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- Zen-Oh vs All of Fiction Gauntlet
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| Zen-Oh vs All of Fiction Gauntlet | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 30 2017, 09:49 PM (1,634 Views) | |
| + Solid Snake | May 30 2017, 09:49 PM Post #1 |
滅Are you frightened?
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Zen-Oh comes across a device that's known as the Heart of The Universe, but it's able to put him on an omniversal realm or power. ALL fictional universes must band together to defeat the empowered Zen-Oh. Which team up you think has a shot of beating him? You may select up to 5 individual who could potentially resist him or if able, to defeat him. An idea of what the HoTU can do in just Marvel: "The HOTU is a different beast entirely, since it grants complete omnipotence, which is something no Marvel character truly has (no matter how many will boast about it). Many people agree that back on the Infinity Gauntlet storyline, Thanos wouldn't have been able to beat the Living Tribunal (some however make the argument that it would be a stalemate), despite overpowering the entire Marvel cosmic pantheon (or most of them, or at least the most powerful ones). When he obtained the HOTU, Thanos didn't just beat them all, he absorbed the Living Tribunal and a couple of other cosmic entities such as Eternity." |
 Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| Notaka | Jul 22 2017, 09:20 AM Post #16 |
Always Wright
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Thanks ! I got carried away by life. I'll try my best to stick on, especially with Super becoming interesting. @Darker It seems to me you are. The guys you all listed aren't even on the abstracts' level, let alone the Living tribunal which is the literal embodiment of the marvel multiverse. and Thanos with the Hotu defeated all of them, and proceeded to absorb them. At this point, Either Zen-Oh stomps or get stomped. |
 "My name is Kakyoin Noriaki!" Thanks to Graffiti for the Sig!  | |
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| Darker | Jul 22 2017, 10:07 AM Post #17 |
The Lord of the Dark
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You do realize I've actually read Marvel: The End, where Thanos himself takes the HOTU? More than once even? I know all of this, and you're exaggerating how Zeno would use it, or how unbeatable it is. I've listed characters who use toonforce and can go outside the story, those are well beyond the capabilities of anything within the story, are beyond broken and are universally hated in battle boards, because they insta-win almost every time unless they're the weakest ones out there. When Thanos took hold of the HOTU, he absorbed Marvel's strongest characters with ease, but guess why that happened, because Thanos did not waste his time fighting them, because Thanos is guy whose experience trumps those who exceed his age by the billions and has the intellect of an unparalleled genius as far as the outside cosmos is concerned. Zeno is unaware of this power. He is a child, and his mind could be trounced with absurd ease. Being a Dragon Ball character, he has no defense against mental attacks and even exponentially weaker characters could annihilate him if they attacked the most defenseless parts of his body, such as his insides. Thanos did not have these weaknesses. Even when Thanos had this power, he only destroyed the main universe he was in, he left the other realities related to this universe alive because he couldn't completely use this power. Even other characters who have taken the HOTU have only been able to absorb a considerably small amount of its power, and Zeno, being as vague as he is, might not even be able to take that much power from the HOTU. |
 Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?! Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power. | |
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| Notaka | Jul 22 2017, 11:55 AM Post #18 |
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Always Wright
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I'm not. You can ask anyone and they'd tell you that HOTU makes the user the supreme being of Marvel excluding TOAA. It's not to be underestimated.
TBH, Toon-Force isn't something that should be used for VS battles. It could beat anyone except Omnipotents just for the rule of funny, or hell any fiction character.
You're just reinforcing my argument. Thanos is so far above them, he doesn't even bother wasting his time and just proceeds to absorb them. What's to say Zeno couldn't simply do the same thing? Or why couldn't he just erase them? Also, I'm pretty sure that HOTU grants virtual Omniscience, because: -How does Thanos knows how it works the first time he got it? -How can he outsmarts Nigh-Omniscient beings? Sure he's a genius, but that doesn't compare to someone who is almost all-knowing. And was it explicitly stated that he won due to sheer intelligence?
HOTU would grant him resistance to any mental attack, or any reality warping attack in any case. Also, what's to say he doesn't have any resistance? Much weaker characters like Vegeta survived mental attacks. If that was the case, why didn't they mentally attack Thanos, or attack his insides? You would think that they would have used it against him, given their powerlessness against him.
He did destroy only the main universe, that's true, but he defeated Hyperversal beings such as the abstracts,TLT. With this feat alone, he stomps all characters you've mentioned. What have the other characters done to be even on the abstracts' level? Also, what you fail to know is that even a small amount of it's power makes the user second, and I mean SECOND strongest being after TOAA Himself. It's true, whether you like it or not. You're debating that Zeno wouldn't get any power from absorbing the HOTU, and that's a subject for another topic. But here, we assume that he gets the same boost Thanos did, which makes him stomp like 99% of fiction. and if he didn't, it would be regular Zeno vs Fiction, and he'd still beat characters such as STTGL. Ultimecia is up in the air tbh and he'd get stomped by Asriel. |
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| Darker | Jul 22 2017, 12:37 PM Post #19 |
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The Lord of the Dark
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Yet you still need to read the damn comic and not the summarized wiki entry to know the specifics. Because otherwise, would you know who this guy is?  He has yet to be mentioned here, and he is relevant to the plot of Marvel: The End and the HOTU's powers.
It's still a clean victory if the character with toonforce is serious.
No. It's not because he's far above them, but because he knows who they are. He has faced them before.
Because he is a child with next to no knowledge about fighting or facing someone who is too dangerous. As far as we know no one's ever tried to fight him. This is why he's bad for match-ups, we know virtually nothing about him that could help him win anything, he's among the most vague characters in the DB franchise. No set of clear strengths and weaknesses like say, Omega Shenron.
And I repeat what I said up there, vague as he is, he probably controls the universes in DB rather than having the power to destroy them, far as we know.
See, this is why you need to read the comic. Above all else, the HOTU grants infinite power.  Semi-omniscience comes with it, but you actually need to be capable of using it. You need to be an experienced being of few sorts to do this, and Zeno is a kid, practically a nobody, few survived Akhenaten's wrath. Who's Akhenaten you may ask? The guy up there in both pictures I posted, and the first to get a taste of the HOTU, and that was only a small chunk of power that took thousands of years to control.  
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That would drive us off into a different discussion where DBZ simply doesn't have enough showings regarding mental attacks. Or barely of what you'd call "showings".
Because, like I've told you, they have already tried this in the past. They failed. Not only is Thanos near unkillable by anyone or anything besides Drax or any overpowered item like the Infinity Gauntlet, but he's also immune to reality-warping. The HOTU amped him up because he was already powerful beyond belief.
They've gone outside the stories and re-written them. That is literally what TOAA is, and a couple of toonforce-based characters have done this.
I tend to not like being told stuff like this, by people unaware that Snake made this thread because I told him what the HOTU was capable of. As if I didn't know already, who do you think started this whole thing?
No. I'm clearly not saying that. But I already explained it all above.
First of all, Ultimecia is a she. Second, we don't know how Zeno works. He could just have control over the universes and say when those have to go or have the power to destroy them, it's very vague. |
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Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?! Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power. | |
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| Notaka | Jul 22 2017, 01:18 PM Post #20 |
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Always Wright
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Hmm, Touché. I'm not knowledgeable when it comes to Marvel. However, It's either Zeno stays the same, or gets the same boost as Thanos. If he stays the same, He'd get stomped by Asriel. If he gets the same boost Thanos did, then nobody you mentioned will beat him. There's no in-between, because there are literally a million of worlds of differences between his actual power and what the HOTU gave. I think he's above the likes of STTGL and Ultimecia by himself, and giving him the HOTU and pit him against Asriel(who is literally a child) would be akin to pitting an adult against an elementary schooler. So it's not fair. Zeno stays the same, or gets an understanding of the Hotu's power and be able to utilize it. Also, Zeno's power is vague, but either he's a Multi-Universal Buster, or an extremely powerful reality warper. Erasing 6 universes in the blink of an eye isn't a joke. |
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| Darker | Jul 22 2017, 01:50 PM Post #21 |
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The Lord of the Dark
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I already explained this is not the case. Zeno is an unskilled kid, Akhenaten was an experienced pharaoh and it took him thousands of years to have full control over a TINY portion of the HOTU's power, Thanos managed to slip under his radar and took all the power the HOTU had, cementing the fact that Akhenaten didn't have total omniscience. Thanos was about as perfect of a character you could have to take it given how immensely powerful he already is, and how few weaknesses the guy has.
For all we know due to his vagueness he could be weaker than anyone.
Thanos became the author of the story, but that is power that can be easily surpassed by those with toonforce and can jump right outside the story.
Again, you're telling me things I already know. I even posted scans of Marvel: The End as I re-read the story. Before I go on any further I repeat: Zeno stands no chance here.
I'll let Connor and lazerbem answer this for me, but let me tell ya, he ain't winning fights against those two.
I'm not the biggest fan of Undertale but given how Asriel has some cunning and was able to decieve others, that alone puts him on a whole different level compared to Zeno who will not be aware of the power he wields, or even know how to control it.
Yeah, it's not fair because Snake made this thread without thinking. He asked me about certain Marvel items, and I asked, not knowing he'd make threads like this. http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/10012357/1
And yet that could just be a thing that has to do with his position of power, not the power he wields, kinda like Celestia from MLP: FiM. He controls the movement of the Sun, but does that make her a sun-buster, or that she could move things as large as stars? Clearly not. We'll have to wait to see if Zeno's powers are better described in future episodes, chapters or interviews, but I doubt that'll ever happen. |
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Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?! Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power. | |
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| Notaka | Jul 22 2017, 02:16 PM Post #22 |
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Always Wright
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Ok, I think I see what the problems are, I'll try my best to solve them: 1. Zeno's power is too vague: It's true his power is vague, but given that there's no explanation for his power, we have to rely on feats, which includes wiping out 6 universes in the blink of an eye. Even if he did have control over them, that makes him a really powerful reality warper. 2.Zeno won't get any stronger from HOTU: While that most likely could happen, this is all speculation. He has to get stronger because otherwise, why would we give Zeno the Heart of the Universe if he's not going to benefit from it? It would destroy the debate. From what we know: Akhenaten, Thanos and a couple of other persons possessed a lit bit of HOTU's power. has Akhenaten demonstrated any feats? If yes, maybe we could use some feats from him. Otherwise we'll have to use Thanos' feats which are far above the likes of Asriel & gang. and as you already know but I have to emphasize on it, there's a ton of difference between Zen-Oh and what the HOTU brings. So either Zeno gets the power or not. You're relying on speculation, which is nice but not how you behave(if there's a better word than this, I'd be delighted to know) in a debate. You have to look at things objectively. You can't just say Zen-oh gets this much of a boost if he used the HOTU, because we're uncertain how much stronger he'd get. If we were running on speculation, I'd say for example, that Saitama solos fiction because his name is one-punch man, and that he never went all out. But by using his feats, he tops out at Saiyan-Saga Vegeta level. See how much that changed? As a side note, Asriel doesn't actually have supergenius intelligence. he gained his knowledge Spoiler: click to toggle from what I remember.
Edited by Notaka, Jul 22 2017, 02:18 PM.
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| Tinny | Jul 22 2017, 02:38 PM Post #23 |
 
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That does still put Asriel ahead of Zeno who seems to be... Well at the level of a toddler frankly. As for my reasoning regarding Asriel, he effects the real world, in a sense making him the most powerful of fourth wall breakers (Deadpool's never closed a comic book in the real world for example, and Bat Mite can't turn off your TV). That's how I see it at any rate. |
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| Notaka | Jul 22 2017, 02:43 PM Post #24 |
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Always Wright
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When did Asriel affect the real world? And also, affecting it won't make you incredibly powerful. That would make Deadpool one of the strongest fictional characters, since at one point he killed the Marvel writers, or Homer Simpsons because he got dropped off unto real life. |
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| Tinny | Jul 22 2017, 02:46 PM Post #25 |
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He outright closed/turned off the game. And no, he was dropped into a fictional representation of the real world, not the real world proper, you didn't see a report on the news about a men dressed like Deadpool killing said writer right? However in the case of Asriel, he does straight up turn off your game, effecting the real world outside of the confines of his fictional world. Edited by Tinny, Jul 22 2017, 02:47 PM.
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| Darker | Jul 22 2017, 02:47 PM Post #26 |
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The Lord of the Dark
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That doesn't solve anything, we still don't know if it's because he's the supreme being of his universe and has a status which gives him said power or if it's because he actually has enough power to destroy any universe, whether it's one of his or not.
It's not speculation, it's a fact. It doesn't work on a child, who has no concept of such power. Zeno lives for his own amusement, even if he could control some of the HOTU, he'd use it to destroy stuff slowly, but even then he's most interested in seeing others fight. That gives others more than enough of an opportunity to beat them.
It's no different than most people on versus matches putting Superman against Thor, unaware that Thor's got a magical advantage over Supes, plus way more.
No, just those two. And Thanos became one with the HOTU, even describing himself as the Author of the story. 
It doesn't matter, because again, he won't be able to use as much power as Akhenaten did. If he did, he'd still lose to those I mentioned.
The only difference is that Zeno is worthless next to it.
He doesn't.
Except we are, because we had enough proof provided to us. And I've already explained this to you.
Completely different character. Saitama is a joke character, it's next to impossible to use him in versus matches out of context. 
...I never said he was a supergenius, I just said he was cunning. Which is FAR more than what Zeno has at his disposal.
Technically speaking, both have done this, but that has nothing to do with this. Edited by Darker, Jul 22 2017, 02:48 PM.
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Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?! Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power. | |
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| Goddess Ultimecia | Jul 22 2017, 02:49 PM Post #27 |
 
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I guess I should explain why Ultimecia is broken in most Other Versus matchups. As someone with extensive knowledge of her, I've only had to concede a few times. That being, against someone like Simon whom uses a power source that strengthens against greater threats and overcedes them. And outright omnipotents that just erase entire franchises like DC or Marvel, or fight not in the realm of universes, but on the concepts of stories themselves (Cosmic Armour etc etc). What makes her so broken right off the bat is her god-like ability to give life to things, coupled with her otherworldly junctioning ability. To give you an idea. Most junctioning done in FF8 is to siphon magics from autonomous energy bodies in Guardian Forces. Well, we've had junctioning from Adel, who can junction physical beings. And Ultimecia goes one step further, and junctions incorporeal concepts. In the case of Griever, courage. What this means, in the case of Zeno. Since it seems like you need knowledge of HOTU in order to get the most out of it, it's possible for Ultimecia to create his perception of the HOTU, junction it, and then suddenly becomes equivalent to whatever he can muck up. Ultimecia is essentially the concept of a double-edged sword made personified. When it comes to facing her, instead of having a plethora of incredibly powerful abilities, you'd be better off sticking with a simple power-set that is beyond anything. Things like Spiral Power, or Death Eyes Perception (this one also relies that its users are nothing power-wise, and thus Ultimecia wouldn't give them the time of day. Something, in the case of Zeno, he doesn't have the luxury of being, weak.) Those two abilities are only the tip of the iceberg I suppose. There's also other things to consider, like the Sorceress Power, Hyne's Body, making her immortal until she passes on her power. Even when she had compressed all of time and space from the past, present, and future (making it so far above a universal feat mind you), she had all of it literally explode inside of her. The problem? Even when time began to unravel after it exploded inside of her? She was still able to walk, and pass on her powers. The problem? Zen-Oh isn't a female as far as I know of. So she can't pass her power onto him. But that also brings up another problem. Unlike other Sorceresses, Ultimecia doesn't die upon passing her power, she injects her conscious into the Sorceress Power, she becomes it. And then she leads into place an infinite loop that allows her to travel as the Sorceress Power, taking over the Sorceresses she's passed on to, eventually leading to passing herself onto her future self. Then you have things like her Final Form+Time Compression combo. Although Time Compression alone is broken beyond belief. Since it wipes the minds of those that lack a friendship (ones that actually give a s*** about one another, not the kind that Goku and Zeno have where Zeno's fine with erasing Goku and his universe while laughing like a child.) or love (which as far as I know of, Zeno doesn't have a romantic interest). About the only thing you could use against her, is fate itself, but as I showed in the above paragraph, not even fate killed her, just temporarily stopped her. So, it's very likely that Zeno gets mind-wiped by Time Compression alone. Nevermind her Final Form that was going to be used to literally make the FF8 universe across all points a blank slate. Not even the space would be there, just... nothing. Which, if used on a mind-wiped Zeno? Well... I'm not saying it's impossible for him to devise some way of getting rid of her, the problem is she's an incredible pest that can and will scale with her opponents. The question is if Zeno will be able to devise some plot to get rid of her, and considering he has the mindset of a child, it's fairly unlikely before she finds a way to get rid of him instead. Considering she's the one that plots a scheme that takes an entire span of a universe to accomplish. |
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| + Solid Snake | Jul 22 2017, 03:05 PM Post #28 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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Out of curiosity, how do you guys see Zen-Oh as "toddler" level smarts? To be king of something, certain requirements of basic understanding of fundamentals are important to have. There has to be a see of order that has to be created and such and I doubt a toddler could rule a planet much less a variety of universes without having some sense on how to run things. Even so, he has his attendants and even the Grand Priest to elaborate concepts that would be confusing for him and he'd be caught up to speed on the matter. Anyway, for the topic at hand Zen-Oh has full understanding of how HOTU works if him being able to use it seems unrealistic to y'all. |
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Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| Goddess Ultimecia | Jul 22 2017, 03:11 PM Post #29 |
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Well that just makes it even worse now for Zen-Oh when it comes to Ultimecia lol. In regards to the seeing him as a toddler level of smarts... I mean... well... it only requires a looking of every interaction with Zeno. His best feat is playing a universal variant of chess. But that was basically chess-pieces in the form of planets. Getting a support system to help him out is something even a 10 year old could do, at best, a teenager. It's not uncommon for an absolute idiot to be in control of everything. Look no further than Azathoth from the H.P. Lovecraft verse. The Blind Idiot God. http://lovecraft.wikia.com/wiki/Azathoth Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Jul 22 2017, 03:17 PM.
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| + Solid Snake | Jul 22 2017, 03:14 PM Post #30 |
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滅Are you frightened?
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How so? According to Darker, Zen-Oh not being able to understand it's power and therefore not being able to use it's power meant he'll be at his default level. |
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Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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