronger than Goku and Piccolo, who went through the entirety of dragonball and what was required to get to the point that got them to there. Then we're shown two other threats from the same race, One anywhere from 3-7x stronger than Raditz, and another one that's 15x or so stronger than Raditz. The Namek Arc atleast at the beginning had a relatively okay-ish scale... that was until Goku came along lmao. Then we have someone go from 9000, to 90,000, to 3,000,000 and then added a transformation that brought him up to 150,000,000. The power creep was real hooooly shiet. The Android Arc and Cell arc didn't have numbers, so we have to rely on more intangible concepts. Such as improvements upon the super saiyan form with grades, the a*** kicking super saiyans received in the beginning, and then outclassed those ass-kickers, and then the introduction of SSJ2. And then you get the Boo arc... ohhhh boy. Dormant Power unlocks abundant, random new SSJ3 transformation out of nowhere. Then fusion out of nowhere. Then another dormant power unlock, then another fusion... The scale was so bad in the Boo arc that they required plot devices to get past their plot devices that added plot devices to their plot devices. |
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| Bad User | Jul 23 2017, 02:09 PM Post #12 |
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Yes. Power creep. Yes. I think that's what really divides us DB fans into two big categories (and other minor ones, don't mind me): the ones impressed by those fireworks (wow look at that transformatoin lol the power such great wow), who probably take it light-heartedly or for the lolz, and the I think the reasons why the powers became somehow plot-induced and forced are: 1. introduction of power levels, 2. throwing in overpowered enemies, 3. overpowering Saiyans. 1. Before power levels became a thing, there were other things relevant to a battle. Even though you could still sense that some characters had more raw power than the others, there were technique, strategy, finding weak spots and stuff. Remember, say, Tao vs kid Goku? Who even gave a s**t what power levels they could have? Tao had the higher ground because he was more powerful than Goku and also more experienced. But then, in order to defeat him, Goku climbed Korin tower (which gave him extra physical strength) and also learned from Korin the art of sensing breath (which gave him extra agility in combat). Then, even if Tao might still have been stronger than Goku (I don't remember very well, sorry), Goku's new abilities were prevalent. Now take the same conflict and insert it in late DBZ and forth. Tao almost defeats Goku, then Goku be like 'wtf is this s**t ya know what SSJ!! bye'. I'm not saying that the previous plot is perfect either, but the power growths and character development had more background and sense of realism to them. Now it feels like if they want to make Oolong strong enough to kill Super Buu, they assign him a power level, no matter how ridiculous, then Oolong claps his b*ttcheeks and Buu dies. Because plot. 2. The power gap between the last enemy and the next enemy is too damn big. We got it, Saiyans were very powerful. But them comes Frieza who is so powerful she could destroy a planetful of them. But there comes Cell who could swallow Frieza just like that. And so on, and so forth. Characters like Roshi or Yamcha became mud. The other non-Saiyan fighters could barely stand up to the Saiyans and Frieza and her gang (of course Goku must always show up, even from the dead, to take out the trash), but starting from Cell saga they became really useless. There's nothing they can do anymore. Their main roles are either punching bags, or surprised and mesmerized spectators, or even baby-sitters (see Piccolo). No matter how much they train, they'll never be good enough (Tien, Krillin, Piccolo, 18). That's why all the shine is compressed and given to only a few characters. 3. So we give the Saiyans power creep to keep up with enemies' power creep. First of all, it's really a miracle how in all the Saiyan civilization, there was no one in the past 1000 years who could catch a glimpse of a SSJ. I mean, there must have been powerful and talented ones, or faced difficult battles, or in a near-death situations. The biggest joy for them was to transform into giant monkeys. But then, the remaining Saiyans on Earth, in a matter of years, got SSJ 1, 2, 3, 53453 etc. All of them. And not only that. Goku, who is the epithome of power creeps, got his first SSJ in his late twenties, and in a really desperate manner; then spent several months trying to master it. Vegeta, who is the prince of all Saiyans!!!, got his first SSJ in his ?thirties? after reaaally hard work and struggle. Gohan, who was naturally gifted, got it at 9/10/11 after training several months for it. But then Goten and Trunks had it before 7 like a child's play. Yay. And while I understand the theory that they were conceived when their dads were SSJ (thus delivering SSJ genes), I can't put my finger on how Goku got the one and only SSJ3 in his thirties, while Gotenks barfed it just like that. And not in any manner, but as if he already knew that he can go on with his SSJs... One word: power creep (Wait...) It even makes all Goku's and Vegeta's hard work and training seem like nothing and don't matter at all, they can just have little children teaching them. Children who have no fighting experience whatsoever. Even sucks for Piccolo, because he spent his entire life training and working, just to be babysitting a bratty power-creeped Saiyan baby now. If they wouldn't make the enemies absurdly powerful each time a new one appears, and wouldn't give endless power and potential to Saiyans, and have the non-S. fighters work more and grow gradually and evenly with the Saiyans, there wouldn't be any need for power creeps anymore. And keep the hard-work and strategy institutions, instead of blasts after blasts, infinite power boosts, tricks and last-minute aces pulled up the sleeves. Buu saga was mind-blowing so far. Starting Super soon. Hope it gets better. But that's just my humble opinion don't mind me lol bye |
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