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| Greatest Fighter in Dragon Ball | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 25 2017, 08:04 PM (1,041 Views) | |
| lazerbem | Jul 1 2017, 07:56 PM Post #16 |
 
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By what measure?
A lot of fancy talk about it, he didn't really show it
Absolute Lightning, Barrier of Light, Blades of Judgment, Holy Wrath, Black Power Ball, and psychokinesis are all absolutely useless. They didn't work against people far, far weaker than him. His materialization was used to just throw metal, gigantification made him slow, and space transeference was used in rather ineffective ways.
Pretty well I think given how Goku was doing just fine against Tien when their powers were close. It doesn't help matters either that the Saiyans know quite a few of the same techniques too. Solar Flare and Kienzan have both been copied at a glance. |
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| Thiln | Jul 1 2017, 08:27 PM Post #17 |
 
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Glancing back over their 22nd tournament fight, I noticed how Goku seemed to make apt usage of his tail's flexibility for manouvres and as a usable weapon. He also exploited an outside resource, Roshi's sunglasses, to protect his eyes from the Taiyoken. Quite a number of circumstances there allowed for Goku to defend against Tien when it otherwise may not have been possible. Although, I will concede the Crane Hermit employing Chaozu to grant Tien the opportunity to deal some unobstructed blows on Goku. Only the first segment of the 23rd tournament saw both Goku and Tien remaining even with each other before heightening their power and speed. The end of it was inconclusive, albeit Goku seemed to have the advantage by having dealt more attacks and with retaining more stamina (the latter attributable to his greater power). We didn't see any of the techniques used from the 22nd tournament, though. Where was the Shiyoken or Dodonpa? Goku may be familiar with those techniques but it's not like he tried to combat them under the different circumstances that were apparent in the 23rd tournament with his tail gone (mostly applicable to the Shiyoken, though). Mimicry is very much accomplishable by non-Saiyans. How do you think Tien learned the Kamehameha? That shouldn't really be an advantage for Goku alone. Edited by Thiln, Jul 1 2017, 08:55 PM.
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| lazerbem | Jul 1 2017, 08:41 PM Post #18 |
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If Krillin is praised for making plans against people, then Goku ought to have the same praise leveled at him. Especially when he's been just as if not more creative than Krillin in that regard. Mimicry isn't an advantage for Saiyans alone but it does speak to the effectiveness of a move when mimicers don't even bother to use it. See the Kienzan being absolutely unusable whenever anyone attempts to whip it out. |
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| Thiln | Jul 1 2017, 09:29 PM Post #19 |
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Against overwhelming odds, though? Krillin has been forced to improvise just on principle for being weaker than his opponents usually. Goku can be adaptable and strategic, but more often than not he defeats his opponents just by having overwhelming strength and speed. Those rare occasions like with the controllable Kamehameha blast (a feat replicated by Krillin anyway), Power Pole accelerated genal hit against King Piccolo, the Kamehameha torpedo diversion, or Instant Transmission Kamehameha feint almost never were involved against superior opponents at the time. Krillin arguably exhibited more trickery and out-of-the-box thinking against Goku than vice versa during their 22nd tournament; this happening when Krillin was uninformed about his opponent having overcome their tail weakness. Goku apparently felt it necessary to increase his power rather than outmanouvre Krillin at equal levels. These characters neglect to use certain abilities because it might otherwise lead to a different outcome than the one Toriyama was hoping for, I feel. It's like asking why Krillin doesn't always use Taioken and Kienzan combination. |
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| lazerbem | Jul 2 2017, 01:40 AM Post #20 |
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Yes. Goku did a tail grab against Raditz, he Solar Flared Vegeta, he kicked up a cloud of dust in order to block Freeza's line of sight, he kited Golden Freeza, and he predicted Hit would kill him and fired a ki blast upward as insurance among the other things you mentioned. It's more than Krillin's ever done, in all truth. Krillin and Tien's planning isn't really any better than Goku's. |
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| Thiln | Jul 2 2017, 03:05 AM Post #21 |
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The tail grabbing action is a pretty rudimentary strategy, though. Just about everyone has attempted or thought of attempting it at some point in the manga - Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, Piccolo, Grandpa Gohan, and Pilaf. Krillin's attempted exploitation of it is still arguably a superior feat of manouvrability as he was forced to improvise with a feint before shifting around to clutch it during a 1 vs 1 setting with his opponent right in front of him. Goku had the advantage of Raditz's gaze being fixated on Piccolo. He was also fairly close-by in one of the most practicable spots one could have asked for. The Taiyoken manouvre I will grant. It's one of the few occasions where that technique has been used in conjunction with an attempted offensive tactic in the manga. As for the spurt of realisation generated by Freeza's seeming inability to register energy signatures in debris - I've scoured the manga and I can't find this scene anyway. It's actually a positive for Goku as he came to the conclusion on his own without any need for visual proof by Freeza. I don't really follow the Super anime stringently enough to know where those latter two scenes are located. Could you provide an exact image or time in a video for when they take place, please? This debate is mostly revolving around Krillin. Tien isn't so much of an inherent strategist as he is a skilled jack-of-all-trades with a myriad of abilities that could potentially grant him the advantage in combat if they were being used to their fullest capacity. Edited by Thiln, Jul 2 2017, 03:06 AM.
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| lazerbem | Jul 2 2017, 03:09 AM Post #22 |
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Freeza's got death saucers on Goku's tail and then Goku blasts the ground in front of him. Freeza freaks out and jumps upward, losing sight and control of his death saucers consequently Kiting Golden Freeza is in the second to last episode of the arc, Goku just flies from him to stall for time. It's also in ROF. With Hit, it's in the filler episode fight they have. Hit kills Goku with a heart shot, but Goku had anticipated that and fired a ki blast upward earlier, letting it land on him to revive him a bit later. Can't link since on mobile What are Krillin's best showings then? None exceed Goku's. Tien using all his abilities to the fullest would be a good point if he ever did, but he doesn't. |
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| Thiln | Jul 2 2017, 04:14 AM Post #23 |
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So you were referring to Super Saiyan Goku vs Freeza? A somewhat similar feat occurred back during the Red Ribbon Army arc when Krillin, pitted against Blue, used a Zanzouken feint to throw Blue off and attack him from above. Again, the most prominent difference between these two respective tactics is the conflicting power disparities. Between Goku and Freeza, the former had access to Super Saiyan and his opponent's stamina had already deteriorated to the point he wasn't putting up much of a fight. The speed and manouevrability of the the projectiles would have been dictated by Freeza's slackening perception and arm movements. Krillin successfully improvised against an opponent who was clearly stronger than himself. Oh, now I remember. Stalling your opponent long enough for them to drain their reserves is a pretty basic strategy, though. #18 of all people thought to use it against Vegeta. But she was still technically more powerful than him, I'll grant. Point taken on the Hit evidence. Krillin has a pension for exploiting weaknesses. From preying upon Goku's naivete to exposing Bacterian to a foreign rancid smell which compelled him into forfeiting to alluring Jackie Chun with women's undergarments to confusing Chaozu with mathematics and ect. Goku's "out of the box" tactics can mostly be characterised as sleight of hands involving Ki blasts. Many of which have comparable examples in Krillin's efforts. If you want to cite Super then look no more towards Krillin's fights against Gohan and Goku, both vastly superior in strength. For someone so much weaker, he performed relatively well by using the non-power related abilities of his in the Kienzan and Taiyoken. Since you're citing Super then we should also be factoring Tien's recent usage of things like the Shiyoken, a power we hadn't seen from him since the middle of the original Dragon Ball. |
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| lazerbem | Jul 2 2017, 04:36 AM Post #24 |
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Of course come the actual tournament, both Tien and Krillin just revert to Solar Flare and Kienzan. Theoretically speaking, Krillin and Tien could win if they used their skills like you say. But they just don't. It's OOC to make it so, just as much as it would be to have Goku abuse IT non-stop and cream anyone he faces. |
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| + PocketGoggu | Jul 3 2017, 11:45 PM Post #25 |
Royal Guard.
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Out of every fighter in Dragon Ball who'd be the strongest? My money's on either the Angels or The Grand Priest. Considering that Whis can't land a hit on him (I do attribute that to the gargantuan power differences between the two of them), but even then Whis holds his father with alot of respect as well. There's also the G.O.D's with their Hakai's, but I'm certain that the Angels, and Zeno have ways to overcome it. But, in the end Merged Zamasu wins with his cheap immortality, Garlic Jr as well. |
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Noice sig from Sushi Nyah
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| + Solid Snake | Jul 4 2017, 01:44 AM Post #26 |
滅Are you frightened?
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No offense but just cause Garlic Jr. has immortality doesn't make him the most skilled at all. In general: 1) Merged Zamasu 2) Omega Shenron 3) Super Saiyan Rosé Goku "Black" 4) Super Buu (Gohan absorbed) 5) Future Zamasu 6) Nouva Shenron 7) Super Jamemba 8) Super Perfect Cell 9) Golden Frieza 10) King Piccolo My top 10 for most skilled villains at equal levels. |
 Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| + PocketGoggu | Jul 4 2017, 01:53 AM Post #27 |
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Royal Guard.
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Oh, no I'm not referring to Garlic Juinor as the most skilled. I'm not even referring to Merged Zamasu as the most skilled. They win, simply because they're immortal. But, giving it more thought I do suppose they'd be killed by the G.O.D's. |
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Noice sig from Sushi Nyah
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