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| What If Trump Actually Manages To... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 17 2017, 10:12 PM (1,707 Views) | |
| + Solid Snake | May 17 2017, 10:12 PM Post #1 |
滅Are you frightened?
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Replicate what Hitler did a year or so from now or in the near future? How would the world respond? |
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| Political Piper | May 30 2017, 01:55 AM Post #2 |
 
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And what would Trump be replicating of Hitler's? If you are talking about socialism, I say Obama is more socialist than Trump. If you are talking about authoritarian rule, I'd say the government has been expanding for years and our last President said quote, "I don't need congress. I have a phone and a pen," and, "elections have consequences." If you are talking about a Muslim ban I would say there was nothing in the executive order that points to any ban of a religion, but the top 5 countries (save Nigeria) on the Global Terrorism Index are composed of Muslim majority nations. The top ranking Iraq isn't even on the list anymore. Note: Athough Nigeria has a Muslim population of 45%, the majority (80%) of terrorist attacks are from the Islamic group Boko Haram, and another majority by fuhadi (sp?) militants with allegiance with Islam.. If you are talking about him increasing immigration security, I'd say that policy was based on Obama's pass immigration policy. If you are talking about him wanting to keep our borders safe and deport illegal aliens, I'd say legislation for a wall was passed in 2006 with Senators Clinton, Biden, and Obama all voting yes on it. I'd also say that Obama deported more illegal immigrants than any other President in history. If you're talking about 'laxed gun laws, I'd quote Hitler, "To conquer a nation, first, disarm its citizens." If you are talking about deregulation of the economy, I'd say Hitler believed in strict regulation. I guess the point I'm trying to describe is that all of this innuendo that Trump is Hitler is a pathetic argument to make, since his predecessors have done similar and worse things and in terms of policy, Hillary and Bernie both were closer to Hitler than Trump. Edited by Political Piper, May 30 2017, 01:56 AM.
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| + Son-Goku | May 30 2017, 05:28 PM Post #3 |
孫悟空
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Replicate what? Hitler did a lot. |
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| + Emmeth | May 31 2017, 12:11 PM Post #4 |
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Yeah, I think you need to be more specific there, bud. I think Piper just about covered every option you could've specified, though. |
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| lazerbem | Jun 1 2017, 10:59 PM Post #5 |
 
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The frick does that have to do with Hitler? He was a fascist who hated socialists. Just because the Nazis had it in their name doesn't make them socialists anymore than it makes North Korea a people's republic because it's in the name
No, they weren't. Trump is a reactionary right wing politician who relied on populism to get to his position. Hitler also follows that description. Hillary and Bernie are centrist and left wing respectively, and both would are diametrically opposed in policy to anything remotely Hitler-like. Why do you think that all the neo-nazis went with Trump and that there's been a resurgence in various racial hate movements? Calling Trump Hitler is an exaggeration, but he does have far more in common with him than Hillary or Bernie. Edited by lazerbem, Jun 1 2017, 11:01 PM.
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| + Saiyan Paladin | Jun 2 2017, 12:12 AM Post #6 |
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You mean replicate killing 6 million Jews and 6 million other assorted ethnicities in concentration camps? And conquering most of Europe? In a year? Wow. The latter would almost be impressive. Seriously though, the Trump/Hitler-Nazi comparisons are getting ludicrous and just help to fuel the right's narrative. Your average person sees the comparison and just shakes their had at the person/people making it, which helps to tarnish their side's credibility. I feel the same way about people who think Trump is Hitler as I did about people who thought Obama was an illegal immigrant who was a gay muslim hooker at night -- they're idiots. |
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| Political Piper | Jun 2 2017, 12:24 AM Post #7 |
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Not true. Hitler believed in Socialism and was a socialist. Just because he also believed in authoritarian rule does not negate his inclination toward socialistic policies. Besides, Fascism is a type of Government, Socialism is an economic system - two different types of concepts. I wouldn't consider Trump a right wing politician either. He leans left on many important issues: gay marriage, LGBT rights, healthcare. He's more of a moderate with neoconservative proclivities in terms of defense. The main basis for comparing Trump to Hitler is because of campaign rhetoric regarding a Muslim ban and his tough stance on immigration. But the idea of a wall only became relevant since Trump became a politician. It was completely bipartisan in 2006 when the majority of democrats and republicans voted for it. Now it's an attack against inclusion and unity and represents racism. Also, since Trump became President he hasn't done anything close to a Muslim ban or even attempted to create a Muslim ban. Nor has he done any type of mass deportation. He is still far behind Obama in terms of deportation of illegal immigrants. It could be acceptable to say Trump is closer to Hitler in terms of authoritarian persona, although I disagree with this since Trump hasn't done anything I would consider authoritarian rule. The only thing he has done would be the Syria bombing, which the majority of democrats and republicans agreed with and the majority of his base disagreed with. So it's possible to say Trump "may" be like Hitler in terms of authoritarian mentality, but as of yet no proof has in been given. In terms of policy though, Bernie and Hillary are closer to Hitler since progressive and democratic policy believe in wealth redistribution and further entitlements, which is synonymous with Hitler's ideology. So I'm curios on what the OP means in his question. I did find it interesting a few months ago when online trolls changed the definition of fascism to a right-wing belief system on Wikipedia. Which is completely contradictory from what I was taught in school growing up. What communist and fascist countries used capitalism as their economic system? Fascism and Communism both rely heavily on Socialism. Sadly, now people are starting to believe that fascism is right wing and communism is left wing; a fallacy that could lead to dire consequences if disseminated prominently.
This is a very poor argument. Just because a group of people, that may be morally questionable, support Trump, doesn't mean Trump is one of them. Hell, Black Lives Matter activists have chanted death to pigs (cops) and Obama has invited them to the White House. Are we to assume Obama is a racist who is against police officers? Also, I don't recall Trump inviting neo-nazis to the White House and praise their movement. The Group ANTIFA, which stands for anti-fascists actually use fear and violence to prevent people from speaking at universities. They are joined by many on the left who also partake in protests to prevent speakers from speaking because they claim it offends them. What conservative groups prevent speakers from using their 1st amendment rights? Madonna saying she thinks about blowing up the White House and Kathy Griffin holding up a severed head of Trump is far more dangerous than Trump could ever be. The sad fact is that there may be neo-nazis on the right who claim to support Trump, but that's all they do is talk, and I don't see Trump supporting their movement. There are those on the left who try to prevent speakers from speaking, who cause riots and protests to get what they want, who physically harm others. They are more dangerous to democracy then Trump, and we see people supporting them like Hillary Clinton calling to start a resistance, and Loretta Lynch calling for more protests and calling for "bloodshed." I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Trump is Hitler argument just doesn't cut it anymore. Not in these days. Not until those on the left who use violence and hatred to deny others their constitutional rights are condemned by prominent democratic and progressive voices like Obama, Hillary, Loretta Lynch, Bernie, etc. But as of yet, this hasn't happened. |
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| Political Piper | Jun 2 2017, 12:26 AM Post #8 |
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Very good, Paladin. You see the irrationality in one of the most flawed arguments out there. The Trump is Hitler argument just doesn't cut it anymore. It was a good talking point during the campaign, but now it just falls short. |
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| + Emmeth | Jun 2 2017, 12:48 AM Post #9 |
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Actually, I don't think you're right about Hitler and socialism. Hitler SAID he was a socialist, but I don't think he meant that as what was, but what he could turn it into. Hitler was foremost a fascist, this is an undeniable fact. |
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| lazerbem | Jun 2 2017, 02:41 AM Post #10 |
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"The great masses of workmen want nothing else than bread and amusement; they have no understanding of idealism; and we can never count on being able to gain any considerable support among them. What we want is a picked number from the new ruling class, who – unlike you – are not troubled with humanitarian feelings, but who are convinced that they have the right to rule as being a superior race, and who will secure and maintain their rule ruthlessly over the broad masses." - Hitler He doesn't sound very socialist when he talks about workmen being irrelevant to him. Socialism is all about the working class, and for all of Hitler's public speeches, he evidently didn't care much about them. Socialism also advocates for the destruction of capital, something Hitler obviously didn't care much about.
His healthcare is left wing? What? It's the utter opposite. His healthcare is the epitome of right wing healthcare. He's also quite right wing when it comes to his financial policy and rhetoric regarding to religious and racial issues.
10 years ago, gay marriage was also barely a blip on the public conscience. Things change in time, you know. Nowadays, Trump's rambles(often wrong) on certain groups comes off as really
So he's either a liar who deliberately courted racists in order to curry favor or he just realized that it'd blow up in his face. Neither is very good
I would hope so given he's not even been in for a year.
He's like Hitler in the sense that he fans racist flames and uses it to further his agenda. Whether he believes it genuinely or not, he still does do it. Also he's a fan of the tough guy nation persona.
I was unaware that democratic policy believed in tribalism and creating an elite class to rule over others as it would benefit the whole society.
Fascism is third way politics but is generally associated with right wingers due to right wingers typically supporting it in the countries where it pops up.
That's not how that works though. Pinochet was plenty fascist but did practically nothing that could be considered socialist. Communism would of course use socialist policies if it was ever implemented, but it never has been. If you mean countries who called themselves communist, then they used state capitalism as capital still existed; just under control of the state.
No, but we can say that he sympathizes with the rather left wing idea that racial divides are a significant problem.
The Anti-Fa are far left wingers who would despise democrats and any other liberals. A couple of liberals may join them but they join at their own risk since anarchists hate them. They view them as traitors. But yes, if a person joins the anti-fa, I would say they have far left sympathies and are probably an a*****.
Trump for one wanting to change libel laws, which would involve playing around with the 1st amendment.
I don't think they have access to nuclear codes nor the wit to plan a big attack.
Except that rightist hate groups in America are on the rise lately. He doesn't support them explicitly, but his rhetoric draws them out. They're different from BLM in that sense, as BLM was drawn out by things outside of the President's influence.
Meanwhile right wing terrorists in the USA have attacked more people than Islamic terrorism since 2002 and are on various FBI watchlists for domestic terrorism. BLM breaks windows, the likes of Dylann Roof shoot up churches. Obviously a lot of this was under Obama and Bush, but if we're talking about dangers to democracy, I'd definitely argue I'm more threatened by the guy who slashes out the throats of people who defend Muslim women than most others.
Of course it doesn't, but there's more parallel to him than what you're saying. Trump is probably not a Hitler but it's still really bad if he's another George Bush.
I can't speak for BLM, but with anti-fa, it's entirely unrelated to them save maybe for Bernie. Anarchists would be loathe to care about any of them since they're all liberals and anarchists hate liberals. Even Bernie's probably too liberal for them since he doens't advocate for full socialism. |
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| Political Piper | Jun 3 2017, 02:14 AM Post #11 |
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Fascism is a type of Government, socialist is an economic system. Likewise, America is a republic, capitalism is t he economic system. Being one doesn't mean you aren't the other |
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| Daemon Keido | Jun 3 2017, 02:47 AM Post #12 |
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What we are saying is just because Hitler claimed to be Socialist to further his goal of gaining control of Germany does not mean he is in fact Socialist. Aren't you the one thar said just because Trump was elected under the Republican banner that he isn't neccessarily a Republican at all?
Edited by Daemon Keido, Jun 3 2017, 02:47 AM.
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| Political Piper | Jun 3 2017, 03:10 AM Post #13 |
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His healthcare was called Obamacare light. More left leaning than pre-Obama. He has stated in the past many times he believes in universal healthcare. The current healthcare that passed the House is so similar to Obamacare that the Senate are going to write a new one closer to the free market.
Indeed. Hillary only came out for support of gay marriage in 2013 - Obama 2010. Civil evolution doesn't mean a concept changes in terms of what party it most aptly aligns with.
I refer you again to the Global terrorism index. Fear of radical Islam is a common fear. I don't think the millions of those who fear radical Islam are all fascists, or even bad people for that matter. Trump said ban all of them until we figure out what the hell is going on. His words, not mine. Meaning this isn't a permanent ban but a ban to help identify terrorists. This doesn't make him evil for wanting to protect the American people. It's also important to note he hasn't done anything like this yet. We could all be labeled bad names by what we've said in the past; it's our actions that matter.
The point is that even someone like Obama who is the most leftist President ever since LBJ, still deports illegals because it is the duty of Government to keep legal citizens safe. Bigotry and racism is irrelevant when protecting our borders.
I disagree. I don't see any of his policies spouting from racism, nor do I see the policies themselves being racist. As for the nation tough guy persona, I think most people would rather appear to be tough than weak. Doesn't make him a monster.
Look back at the Fascist countries during WW2. Fascist support was derived from supporters of socialism.
I'll have to look into this.
Supporting BLM and saying his son would look like Treyvon Martin actually hurts race relations. The majority of felons are African Americans and the majority of cops are white. There is already hostility between them and many view it as race related. I don't see Obama supporting a group making death threats at innocent cops being justified to close racial divides. Far from it actually.
I wouldn't say liberals join them. The term liberal has devolved in this day in age. Classic liberalism is closer to libertarianism these days, what we see now are neolibs; different from classical libs. I say that because I don't like using the word liberals when discussing SJW's, safe spaces, violence, etc, because a true liberal doesn't believe in those things. This isn't arguing you point, just a statement that I don't like people saying liberalism is a mental disorder, because true liberals are good people who believe in individualism over collectivism.
Yes, Trump hasn't done anything that prevents the media from reporting on him. Calling the press out on BS isn't proactively suppressing them. Again, actions are more important than words.
Correct, they have a more dangerous weapon than nukes - influence onto others; with millions supporting them. People look up to celebrities, showing violence against the President only justifies strengthens the vitriol they feel for him, and for his supporters. Yet, there are many Trump supporters who are no different than anyone else. If only people talk with each other before assuming the worst in somebody else because of their beliefs. I was recently called a communist and lost a subscriber because I did a video saying a universal basic income for a substitute for entitlements would be a good thing because it would shrink the size of government and retreive billions more back to the treasury, but I digress. I feel safe having Trump with the codes, and the reason I do is because it takes 3 people to launch a nuke, the President and 2 of his cabinet members approval, and since Trump has generals and army veterans in his staff and he himself said he gives them free reign pretty much, the chance of the US using a nuke in a proactive move is next to nil. Hell, even as a response to an attack is next to nil.
What rhetoric has Trump said while President? He has actually been very calm and inclusive in his words since assuming office. Preaching for stronger borders isn't preaching for right wing extremism. My theory for the rise of right wing extremism is due to the rise of left wing regressivism - SJWs, college students, protesters, rioters, etc. You can't claim the rise of neo-nazi groups is from Trump's rhetoric. There is just no evidence. Besides, didn't Richard Spencer recently denounce Trump?
Wasn't Dylan Roofs reason due to racism and not right wing terrorism? If not, what terrorist group did he belong too?
I agree that we definitely don't need another Bush, and we definitely don't need another Obama. But as of now, Trump's policies have been closer to the constitutional values over Obamas policies.
But it was Bernie supporters who were protesting and starting fights at Trump rallies and who were burning American flags and raising Mexican ones. I don't recall Bernie denouncing their behavior. Maybe he did, but I don't remember it. Just like I don't remember Pelosi and Schumer denouncing them either. Hillary definitely didn't. One of the biggest dangers of a Fascist country is when you lose the freedom of speech. We see this in Germany now. They are arresting journalists who report on the massive increase of crime ever since accepting Islamic migrants. We also see this here in the states with the constant attacking of conservative speakers. I wish they would grow up and realize it is a constitutional right for free speech. I disagree with many things Trump has done as President, but it's becoming clearer every day that he is no different than the average President we've had for decades. It's a pendulum swing everytime a new President gets in, and Trump is not doing anything radical. He has not done anything different that most other Presidents. Perceiving him to be near Hitler (not saying you perceive him since you already said you dont, but the OP's question is a common contention in today's world) is ludicrous. EDIT: Daemon, I know what you are saying, and yes I did say that Trump is not a full fledged Republican but more of a moderate centrist, but we know Hitler didn't just claim he's a socialist, he actually implemented socialist policies and progressive policy by vastly expanding government Edited by Political Piper, Jun 3 2017, 03:13 AM.
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| lazerbem | Jun 8 2017, 09:18 PM Post #14 |
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Leftist healthcare would traditionally favor the working class as opposed to giving favors to the rich.
I'm not saying he's evil incarnate but his actions aren't well thought through.
It's possible to deport illegals without fanning flames of hatred in the process. It's also possible to not institute travel bans that you call a Muslim ban. His lack of delicacy when speaking gives across a harsh message, and that's assuming he doesn't simply not care himself.
Sure, in moderation, it's fine. But when he goes off and starts alienating traditional allies with constant bravado as well as leveraging their tragedies into political capital for himself, it contains similarities to fascist thought. He's not a fascist, of course, I feel I must reiterate that. He shows some tendencies but not much more.
Then why were communists, socialists, and anarchists some of the first to be repressed under the Nazis? Why did the socialists in Germany go into concentration camps? Why were some of the first to challenge Hitler(and fail) an alliance of leftist parties? Are you talking about Mussolini being a socialist in the past? He got kicked out of the party. I have no idea what leftist support there was for fascists in WW2 unless you mean Stalin helping out Hitler, but Stalin was also a tremendous a***** who ran a state capitalist autocracy and was known for purging leftists he didn't like. And you'll notice that Hitler stabbed him in the back too.
I didn't say it was justified, I was saying that it shows left wing sympathies. Lowering the power of the police and such falls along those lines. As for BLM, it's a disorganized mess and that's the problem.
That's all well and good, but if you support any kind of capitalism, you'd be a liberal in the eyes of anti-fa. To many of them, Bernie is a liberal puppet, even. Neoliberal or whatever, they'd not be welcome among the anti-fa. They're anarchists.
You condemned BLM for death threats though.
Correct, since entering office, he's lessened up on it beyond blurting out fake news. It doesn't mean that his campaign rhetoric didn't cause problems by itself, given it lasted around for a year. As for right wing extremism, that's silly. If that were the case, you'd see a rise in right wing extremism during the time of the civil rights movement and this was not the case. Not to mention that it feels like blaming the people protesting social ills for backlash is backwards. Wouldn't the conditions that have led to those protests be to blame? I'm not talking about protesting Trump, I'm talking about stuff like protesting the lax punishment standards with the police.
You don't need a terrorist group to be a terrorist. But Dylan Roof actually did get inspiration from the Council of Conservative Citizens “The first website I came to was the Council of Conservative Citizens. There were pages upon pages of these brutal black on White murders.” The CofCC is a far right organization who inspired him into his act of intimidation. Therefore, he's a terrorist.
I think Bernie's got no clue what he's talking about and whips up pointless anger himself, so that's not too relevant for me. The other Democratic candidates have no obligation to denounce his people when Bernie is quite distant from their policies.
There's a difference between the government not allowing you to speak and people at a place deciding they don't want to hear you. The constitution doesn't force people to listen to a conservative speaker or give him a post to speak at. Though I have to say, it's not all that constant either. Also, Germany's had limited free speech for decades now, this is nothing new.
But what would the average President be? There's a lot of variety in that statement. There are really bad Presidents, and Trump comes off as one of those with the some of his cabinet picks and association with people like Putin(not even any conspiracy bit here, but the lip service he's paid him). People compare Trump to Hitler because some of his talk comes off as similar and because Hitler's the generic bad guy, but that's just people exaggerating.
What socialist policies? Also, expanding the government runs very counter to the idea of socialism. Socialism would ultimately lack a government or hierarchy of any sort due to the workers controlling everything as well as the dissolution of the state in general. Edited by lazerbem, Jun 8 2017, 09:19 PM.
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| Cal | Jun 10 2017, 06:18 PM Post #15 |
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The only thing in this thread worse than the OP is the liberal and conservative circle jerk occurring between people who want to pinpoint Hitler as a 'would-be' modern Democrat or Republican. What the hell guys? |
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