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New evidence for the Two Base Theory
Topic Started: May 6 2017, 12:43 PM (2,655 Views)
ekrolo2
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Back in 2015, to celebrate the release of Resurrection F, V-Jump released a full color art book to promote the film that gives you artwork from Toriyama along with bits of information regarding the characters.

As you can see here, Toriyama makes mention of Saiyan's being able to attain God-like levels of power without changing form (Saiyan Beyond God) but then going SS to attain a new level of power (SSGod SS). If this is meant to count for the anime and even the manga (with SSGod replacing Saiyan Beyond God, obviously) this would resolve quite a few of the issues regarding how Goku & Vegeta's powers work.

Do bear in mind that this was written when Resurrection F was a thing, back when Goku & Vegeta weren't far off from Beerus and couldn't use the golden SS line anymore so the possibility of a silent retcon isn't entirely off the table.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

Interesting. I have to wonder if this is implying that Goku and Vegeta are Super Saiyan God level in their base forms in Resurrection 'F'. I don't know how that would work if that's the case. It definitely works in Super, because Beerus is clearly using far less than 70% of his power when fighting Goku.
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Kblo247
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It doesn't imply it as much as it states there are two bases. Goku says he doesn't need traditional ssj to wipe the floor with Frieza in his final form. Then he clearly states and explains ssj blue is a power higher than a ssj God. Vegeta reiterates the statement later on in copy arc when he explains blue as a Saiyan needing the power of a ssj God to transform and surpass it with the blue form

Goku and Vegeta went into the time chamber. Vegeta stated why when they were at their limits would they do that? Then Vegeta goes on to note their improvements. We see Goku and Vegeta access their regular ki and ssj forms after the fact that they trained for three years. They simply made levels to this stuff

Goku
- Base
- SSJ
- SSJ2 (tested Zamasu and beat him)
- SSJ3 (beats Trunks)
- Saiyan Beyond God (fights Friezas final form and the Monaka suit Beerus)
- Blue
- Blue Kaioken

Vegeta
- Base
- SSJ (he beats Magetta and Frost with this level)
- SSJ2 (his mutation included as he's never called weaker, in fact Whis says he is stronger when he sees him again)
- Saiyan Beyond God (wrecks Gotenks and makes the ROSAT implode)
- Blue

Xenoverse 2 also confirmed it when they literally put a Saiyan beyond God Goku and Vegeta in slots where they cant transform but have nearly identical levels to red Goku
Edited by Kblo247, May 6 2017, 04:19 PM.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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Goku still transformed into the original Super Saiyan despite being godly powered in BOG. And as shown in Super, in order to invoke SSB you have to do rigorous ki control training so your ki never leaks.

This is just reiterating what was said in the movie. Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan. Though it doesn't state that the original Super Saiyan is locked off forever and that's shown to not be the case.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, May 6 2017, 05:18 PM.
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+ Ssj3vegito96
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Kblo247
May 6 2017, 04:00 PM
It doesn't imply it as much as it states there are two bases. Goku says he doesn't need traditional ssj to wipe the floor with Frieza in his final form. Then he clearly states and explains ssj blue is a power higher than a ssj God. Vegeta reiterates the statement later on in copy arc when he explains blue as a Saiyan needing the power of a ssj God to transform and surpass it with the blue form

Goku and Vegeta went into the time chamber. Vegeta stated why when they were at their limits would they do that? Then Vegeta goes on to note their improvements. We see Goku and Vegeta access their regular ki and ssj forms after the fact that they trained for three years. They simply made levels to this stuff

Goku
- Base
- SSJ
- SSJ2 (tested Zamasu and beat him)
- SSJ3 (beats Trunks)
- Saiyan Beyond God (fights Friezas final form and the Monaka suit Beerus)
- Blue
- Blue Kaioken

Vegeta
- Base
- SSJ (he beats Magetta and Frost with this level)
- SSJ2 (his mutation included as he's never called weaker, in fact Whis says he is stronger when he sees him again)
- Saiyan Beyond God (wrecks Gotenks and makes the ROSAT implode)
- Blue

Xenoverse 2 also confirmed it when they literally put a Saiyan beyond God Goku and Vegeta in slots where they cant transform but have nearly identical levels to red Goku
Those levels aren't making sense to me. I think like supersaiyangodgogeta said, ssj doesn't just become ssjb when they utilize ssjg.

There's no way trunks got his a*** handed by ssj3 goku(assuming like you said ssj3 goku is always a level below saiyan beyond God) but then fights alongside ssjb goku and vegeta

Ssjb has to be ssjg+ssj+perfect ki control
IT'S CHEESE
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ekrolo2
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
May 6 2017, 05:18 PM
Goku still transformed into the original Super Saiyan despite being godly powered in BOG. And as shown in Super, in order to invoke SSB you have to do rigorous ki control training so your ki never leaks.

This is just reiterating what was said in the movie. Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan. Though it doesn't state that the original Super Saiyan is locked off forever and that's shown to not be the case.
So you think they're always God powered? I can't buy that, it makes too money characters like Piccolo and Future Trunks absurdly strong with no good justification for it.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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They have a fragment of God's power in their base forms which is why their much stronger than before. Though neither Goku or Vegeta are SSJG level in their base forms. If that were the case, Goku wouldn't have been equal to Gohan, he wouldn't have lost to Slim Boo and he wouldn't have been equal with Oob.
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Kblo247
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Ssj3vegito96
May 6 2017, 05:57 PM
Kblo247
May 6 2017, 04:00 PM
It doesn't imply it as much as it states there are two bases. Goku says he doesn't need traditional ssj to wipe the floor with Frieza in his final form. Then he clearly states and explains ssj blue is a power higher than a ssj God. Vegeta reiterates the statement later on in copy arc when he explains blue as a Saiyan needing the power of a ssj God to transform and surpass it with the blue form

Goku and Vegeta went into the time chamber. Vegeta stated why when they were at their limits would they do that? Then Vegeta goes on to note their improvements. We see Goku and Vegeta access their regular ki and ssj forms after the fact that they trained for three years. They simply made levels to this stuff

Goku
- Base
- SSJ
- SSJ2 (tested Zamasu and beat him)
- SSJ3 (beats Trunks)
- Saiyan Beyond God (fights Friezas final form and the Monaka suit Beerus)
- Blue
- Blue Kaioken

Vegeta
- Base
- SSJ (he beats Magetta and Frost with this level)
- SSJ2 (his mutation included as he's never called weaker, in fact Whis says he is stronger when he sees him again)
- Saiyan Beyond God (wrecks Gotenks and makes the ROSAT implode)
- Blue

Xenoverse 2 also confirmed it when they literally put a Saiyan beyond God Goku and Vegeta in slots where they cant transform but have nearly identical levels to red Goku
Those levels aren't making sense to me. I think like supersaiyangodgogeta said, ssj doesn't just become ssjb when they utilize ssjg.

There's no way trunks got his a*** handed by ssj3 goku(assuming like you said ssj3 goku is always a level below saiyan beyond God) but then fights alongside ssjb goku and vegeta

Ssjb has to be ssjg+ssj+perfect ki control
Trunks lost to a ssj3 Goku and then he largely just stopped a ssj2, Goku ssj2 tier zamasu. His father's ssj2 had surpassed everyone and enabled him to put up the best fight beerus had at the time. He while enraged wasn't able to really hurt Black but he did stab Zamasu.

He later on finds Ssj rage and is still weaker than Black, Goku, and his father. He only survives because they let him. He can be anywhere from Ssj God level to initial blue which Goku and Vegeta had leaped 10x over

I'm saying that they turn it on and off. I'm also saying I have them at approaching their old Cell and Buu Ssj levels with their natural base ki
Edited by Kblo247, May 6 2017, 07:49 PM.
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ekrolo2
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
May 6 2017, 07:16 PM
They have a fragment of God's power in their base forms which is why their much stronger than before. Though neither Goku or Vegeta are SSJG level in their base forms. If that were the case, Goku wouldn't have been equal to Gohan, he wouldn't have lost to Slim Boo and he wouldn't have been equal with Oob.
Still, having them always at a fixed point of higher base power creates problems with characters like Future Trunks. A guy who has no means of attaining SS2 Goku level power post-ritual apparently doing so thanks to.... jerking himself off, off-screen?
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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I find it very hard to believe that Goku is stacking his Super Saiyan forms on top of the God form he already absorbed and then adds SSGSS to his list of transformations on top of that. If the contention here is that Goku didn't become an SSGSS after merging with the power of Super Saiyan God, well, SSGSS is supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan God, so I don't see how that's a point of contention.

Regarding Trunks, he's already absurdly powerful whether we like it or not. Trunks managed to survive the same Kamehameha that knocked SSGSS Goku out, so I don't think there's a work around. If it helps, I just assume that Vegeta taught Trunks that "Quake of Fury" thing he used against Beerus, as it's implied that Vegeta kept the ability to do that after the Beerus saga. Plus, it'd make sense if the "Quake of Fury" thing and Super Saiyan Fury were linked.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyans
May 6 2017, 10:00 PM
I find it very hard to believe that Goku is stacking his Super Saiyan forms on top of the God form he already absorbed and then adds SSGSS to his list of transformations on top of that. If the contention here is that Goku didn't become an SSGSS after merging with the power of Super Saiyan God, well, SSGSS is supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan God, so I don't see how that's a point of contention.

Regarding Trunks, he's already absurdly powerful whether we like it or not. Trunks managed to survive the same Kamehameha that knocked SSGSS Goku out, so I don't think there's a work around. If it helps, I just assume that Vegeta taught Trunks that "Quake of Fury" thing he used against Beerus, as it's implied that Vegeta kept the ability to do that after the Beerus saga. Plus, it'd make sense if the "Quake of Fury" thing and Super Saiyan Fury were linked.
How can you teach someone something that's essentially a rage boost?
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Yu Narukami
May 6 2017, 10:19 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
May 6 2017, 10:00 PM
I find it very hard to believe that Goku is stacking his Super Saiyan forms on top of the God form he already absorbed and then adds SSGSS to his list of transformations on top of that. If the contention here is that Goku didn't become an SSGSS after merging with the power of Super Saiyan God, well, SSGSS is supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan God, so I don't see how that's a point of contention.

Regarding Trunks, he's already absurdly powerful whether we like it or not. Trunks managed to survive the same Kamehameha that knocked SSGSS Goku out, so I don't think there's a work around. If it helps, I just assume that Vegeta taught Trunks that "Quake of Fury" thing he used against Beerus, as it's implied that Vegeta kept the ability to do that after the Beerus saga. Plus, it'd make sense if the "Quake of Fury" thing and Super Saiyan Fury were linked.
How can you teach someone something that's essentially a rage boost?
It's not just a rage boost, as episode 16 would imply. It seems to be a form in its own right.
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CameronBZH
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This is pretty how I think of their power, basically they have either saiyan power or their god power, SSB being the only mixture of the two. Basically, in their golden forms Goku and Vegeta are just toying around. This is why they normally can't transform to SSB when they are already SSJ

Goku:
SSJ3 > SS2 > SSJ > Base
Or
SSBK > SSB > Saiyan Beyond God > BasE

Vegeta:
SSJ3 (I'm sure he can become one) > SSJ2 > SS1 > Base
Or
SSB > Saiyan Beyond God > Base
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That doesnt explain that how could base vegeta manhandle ssj3 gotenks while ssj goku had problem with ssj gohan.



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Kblo247
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Geralt of Rivia
May 8 2017, 12:22 PM
That doesnt explain that how could base vegeta manhandle ssj3 gotenks while ssj goku had problem with ssj gohan.


Different division of his power before going blue? He has less forms without ssj3. Goku's power has 4 layers before going blue, his has 3
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