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| Trans question | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 1 2017, 09:15 PM (3,202 Views) | |
| * Mitas | Aug 11 2017, 09:37 AM Post #31 |
It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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I didn't answer the question because I thought I made it clear that I don't believe it's something that needs to be 'reavealed', sorry if it wasn't clear. Like I said, for me it's revealed when you look at a person. If you're attracted to them, then being unattracted to them because of their specific heritage is bigotry/xenophobia.
I don't really get how this extends on what you said before. Like I said, I wouldn't put the blame on the rape victim or the assault victim. I'm not in control of what other people think or react so there's not much I can say on that. All I can say is that I believe a person has a right to be aggrieved if they discover a person is trans after, say, a year. Or even 6 months+. If it hasn't come up in conversation by that point, then it needs to be divulged by the person with the knowledge.
No. Again, I haven't said that: 'I specifically said people shouldn't have to make it the first thing they say.' 'and like I said, I don't exactly think people should have to broadcast their personal stuff as a sort of name tag' 'I don't think that people should have to disclose something like that within the first date, but if it develops into multiple dates then I think it's something that should definitely be told to the other party involved.' All quotes from my own posts. I get that I didn't give a specific time limit, but all relationships aren't equal. Some people date regularly over a few weeks, some are slower to turn 'serious'. I said 6 months above, but it really depends on the relationship. Like I've said, race or heritage doesn't need to be divulged. Political and religious beliefs are more likely to come up in regular conversation as you get to know the person, but it's also a personality clash. I don't think people should have to sit and divulge their entire personality, it's something that happens as you get to know somebody and if you don't like them, you stop seeing them. But trans, or mental health, are baggage. As is infertility. That sounds harsh, but it's true. To me, there's a distinct difference between personality and personal choice e.g. belief systems, and baggage (mostly of a medical nature) and I believe people's baggage needs to be divulged before entering into a serious relationship.
In that situation, yes, they should have told them. BUT not being told is not an excuse for any violence or abuse that follows. I am not, and have not at any point, said that the person who retained the information is at fault for any violence that results from that. They are wrong to have retained it in my eyes, as I have expressed numerous times, but they do not deserve violence from it. Yes there is a possibility of a violent reaction, but there's a possibility of a violent reaction in many instances of life. If we tailored everything around the possibility of violence, we wouldn't leave the house at night, or get into any relationship, or talk to people. The thing is, most people are not a*****, so we shouldn't create rules assuming everyone is. Just because somebody has an over-the-top and bad reaction to something, doesn't mean their initial feeling isn't a justified one. It just means that their reaction to it was wrong. Sure, people have a right to be afraid of that violence and I understand that fear would stop somebody from divulging the information, but it doesn't make it right to do so. At least in my eyes. |
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Aug 11 2017, 12:14 PM Post #32 |
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Are we really comparing a person's ethnicity to being trans? As Mitas has said, race can be determined by looking. It factors into immediate attraction, which would be a deal-breaker before the date even begins. If someone has a bigoted vendetta against a very specific ethnicity of people, like Jewish people, they're in the extreme minority, because I don't know or hear about too many people who are like that. And even if they do have a vendetta against Jewish people, wouldn't something like that be revealed by their partner fairly early on? If it's something even more obscure like Pacific Islanders, then I wouldn't use it as an argument, because that would be incredibly rare and not even worth bringing up in this thread. The trans thing really has nothing to do with initial attraction and can be very hard to tell. Why would you even think to ask a person if they have a penis? If you truly suspect that they might be trans, then sure, it might be wise to ask, but there are certain situations when you really can't tell, and yes, it is 100% the transperson's responsibility to divulge that information before entering a serious relationship with someone. To not do so is disingenuous. I'd hate to get into slippery territory, but I also highly doubt that revealing that you're trans would get you beaten or killed on a date in public. I'm never going to blame a victim for violence, but avoiding going to a person's home and not meeting in a secluded area before telling them are safer ways of approaching the situation. It's the same way that women are at risk for date rape. Keep dates limited to a safe, public location and we would rarely see stories like this in the first place. Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Aug 11 2017, 01:19 PM.
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| + Sandy Shore | Aug 11 2017, 01:37 PM Post #33 |
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Edited by Sandy Shore, Nov 7 2017, 08:36 AM.
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Aug 11 2017, 02:06 PM Post #34 |
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I should have mentioned this in my post as well. I may not be transgender myself, but that doesn't negate my argument (or Mitas', or anyone else's), nor does that mean that we are inherently bigoted toward the trans community simply because we aren't a part of it. I'm a part of the LGBT community myself, but if I found out several months or even years into a serious relationship that my partner was trans and had been hiding it from me, I would leave them--not because I'm bigoted at all, but because withholding that information is so disingenuous, and I value being up-front and honest from the get-go. I think that there are many people who feel the same, and that can stir up even more anger and resentment when such information is never revealed or revealed too late. It is 100% the trans individual's responsibility to disclose such a thing, and I don't like that you're placing the blame on their potential partners when they may not have any reason to ask at all. It just makes no sense. You're also painting the words "victim" on every single trans person, which is both wrong and potentially insulting. Trans individuals are not always the victim here. If a trans person hides that information for years, then finally reveals it and their partner reacts with anger and leaves them, the trans person is not a victim. |
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| Strawberry | Aug 11 2017, 03:49 PM Post #35 |
Chiaroscuro ♥
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Well, exactly. I stated I didn't necessarily think it was wrong or derogatory for other people to stop feeling attracted to someone once they find out they are transgender -- even if they couldn't tell a difference before. The point I brought up for discussion is that prejudice plays a factor in that instinctive reaction because I believe it does. If someone no longer feels attracted to a transgender person solely based on the knowledge their sex used to be different than what it currently is that still doesn't erase the fact that in present time their sex IS theoretically what they're attracted to, and if they couldn't tell a difference before gaining such knowledge that means they inevitably will draw prejudice from what society has culturally deemed acceptable and authentic regarding sex and gender into their instinctive reaction -- as well their own stance on the matter -- to decide whether or not they are comfortable with that position. They do so in a very unconscious and involuntary way because it IS primarily an instinctive mechanism, but that instinct IS deeply tied into concepts of beauty and attraction that are culturally produced and deeply-rooted in our psyche -- after all attraction isn't just a hormonal reaction to something pleasant, but a moving concept volatile to external cultural factors to an extent as well. I deeply believe that the more we culturally accept transgender people in a transversally open way across society, the more likely people will be to feeling less turned off in a sexual scenario where the only real difference for them is knowing their partner wasn't born with the sex they have today. |
  ♪ ♥ ♫ Across The Universe
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| + Steve | Aug 11 2017, 04:08 PM Post #36 |
Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Yeah, on this front I believe honesty is definitely the way to go. Exercise caution, of course but still be honest. Sure, trans people are going to get dumped for it but if even 1% of people they date give them a chance and things go well then that just adds to the list of people who can confidently say "I slept with a trans person and I didn't catch the gay...maybe trans people aren't demons?" Surely that's more preferable to building up the idea that trans people are going to string you along and drop that on you later, that just gives certain types of people so much ammunition towards saying trans people are bad. There's plenty open minded people out there who would give it a go but if they have a bad experience their thoughts on the matter may become twisted. It's easier to close minds than open them. |
 Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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Aug 11 2017, 04:12 PM Post #37 |
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I completely agree that a person's rejection of a trans person could be due in part to some form of prejudice. For example, if someone can't tell at all that a person is trans and rejects them after finding that out without giving the relationship any thought at all, one could assume that person is prejudiced against trans people. However, that isn't always how these situations pan out. I don't feel like I have any prejudice towards trans people at all. I would be willing to date a trans individual if they were the right person for me and I was attracted to them; however, I just can't guarantee that I would still be attracted to them after seeing what's downstairs, and I don't think that's because of any prejudice caused by the "beauty industry" or what's socially acceptable. You can't just tell a person, "You must be attracted to this penis, and if you don't like it, you're prejudiced against me." That isn't how it works. It's like saying, "You must be attracted to my nose even though it isn't what you prefer looking at." I probably wouldn't be attracted to a guy with a huge honking nose because I'm very unattracted to that, and I probably wouldn't be attracted to a fake penis or vagina (not because they're "fake") but because I've seen what they look like, and I don't think I would be into that. I could try to force a relationship with someone I'm not attracted to, but that never works out very well. I again agree that as more time passes, the more willing people will be to accept the trans community even in the dating world, but even at that point you still can't force attraction. Another example is this new body positivity movement. I have no ill will toward overweight people. I don't feel any prejudice toward them at all. But you can't force me to be attracted to that because I'm just not. |
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| Strawberry | Aug 11 2017, 04:25 PM Post #38 |
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Chiaroscuro ♥
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Sure, but that's different. That's you hypothetically not being able to feel attracted to what's down there based on how it looks or feels and (I'd imagine) how it ultimately compares to other people you've been intimate with. Fair game, really. I was mostly replying to Sandy Shore when they say the thought of genitals being altered plays a huge factor in someone's perception and that it isn't necessarily just about how something feels or looks, which again, I'm not denying happens because I know it does, I'm just saying something like that derives a lot from prejudice and that the same prejudice can (and hopefully will) be deconstructed culturally over time to facilitate a more open and accepting mindset towards transsexuality. |
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| + Sandy Shore | Aug 11 2017, 10:50 PM Post #39 |
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Edited by Sandy Shore, Nov 7 2017, 08:31 AM.
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| Strawberry | Aug 12 2017, 12:11 AM Post #40 |
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Chiaroscuro ♥
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I’m not sure if I just didn’t word myself correctly there, but you seem to have understood from my post that I was implying the guy only finds out about his partner being a transwoman after they’ve had sex, and that somehow that proved a point that if he enjoyed the sex that must mean he necessarily needs to be okay with the situation, subsequently placing the blame on the guy if he feels deceived and decides to reject dating the transwoman when she does disclose that she’s transgender. Is that it? Because that’s not what I meant. When I said he theoretically was still attracted to her sex, I meant her genital area and not the actual act of sex. It’s basically to paint a hypothetical scenario where the only reason the guy could have for not feeling attracted to the transwoman is the knowledge that her genital area had been surgically altered to look like a vagina. Which isn’t to say he has been deceived into having sex with her first and only then found out about it -- let’s just say he’s seen her naked before if that simplifies the example. I believe in full disclosure and transparency when it comes to intimacy, and that includes transgender people being upfront about who they are before engaging in sexual activity with a partner. What we actually don’t seem to agree on is the notion that prejudice helps shaping feelings of attraction. Because I believe it does, whether that be for transgender people, people with a different ethnicity, body shape, and so on. To put things in a more mundane perspective. I believe that when transgender people start being less vilified in the way society understands them on a broader level, people will be more likely to feel less disgusted by the idea of someone having their sex changed, and will likely be more open to being intimate with someone whose genitals look and feel like the sex they’re attracted to -- even if technically they've been altered to look that way. In a similar vein, I also believe that if we were to give a more equal representation of fat people within normalized standards of beauty, more people would feel inclined to feel attracted to them and there would be less of a discrepancy in the number of people who favor a specific body shape over the other. I’m not trying to say anybody is wrong or trying to actively discriminate against others for staying true to their preferences, I am however saying those preferences are intertwined with cultural aspects, one of which being prejudice installed in society and deeply ingrained in our heads. This is all imo, of course. Feel free to disagree. Also don’t worry about me feeling attacked or thinking you’re trying to paint me in a negative light. You're not coming across that way at all. |
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| + Steve | Aug 12 2017, 11:36 AM Post #41 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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I agree there that it will become less of a "disgusting" thing to people but I do wonder how far it will really go in that direction. Unless surgeries become absolutely flawless and even include a womb, uterus etc etc for a transwoman and actual working testicles for a trans man, there's always going to be the issue of not being able to make a baby with them. Especially considering those would likely be expensive procedures. And I think people are probably always going to prefer the au naturale way, for the next few hundred years at least. Personally nothing could change my mind over dating someone that I can't have what I deem to be a future with, children. Perhaps if other options weren't so complicated and expensive, such as surrogacy. |
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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Aug 12 2017, 07:12 PM Post #42 |
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I just wanted to add that this doesn't necessarily have to do with attraction either. Would it be bigoted of me to say that I may not date a trans person because I just don't want to deal with it? Not that the struggle they are going through is wrong at all. I just may not feel comfortable dating someone that I don't understand, or going through hormone therapy, sex reassignment surgery, etc. with them. I may be perfectly fine dating a trans man (presenting as a man with a vagina) because I like both; however, dealing with them injecting hormones, going through surgery to get a penis (which I may be grossed out by), etc. may not be for me, and that's my preference as well, isn't it? I wouldn't date someone with serious depression issues either, and that is also a preference. Not that depression is wrong either, but I suffer from anxiety myself and know how miserable it can be being with someone even more depressed and anxious than myself. We just don't match up well. Just adding another angle here. Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Aug 12 2017, 07:13 PM.
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| + Steve | Aug 12 2017, 10:21 PM Post #43 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Yeah I definitely agree there, it's a pretty big undertaking if you really think about it. It'd be a hassle to have to battle with potentially your family and theirs if either side is not very accepting of the whole thing, then your friends on top of that who might think you're weird for it. I don't see how it's entirely unfair for someone to not want to deal with that, a relationship has to be appealing to both people and I highly doubt many people would be happy to ditch their family or friends over a trans person they've been on a few dates with, who they didn't know was trans until then. Really the only reason anyone would do that is if they had a superbly strong connection with the person, the whole "The one" shebang. Obviously that's not going to apply to all places but right now a lot, my family barely accept gay people nevermind trans folk who are practically unheard of here. It is really asking a lot and I don't think it's fair to call anyone a bad person for not being willing to deal with it. |
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| Cid | Aug 13 2017, 03:53 AM Post #44 |
Product of my environment
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I don't know, personally the idea of a post op trans person is just unpleasant to me. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against trans people, it's just personally the idea of genital reassignment surgery makes me squeamish. I can't speak for others, but I just can't do that. |
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| Cal | Aug 13 2017, 12:11 PM Post #45 |
I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!
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Of course not. You're assuming they have the same definition of gender and sex and an interchangeability that isn't guaranteed. If I were to ask someone if they're a man or a woman I would be asking based on their biology, not their personal self-identification.
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