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Rin Tohsaka vs Squall Leonheart vs Harry Dresden
Topic Started: May 19 2017, 04:52 AM (418 Views)
Goddess Ultimecia
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So, decided to make this topic so that me and a couple friends can perhaps start an Other Versus template that will make this area FAR less hostile. We'll be doing something akin to a Deadliest Warrior breakdown, going over very specific things such as martial prowess, magic ability, weaponry etc etc.

I'll start this topic off by bringing up one of the most important factors in a fight, hand to hand fighting ability. I'll let Tinny present Rin Tohsaka's ability if she has any. If not, then he will pass, and I will present Squall's and then Jesse will present Harry Dresden's. Then we'll discuss which one of the three have a superior ability in that area.
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Tinny
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Rin Tohsaka hasn't had many opportunities to showcase her skill in hand to hand combat due to the fact that her opponents were mostly servants that could easily kill her, but she isn't unskilled in combat I will say, she has a few things that can help her to even the odds. First of all her magic can enhance her physical capabilities, allowing her to use her limbs with far more strength than usually, which can be used to punch harder, or to jump forward or up quickly, allowing her to essentially wall jump. In addition to brute strength she does have if Shiro is to be belived skill in Chinese martial arts, as well as knowledge of how to disable someone from behind. (it should be noted in the case of her martial arts being demonstrated, Caster has no skill in hand to hand despite her nature of as a servant otherwise making her dangerous even in CQC).
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Finally, and this should be noticed, while she is often fairly cautious when dealing with servants, if she thinks she's better or about even with her opponent she will be very aggressive, almost always on the attack when possible.
Edited by Tinny, May 19 2017, 05:08 AM.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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Squall's hand to hand prowess is unfortunately not shown much, but it is implied to be very great. According to the FF8 Ultimania, all Balamb Garden students are expected to participate in some form of hand to hand training. The most popular martial arts being wrestling, which tournaments are held for. Combining this, along with Squall being stated to be simply far beyond the other students (with the exception of Seifer) in every aspect (and when it comes to Seifer, superior to in terms of leadership). One can infer that Squall is no slouch when it comes to getting up close and personal with other fighters. However, it should be mentioned that Squall is not the best H2H fighter in his group, that moniker belongs to Zell, who specializes in fighting with nothing more than his body as a weapon.

Also, it can be assumed that junctioning works similar to Rin's ability to amp herself, albeit, Squall has never been shown in-game tutorial (Which is canon) to be harboring any sort of speed buff or physical buff. He has, however, been shown to be able to use fire, ice and lightning. Which can do some damage if he manages to get his hands on anyone. Since wrestling in large part kills leverage, it could be very dangerous to an opponent that requires to be standing on their feet to strike effectively.
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Daemon Keido
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Harry, being a wizard in modern times, is not against fighting hand to hand. When he does, he normally uses his staff, his height's (almost seven feet tall) implied reach and a generally unusual amount of strength to smack you around. He also comes equipped with a bunch kf rings that sap a small amount of kinetic energy from him swinging his arms. When fully charged, they let him punch a car with enough force to knock it over. He is also a dirty fighter, and willing to use pragmatic means to win a brawl.

If this sticks to pure strikes, Harry probably has this in the bag, but wrestling locks and holds would probably an issue if one can avpid his dirty fighting.
A Shadow is merely Darkness in the presence of Light


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Tinny
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Rin though she has some experience with grappling against Luvia, does tend to stick to striking opponents rather than wrestling with them. With that said however, her experience and constant rivalry with Luvia likely means she has a good idea of how to combat it. And the biggest problem (which also deals with Harry's own power) is her ability to strengthen her limbs allowing her to suddenly jump forward or punch harder, which may be harder to grapple with when she's flying (not literally in this case), and she is incredibly aggressive when she thinks she can win. Hell if she can she may even try to air juggle you. :p
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That said Squall may definitely prove a problem if he ends up able to restrain her and eliminate her leverage, aside from that, the best thing for these fighters to do against her is likely stay on the defensive and wait for her to open up a weakness to exploit, she does kick up a lot of dust from her style as shown.

I suppose the most important question is how exactly Squall utilizes his junctioning in fisticuffs.

That said, Rin doesn't have any weapons like the staff, so Dredsen might be able to use that to keep her at bay as well, assuming he keeps up with her rather relentless aggression she will likely display in hand to hand combat against other mages.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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The biggest problem for Squall here is that he's fighting two absolute physical monsters when it comes to striking power. One's capable of flipping over a car with a punch, the other is throwing up the ground underneath her from punching and kicking. Squall's striking power is... not quite at the same level lol. However, he still does have a chance if he can neutralize leverage as Tinny and Daemon's pointed out. Given he's been trained since a child to do just that, it's a likely possibility. It seems he also has the benefit of the doubt here, since he won't be doing anything comparably ridiculous and thus effort against him may be lowered?

How he would use junctioning with fisticuffs is likely how it's treated in-game. Significant elemental damage. Translated to our format, fire would likely burn, electricity would shock, and ice would probably leave freeze burns. While it doesn't help with striking power, it does help with the effectiveness of his blows I feel. Junctioning also has the added stealth element to it unless the two can sense magical energies. The only fighter in the FF8 group that can actually show their element when striking is Zell. And that's more to due with his control over magic not being as great, and his physical ability in conjunction being almost ridiculous.

Squall's weapon is the Gunblade, which gives him something of an edge against these two. As it's a blade, that can slice. His opponents are either punching, or smacking with a staff. One wrong move, and his opponents could end up as sliced cheese. He's been said to of mastered the Gunbade, despite it being such a difficult weapon to do with. In FF8, it's so legendary that its used in movies in universe to show valiant knights defending sorceresses against dragons. He's shown in FMV's his ability with his blade. Against another Gunblade user, a random soldier with some armour and Ultimecia.

VS Seifer

VS Galbadian Soldier

Against Ultimecia


Another neat mechanic of the Gunblade is its surprises. The first of which is its vibroblade function (that makes no sense in our world). Basically, pulling the trigger right before the point of contact fires the shotgun mechanism in the Gunblade, which causes the blade to vibrate to the point that it causes an explosion as it makes contact. It's something that no one will likely expect the first time its used. The second is Squall's ability in Dissidia to summon his Gunblade at will.

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I think Squall's best bet here after watching the two showcase some of their ability is to keep himself subtle with his weapon, try not to bring too much attention to himself. Use the element of surprise (surprise surprise, SeeD candidates are also trained in guerilla tactics, asymmetrical warfare, sabotage and how to appear inconspicuous despite their ability.) to his advantage. Keeping the blade to himself unless he's going to go for a kill shot. If he can stick to that, he could manage something in that department. I'd say in terms of pure stats, Squall is the weakest here. Although potentially the most dangerous in a subtle way.
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Daemon Keido
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The next thing to consider is the magic ability of each of the fighters. Harry Dresden is a wizard of many talents and has the ability to use many different types of magic.

Primarily, he is a fire user. In fact, he is rather infamous for using fire. He used to be able to hse Hellfire but has since lost that ability and new uses Soulfire, the angelic version. On top of the obvious nature, it also allows him to create constructs (due to Soulfire being the fires of creation that God once used to make everything in Dresden's universe) but at the cost of bits of his soul each time, so obviousoy he only uses it when absolutepy neccessary.

However, he also has a functional mastery of ice magic, wind magic, earth magic (which he uses to manipulate gravity instead of the traditional geomancy), and force magic (pure energy). While he can use the force magic to project blasts, he can also use it to form shields to protect himself, which are of sufficient srrength to repel gunfire. He also has a one-use spell called his Death Curse. As can be guessed, he can use it to sacrifice his life and use all that life force as one single shot and that tends to hurt alot. It is projected that it can kill most mortsl entities outright and mortally wound some classically immortal ones as well.

His flexibility in ranges and techniques makes him a threat everywhere but he would excel most at close to medium ranges, where his fire hits maximum saturation. He can fight at long to extreme range but he won't be as successful as the other fighters here.
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Tinny
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Squall isn't defenseless by any means if he's able to use the elements like that by any means, though all the same having an actual sword is still gonna pose a large danger. With all that said, Rin isn't stupid either, and generally knows when to stay at a distance against dangerous foes, in these and more cases, she has been very willing to utilize gandr, a simple curse spell within her magic crest she likes to use. If it hits you in the head or a vital spot, it is very likely you can die, and she isn't shy about shooting many shots rapidly, she can also have them chase after her target in some cases, as I'll show later.
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In addition, if this is indoors or anyone take shelter in a kind of room, she can create barriers to lock a person in a room like so...
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Further more using that same barrier, she can then shoot multiple gandr shoots through it, almost certainly a death sentence if you don't have a shield.
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However it should be noted that she also has magic in the form of healing (she even used a pendant her father gave her to heal Shiro from near death), and can use gems for quick throw away spells (think something like scrolls in DnD), she can create barriers, trap people and crush them, even basically turn them to grenades. With that said, she only has a limited amount of them, and is generally less likely to use them in a fight.
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Finally, there is her magic crest, given to her by her father, which gives her access to her father's magic. It's how she's able to cast gandr without so much as a word, and can potentialyl let her cast spells, many of which may involve fire, including a barrier in front of the perons which burns all that passes through, and a simple flame attack that burns people alive (though overall she greatly prefers Gandr)

She should be deadly at about any range though most commonly her magic is best at mid range.
Edited by Tinny, May 19 2017, 07:42 PM.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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Should probably explain FF8's magic system and the even more unique method that Squall uses to actually use said magic.

Although it has not been scientifically proven in-universe. It is widely believed that FF8's magic comes from a being known as The Great Hyne, there are two main tales of this being, indicating that it's much akin to an Androgynous creator god in our world. But the end of the tale reminds mostly the same, defeated by the combined unity of humanity, The Great Hyne offers half its body as a peace deal. Pleased, humanity lets its guard down as Hyne escapes, and its second half disappears. This second half becomes the part that is distributed across females in humanity. Women who are imbued with this power become known as Sorceresses. These beings are known as being incredibly powerful, the stuff of legend and infamy, and also known for being immortal until they pass their power.

Obviously that comes with the caveat of being female. Which Squall is not, he taps into this power through use of the junction technology created (in FF8) about two decades ago during the Great Sorceress War. What this requires is for a user to use an autonomous energy form in a Guardian Force to act as a conduit for them to use their magic. This is what lets SeeD hopefuls improve their physical abilities and use magic. As well as summon these autonomous energy forms to fight for them.

Squall has shown in tutorial to be able to use the spells fire, blizzard and thunder. We thankfully have a few visual showings of these spells in action. The Fire spell from Seifer.

Seifer using Fire


And we get demonstration of a battle between Garden schools using magic against one another.

Battle showcasing Fire, Ice and Thunder


Those are the spells of course casted by themselves and not junctioned to a weapon. Obviously in this scenario it would be better used with junctioning, as his spell's abilities pale to his opponent's. Where his magic really comes into play is with his summons. We know Squall has atleast three Guardian Forces that he can call upon. Quetzalcotl, Shiva and Ifrit. Each one of these three come with their own devastating elemental attacks. Lightning: Quetzalcotl, Ice: Shiva, Ifrit: Fire

Quetzalcotl


Shiva


Ifrit


The most powerful out of these summons is likely Shiva. As when you face Ifrit, he remarks your acquisition of her, and looks visibly distraught. His dialogue adds to it as well after being hit once.

Overall, Squall's magic is generally weaker than his opponents here, but I feel his summons can make up for it.
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, May 21 2017, 01:12 PM.
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Daemon Keido
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We come to perhaps one kf the most important parts of a fight, the battle awareness or "fight smarts". The aspect of a fighter in which they are aware of their surroundings and how well they are actually doing.

Dresden in this case is rather well prepared. To the point that manybof his friends call him paranoid. But as he has once been recorded as saying:

"Just because I am paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat my face off five feet away."

Dresden tries to be prepared for everything short of the apocalypse most days. However, his senses are keenest when doing dectective work so he is probably the weakest of the three at using it in combat. However, when he does get the chance, he is probably an equal.
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Tinny
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Rin isn't nearly as paranoid (though she does often bring Archer to her school in spirit form when possible), but she still has a tactical head on her shoulders, and she has to considering the opponents she goes up against, from having to coordinated a battle against Berserker with Archer and Saber when it's stated the rest of the servants could go up against him and still lose (to get an idea of the stat difference), and even take on servants mano e mano, even when it's ordinarily very dangerous (such as taking on a servant in hand to hand combat, often suicidal but needed against a servant like Caster). She's already shown that she uses the environment in her magic to trap others, and shows a keen awareness of her environment.

We are talking about someone who's fought in the holy grail war, Rin by no means should be underestimated, and she has been taken on foes stronger than herself since grade school arguably (she managed to survive an encounter with Ryuunosuke, a seriel killer). :p
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