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| Trans question | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 1 2017, 09:15 PM (3,203 Views) | |
| * Mitas | Aug 10 2017, 08:52 AM Post #16 |
It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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I can understand the fear of running up against those stigmas and stereotypes (and like I said, I don't exactly think people should have to broadcast their personal stuff as a sort of name tag), but why would you want to be friends with people that would take part in those stigmas and stereotypes? Your friends should be the people that don't put you in that difficult position, and if they do, well then they're not really the people you should consider friends (at least, in my opinion). |
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| NinjaSushiCreative | Aug 10 2017, 09:03 AM Post #17 |
 
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It's not that I hide it from friends, but I won't be like "Hi, I'm Alec. Also I'm trans and my penis is rubber, wanna see?" The way I see it is yes, I am trans but it doesn't define my personality so why would friends even need to know? Most of my friend do know though but it's something they learn like four/five months down the line when someone makes a trans joke and they're sat there like "ASDGHADF YOU'RE TRANS" Foe me, I've found it possibly the easiest way to remove those preconception people will have about trans people. I think I've mentioned here before that Sam realised I was trans a few weeks into our friendship, and his opinions on this as a cis man are actually something that I personally just love reading. He had misconceptions about if he could be attracted to someone that was trans and if anybody is in the discord they'll know how often he yells about my 'pretty face'. It's that I refuse to tell friends or that I hide being trans, it's just that I wont sit down and be like Hey! I'm trans! I'll wait for them to grow their opinions of me as a person based on my personality and interactions with them first. Sometimes people react badly, or there's really really insulting comments made but I just remember that those prejudices are something they've been taught by society and I'll do my best to teach them the realities of being trans and that it isn't a choice. If they're still a dick after all that I'll kick em to the pavement. Edited by NinjaSushiCreative, Aug 10 2017, 09:04 AM.
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| Tinny | Aug 10 2017, 01:01 PM Post #18 |
 
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"Hiding until the last moment?" What is that supposed to mean? Are they're supposed go around and make sure the first thing anyone knows is that they're trans? lying of course isn't okay, but... If you can't be bothered to so much as ask, why should they be required to reveal it independently? And yes, mainly because such a thing can be genuinely dangerous, either to your life with many people not accepting you, or in more extreme cases, your lover stabbing you. The culture in general has a historical tenancy to view trans as inherently dishonest as well. The idea that they trick men is less that and more people being pampered into thinking that trans have to go through the work of answering a question they're too lazy to ask themselves. You care, and so you should be the one to ask about that, that's reasonable isn't it? If someone can't bother to ask, why should they be told (its not even like this is awkward considering this may very well play into the relationship, I'd say it's entirely the straight person's fault in thks case if they don't all). I really don't like that phrase as it just speaks to the assumption that trans should have to make being trans the center of their life, that the regular straight person shouldn't have to ask anything like this, and that it's somehow the trans fault for not answering a question that is never asked, I realize you likely didn't mean it like that, but the general mindset that speaks to is something I felt the need to address. |
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| * Mitas | Aug 10 2017, 01:51 PM Post #19 |
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It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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Why would the non-trans person ask if somebody was trans? It's a rare enough thing that I don't think anybody would ever think to ask the question. |
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| Strawberry | Aug 10 2017, 03:19 PM Post #20 |
Chiaroscuro ♥
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Loving the honesty and transparency in this thread, specially from the personal testimonials of our transgender members. Thank you for your insight. I've been thinking about this for quite a while and I feel that in regards to people choosing not to date a transgender person/not feeling attracted to them that's something that can be comprehended in two parts. 1 - Cultural perspective 2 - Personal preference And I think the two are intrinsically intertwined in many tricky and complex ways. One thing I wanted to touch on and possibly leave up for discussion is my personal belief that somewhere along the cultural spectrum and perhaps even personal preference there IS prejudice involved. I don't think it's fair to remove the prejudice out of the equation altogether because I believe it exists on a very deep level that is sometimes hard to even gain total conscience of -- even for generally open-minded people who don't discriminate against anybody based on their gender. It's a complex matter with a lot of subtopics, but if a guy can't tell any difference at all when meeting a transgender woman and if she decides to be immediately honest with that guy and tell him she is transgender, him no longer feeling attracted to her has to derive from some level of prejudice in some capacity, imo. I'm not saying this is necessarily wrong or done in a clear derogatory way because I understand that it's part of an incredibly intricate web of thought that is ingrained in our cultural psyche, but I'd like to believe that in an ideal world transgender people could feel so entirely accepted as the gender they indentify as that if the person they're starting to date can't tell any difference about their physical appearance or behavior there should be no reason to have the attraction fade just because they've started off as the opposite gender. Again, this is more at surface level, because then for an actual relationship to develop there are a million different aspects that come into play and that could very fairly dictate the incompatibility of a non-transgender person dating a transgender woman or man, including personal preference, but also very complex topics like biological questions pertaining to reproduction, which understandably can be quite sensitive and difficult to discuss within the intimacy of a couple. |
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Aug 10 2017, 06:20 PM Post #21 |
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I don't think that's necessarily true. Initial attraction is based on outward appearances, sure, but what's between a person's legs factors into that as well. By claiming that a man has to still be attracted to this transwoman after she reveals that she's trans, you're basically saying that he's choosing his preferences, and that can quickly become a very dangerous position to hold. If he is attracted to her body and face and isn't attracted anymore once he learns that she has a penis, that isn't him being prejudiced--that just makes him a straight male. You can't force yourself to be attracted to certain body parts. If this transwoman called him a bigot because he broke up with her after she revealed that she had a penis, that's just wrong, and it's everything that the LGBT community has been fighting against. Sexuality is not a choice, and judging a man for not being attracted to a woman with a penis is more prejudiced than anything else. |
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| Strawberry | Aug 10 2017, 06:26 PM Post #22 |
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Chiaroscuro ♥
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I forgot to specify it, but in that specific example when I said the guy couldn't tell any difference, I meant post sex change surgery... so clothes off kinda deal. Which is also why I used the example of a transgender woman instead of a transgender man, because for trans men the medical procedures are far trickier in terms of final result. |
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| Tinny | Aug 10 2017, 08:41 PM Post #23 |
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Because they're interested in starting a relationship, or taking it deeper. While one could argue rarity, I recall the amount of people who are intersex being about 2% (around the same ballpark as redheads). And I feel this question is a bit of a "blame the victim" type of question anyway, as many have responded violently to the revelation of transness in situations. To get where I'm coming from, imagine you have a friend. This friend gets together with someone, maybe they have sex. Next week they are dead, stabbed more than a hundred times (This, while an extreme example does happen as linked here). The reason being, that they did not reveal before sex, that they had Ainu heritage (it's a really small minority in Japan. To get an idea how few there are, they make up about 0.000357142857% of the world population, for comparison, the trans population is about 0.3% of the United States). Would you say that they had any responsibility to reveal their heritage? What if this was their political party (maybe they're some strain of Anarchist-socialism, or conservative)? Or maybe their religion (Jewish or maybe Greek Paganist?) Would you be willing to say that they were even slightly at fault in this situation? Is being Transgender somehow different from race, religion, and politics? At what point would they be at fault in an altercation that arises from a lover finding out that they're [insert minority here]? While my example with the Ainu heritage is extreme, I would surprised if someone genuinely thought that they had some duty to wear their religion/political beliefs/race/gender on their sleeve. If the issue is having kids, then would you say that an infertile person needs to explain this before sex (regardless of any attempt at having kids)? They're a similarly small percentage of the population, and once again, do you think that the extreme responses (be it something as "comedic" as vomiting in a toilet, to yelling slurs and verbal abuse at them, to actual murder), is in any way brought upon themselves? I doubt anyone would say that it's a Semitic person's responsibility to tell someone they're Semitic to a lover because they might be anti-Semitic (or simply don't want to have sex with Semitic people). If you are someone who cares about infertility/race/religion/political positions/transgenders/etc. in a lover, it is your responsibility to ask, it is not their responsibility to tell someone who doesn't bother asking. It doesn't matter how small a population it is, if it's a big deal for you, you should ask, rather than thrusting the responsibility onto them. And while you could argue I'm putting a burden on a greater populace, I'd respond with that Ainu example I gave earlier, they're far smaller percentage of people (in the United States as well I imagine, they're not even .2% in Japan). If you care about not having sex with a certain group of people, it is your responsibility to find out if your prospective/current lover is part of that group, it is not their responsibility to anticipate that you're like that and tell you, it doesn't matter if they're trans, Ainu, Jewish, infertile, far leftist, etc. Also I realize this was fairly american centrist in terms of situations, but those were the first statistics of trans I had on hand, and regardless, I feel this argument is applicable outside of the United States in any case. Edited by Tinny, Aug 10 2017, 08:44 PM.
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| * Mitas | Aug 10 2017, 09:12 PM Post #24 |
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It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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I feel like you missed the point completely. Why would a person enter every relationship asking 'are you trans?'? It just doesn't make any sense to ask that question if you have nothing to base it on and it would never cross anybody's mind. 90% of the time they'll receive the answer 'no' and it will make for an awkward moment e.g. 'wait, you think I look like a girl/guy' or 'why would you ask that?'. The person who already knows the information, be that that they are infertile (and yes, that is something a person should disclose before entering a serious relationship) or trans, or any number of things, can obviously take the stance of 'well the other person should ask' because they know the information. But the person who doesn't know has literally nothing to go on, so why would the question cross their mind? Transgender is not the same as race (because you see race with your own eyes), or political or religious beliefs (because that should come up in conversation as you get to know each other without much prompting). Infertility is something I do feel should be disclosed by the person, but it's also something that naturally comes up in a relationship because the end goal is often to have kids. Trans really has no reason to ever be brought up by the other person and isn't comparable in my eyes, at least to race and political or religious beliefs (not heritage/race because in my eyes the only reason that plays into it is racism or bigotry if you're already attracted to them - it's not the same as trans, before you ask, because there are certain confusions introduced when somebody used to be the sex that you aren't attracted to). Btw, yes all those above are valid reasons for somebody not to want to be in a relationship with somebody. Anything is a valid reason as long as you're civil about it. Also, at what point did I ever say that the person disclosing the information is at fault for any violence or abuse directed at them as a result of it? That is a ridiculous accusation to throw my way. Of course they aren't, nobody is. The situation I'm referring to is a civil 'oh, that changes the way I feel about you, I can't be in a relationship anymore', in which there's no 'fault' to be had, it's just a matter of circumstance. |
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| Tinny | Aug 10 2017, 10:25 PM Post #25 |
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You cannot see race (beyond extremely broad categories, and even there it can be difficult) with your own eyes, just look at the Jewish or Ainu peoples, nor can you easily tell ancestry from appearance as well. As for why would the question enter their mind, I would ask that about race as well, and again, race is not nearly as easily determinable as you think it is, as an example... 25,000 is the minimum, it's estimated 200,000 Japanese people are actually ainu, but they ended up integrating so well many have forgotten their racial roots entirely. So that's a potentially 75000 of people where no one can tell the difference between Ainu heritage and purely Japanese heritage.  What race would you place him as? Where's he from? Italian? French? Germany? Is he Jewish? English? Mediterranean? Armenian? Spoiler: click to toggle  what about these people? Bantu, Tutsi, or Aboriginal? Based on physical features alone, How confident are you that you know their ra-Actually, let me put this another way. If they're unable figure that out for some reason, maybe they're blind, or unobservant or just dumb, if they simply are not intelligent enough to put two and two together and realize they're Jewish/Aboriginal/etc., is the other person required to tell them without any prompting? Have they done any wrong if they don't say anything until it comes up in conversation? I am not talking about whether someone should date or not based on that info, I was talking about you expecting them to do the work if you can't clearly tell already (and this isn't just trans, as I said earlier, this can easily be race or religion, and if you think you cannot get those wrong, simply imagine someone unobservant or even just dumb enough that they don't realize anyway, or perhaps simply not spending enough time together if they're moving quicker than you would in a relationship). They can be interested or not based on anything, from food preference to gender, however, this isn't about if they should be required to date them or not, but whether the trans have a responsibility to tell unprompted, or if the other person should ask instead. And if that was all that happened, the question of who'd duty it is to reveal it wouldn't be relevant in the first place, because it'd never turn violent. We do not live in that world and I wish we did. But unfortunately, people do get hurt over this, so I do have to ask who the onus is on here. Is it the trans/jew/ainu/etc.'s duty to explain, or is it the other's responsibility to ask these sorts of questions? If people were always calm and civil about this, this idea of responsibility wouldn't even be an issue, it'd simply come up in normal conversation and things would continue based on that new information, whether it be a break up or things proceeding as if that information were never there to begin with. This is not the world we have, we live in a world where finding out the person who may have had the hots for being trans is a cue for a wacky joke about how disgusting trans people are (the vomit in the toilet thing). We live in a world where trans people are murdered for being trans. So yes, I feel that until we get to a point where being trans is about as remarkable as blond, the onus is on the person to ask about this. To ask otherwise is just leading to victim blaming when this situation happens but there isn't a "oh, I'm not interested" but a physically violent response. It's much like rape I feel in that way, while you could argue a wo/man should have defended themselves in the event of a rape, and be more forceful with their rejection, it's still victim blaming to place the onus of avoiding this situation on them, rather than the rapist to not rape. As I see it, the question of who's duty it is to reveal/ask, is a relevant one, because this sort of violence exists. The question of if they need to reveal it without asking vs them needing to ask in the first place, and the question of if they're at fault in any way or capacity for what follows when the person finds out about it, are closely connected, if not outright one in the same. Why should someone put their own life (be it public or actual) on the line just so a potential transphobe that can't be bothered to ask before something like sex doesn't have to live with the 'horror' that they dated a trans person? And yes this does happen in real life, people react that strongly and that negatively to those things, it's not like a football team where it doesn't matter and no one actually gets violent over that (though now that I've said that I'm almost certain someone has), wearing the fact that you're transexual on your sleeve has real life consequences, many of which are negative, and they shouldn't have to make sure the first thing anyone knows about them is that they're transexual, especially if the person they're interacting with doesn't even bother to ask the question in the first place. The way I see it, if the person has a problem or even if it's simply a deal breaker for them, they need to ask. If they cannot ask, then they are responsible for getting together with a trans, or a Jew, or a vegetarian or whatever else have you, not the other person for not reading their mind and knowing they aren't interested/have a problem with their gender/race/etc. And frankly, I don't think Trans people should have to live as if everyone is by default transphobic and going to assault them if they get into a relationship without informing them. Also and this part I don't understand.
How does transgender not factor into this the same way? "I'm male so I can't carry a child," or "I'm female so I can't impregnate you," don't seem so out of place there. When having kids comes up in conversation, I have to ask what the difference is between being infertile and being trans is in terms of when it's relevant. And another thing, but, do you think the fact that people's transness doesn't come up until directly asked (often unlike race, religion, politics, and fertility), has anything to do with there being a culture that vilifies them as disgusting deceivers? Edited by Tinny, Aug 10 2017, 10:30 PM.
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| * Mitas | Aug 10 2017, 10:59 PM Post #26 |
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It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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Regarding the 'you can see race' comment, I meant superficial race, not their exact heritage. Like I said earlier, if you see their skin colour or facial features and are attracted to them then racism/bigotry is the only reason to rule them out after discovering their heritage.
Why are you saying this like I don't know that this is what we're discussing? My entire previous post addressed this and made my opinion clear: the onus is on the person with the information if it doesn't naturally come up in conversation after a certain amount of dates. I'm not going to repeat my reasons for holding that belief because I detailed them in the previous post.
Again, confused at the last part because at no point did I say that the question of who should divulge the information is irrelevant. Also, no it's not like rape. There is no victim in divulging a piece of information such as that the person is trans or the person is infertile or the person has mental health disorders, or any number of other things that can affect a potential relationship. There is a possibility of there being a victim if violence or abuse comes from the other party upon hearing the information, but at no point would I put the blame on the victim here: the violent person should not have reacted that way. However, the possibility of that violence doesn't change the fact that the onus is on the person with the information to divulge it if it hasn't come up naturally in conversation within the early stages of a relationship. That possibility of violence is there in any relationship you enter for a number of things; if people lived their lives around that violence then they wouldn't get into a relationship in the first place.
Well then in that case the person who is trans would divulge the information without being asked 'are you trans?' because it's an unnatural question to ask unprompted, so you pretty much just proved my point.
Didn't say that and pretty sure I specifically said people shouldn't have to make it the first thing they say. Look, we obviously differ in opinion. I just don't see the logic in expecting somebody to go into every relationship with a checklist of questions to ask before they enter into a relationship, which is what you seem to be insinuating. I should also mention that as somebody with mental health problems, I count myself in that. If mental health doesn't come up naturally after a few dates, I would make a point of bringing it up myself because of the baggage that comes with it and how some people don't want to have to deal with that baggage. |
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| + Steve | Aug 10 2017, 11:19 PM Post #27 |
Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Why would anyone ask that? That's definitely in the list of awkward things to not ask on a date, like "Have you ever had an STD" or "How many sexual partners have you had" or "Do you have a penis?" Things one might want to know but...you don't just ask that. Not if you want to make a decent impression. I for one firmly believe that if there's something "odd" or different about you, then you should be obligated to lay your cards on the table instead of surprising someone with it later. Who does keeping it a secret benefit? Nobody really. The non-trans person might get freaked out or even angry/violent. The trans person is ditched or potentially even attacked for how they are. And otherwise discounting the small number of cases where it ends up not mattering then it's a waste of both peoples time. In dating there's some things you keep secret and some you don't. If it's something big like that which could cause issues you should, if it's something less flattering like "I take the smelliest s***s in town" bombard them with that when they're stuck with you. Not entirely the same but I wouldn't hesitate to let someone know I'm autistic so that they can understand me and judge whether or not they're willing/able to accept someone with various differences to the norm. And we haven't even touched on trans people who either haven't had any sex reassignment surgery or never plan to. A straight guy isn't going to date someone with a dick, doesn't matter how much of a woman they are in regards to gender. That alone is a pretty important hurdle to cross, especially early in a relationship. |
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| Tinny | Aug 11 2017, 12:28 AM Post #28 |
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You haven't answered my question regarding race. You say it comes up easily enough, but if they cannot figure out you're a specific race, is the jewish, or aboriginal, or English person supposed to reveal this? You may not have been talking about that specifically, but how exactly does this stop being a relevant question just because it's more specific than skin color? But how far does this actually extend? Are you going to sit them down and start expositing about your political leanings, your race, your religion, your heritage, and anything else that might be a deal breaker for them? Why should someone else be required to do this with everyone they meet? To which I need to respond that while I get that, I do have to ask, what about after words? The people saying the rape victim should have said no or should have fought back or should not have brought them into their room. The people who say the trans should have said they were trans and that's not okay as their first reaction to this sort of thing. This is a relevant question because people will bring that up, which I feel is pretty s***ty of people to do. Ideally this wouldn't be asked or talked to about someone suffering a traumatic event, but we still live in a culture that blames victims for this sort of thing, be it rape, or trans people getting assaulted, that is why I view it the way I do.
What a minute, what is your position here. Is it that people should explain that they're trans when meeting someone? This implies to me that the fact that they're trans never gets brought up in conversation, but now you're saying it comes up in normal conversation? Is it awkward to talk about or not? Does it come up or not? These seem to conflict here and I'm getting mixed signals what you're trying to say in regards to this. Then when? When should they potentially subject themselves to the backlash and potential assault? Transphobia isn't exactly something you can tell just by looking at people, nor is it a particularly pleasant subject to talk about, for some people, coming out of the closet can result in very real and material loss. They can get disowned by their family if this comes out, they can get assaulted, in some cases they can get stabbed multiple times in the face by someone that they trusted. So when should they brace themselves? Before the relationship starts? Apparently, but then when? A week in? A month in? A year in? After making out? After oral sex? After actual sex? Do trans people need to follow a specific pattern of befriending them for a year or whatever amount of time, revealing their identity to them, seeing how that goes, and only after actually asking them out? Admittedly that's likely the safest option, but is that really something they need to go through when everyone else can search specifically for a lover instead of going through all that? The reason I think they shouldn't have to if not asked, is because there is a real palpable danger there to doing it at any point in a relationship with a lover, they can go out and tell anyone if it's early, or they can freak out and start hurting them if it's late. At the very least, I would say, that to get around this insane idea of deception and betrayal and all that other bull s***, the person this would be relevant to has to first ask them as a human being, instead reacting with disgust as if they somehow lured them in like an angler fish, just ask the question in the first place.
If something explicitly is a deal breaker, they should make it clear, yes, that's how I view things. Whether it's trans, or short people, or eating habits, or mental illness, I believe it's on the person who refuses to attempt a relationship with someone with those, to ask about those things, regardless of how "normal" or "strange" it is. Not wanting to deal the baggage is a positive way to put it, but, and this is how I view it (not sure if I'm repeating myself or not), if you for whatever reason failed to divulge that information, they figure it out somehow and freak out, throwing insults or even attacking you for not telling them that... Do you really want to be told "Oh you should have told them about it"? That is the crux of how I see it. At no point in a situation like that should even the slightest bit of blame be put upon the victim. And so it's the potential aggressors responsibility to ask if it's that important to them. It's not that they have this habit you don't like so you break up, or they like this music so you break up, or they have this issue with this thing so you break up. No, break ups happen for whatever myriad reasons and can occur for whatever reason. It's that we live in a culture that tells rape victims to not show so much skin, it's that we live in a culture that thinks Trans people are disgusting freaks who lure in men and women to rape them. We live in a culture that blames victims for that exact same reason you give. That they are somehow required to tell them that, it's something I find that plays into this disgusting injustice done to people, and that's why I don't think a trans person should be required to reveal that they're trans. It becomes a weapon to further kick them when they're down. Maybe we can't agree, but at the least I hope you understand where I'm coming from on this.
Having a smelly poop doesn't result in you getting stabbed. It does not result in someone calling you a liar, or someone beating you. It does not result in your family disowning you. People with smelly poop are not looked at as disgusting people who lure people in with promises of sex before revealing themselves like some kind of succubus. No one cares about poop. People will kill others for being trans, or disown them. I'm assuming you've never had to deal with this sort of discrimination yourself. Perhaps in regards to other things yes, but, and maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt you've ever been disowned by your parents because of this. I doubt you've been physically assaulted for being a "disgusting autist" and such. There is danger to revealing your transness. I (again, I may be wrong, and if that is the case, I don't think people should have to reveal that kind of damaging information that may result in real harm being done to them) am not aware of any danger to your life (social or otherwise) that can occur specifically because you tell your lover or friend "I'm autistic." That is how I see the difference. If it was just an oddity, it wouldn't be a big deal. But it's not just an oddity, it's something viewed as disgusting and morally wrong. The rest I've talked about responding to Mitas, particularly in regards to how putting the responsibility of telling their lover that they are trans often just turns into a further bludgeon of which to kick them when they're down, either after getting verbally assaulted, or physically assaulted. Edited by Tinny, Aug 11 2017, 12:35 AM.
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| + Son-Goku | Aug 11 2017, 03:37 AM Post #29 |
孫悟空
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Nah, I wouldn't fault them.
I don't think it's bad of them for not wanting to be with them because they're born a male. Why should it be? This is just my personal opinion, but I think a transgender person would probably be with someone that they know would be comfortable with it. I mean, why would they directly go for someone that they would be hurt from? I'm thinking of more to say, but my knowledge is pretty limited on the subject. |
 RP Character Bios Dragon Ball Super: The Super Human Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power | |
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| + Steve | Aug 11 2017, 07:40 AM Post #30 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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...all the more reason to bring it up sooner? If someone finds out right away then it's basically no loss to them if they can't handle someone being trans. But someone who's dated a person for months suddenly finds out and it's something that really gets to them, then that's far more dangerous. Like I said if a severe homophobe was to date someone and then find out they're trans, to know that they've exchanged kisses or perhaps even sexual contact with someone they still deem to be a man then they're absolutely going to feel betrayed and angry, someone like that would be so mad that they've done anything "gay" and all that anger over likely their own insecurities would be directed at the trans person.
Why is this relevant to dating? I'm aware of the hardships trans people can face but if anything that just strengthens my view further, it shouldn't be something trans people hide out of fear it should become casual information. Otherwise it's going to take forever for it to be normalized. As a note I would say however that it's perhaps not wise to have a dating profile that says you're trans, at this stage in society that may be used as a way to hunt you down. Happens to a lot of homosexuals. All these things are just what trans people need to have in mind if they aim to enter the dating scene, you can't neglect to divulge information like that and expect it to not cause issues down the road. There's many things a potential partner needs to know before a relationship goes ahead. For instance, how would you feel if you dated a person for three months and it was going well. You thought maybe you have a future together, marriage? Kids even. And then they tell you they're terminally ill and have a year or two at best to live. From your singular perspective only that is, I totally understand why someone might not want to mention that in particular but it'd be a shock to whoever they were dating regardless. Edited by Steve, Aug 11 2017, 02:58 PM.
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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